Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
5 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,815 Year: 3,072/9,624 Month: 917/1,588 Week: 100/223 Day: 11/17 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Scriptural evidence that Jesus is Messiah:
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 136 of 304 (673811)
09-23-2012 6:22 PM
Reply to: Message 134 by jaywill
09-23-2012 6:10 PM


Re: Let's look at them in order.
jaywill writes:
" ... and they shall call His name Emmanuel."
You cite above the text from Matthew. But the question is whether Isaiah is fulfilled prophesy.
Isaiah 7:14.
KJV
quote:
Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.
NIV
quote:
Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel.
The prophecy in Isaiah is about someone that the virgin will call Immanuel.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.
It's not too late to register to vote. State Registration Deadlines

This message is a reply to:
 Message 134 by jaywill, posted 09-23-2012 6:10 PM jaywill has not replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 137 of 304 (673812)
09-23-2012 6:29 PM
Reply to: Message 133 by Dr Adequate
09-23-2012 1:02 PM


Re: Let's look at them in order.
Yes, but if there was a "prophecy" stating that you'd call him Biff Rocco, then you would call him Biff Rocco, thus making the "prophecy" true.
I focus my attention on the prophecy that we know about. What you can cook up off the cuff with cleverness, is of no concern to me.
You'd be writing things like: "There is a classic hymn which has been sung for probably over a centry - "Hark the Herald Angels Sing." That song sung by millions has a line in it refering to "Jesus Our Biff Rocco"." Well, it's not a real prophecy if you have to go out of your way to fulfill it.
You do not know the word of God or the ways of God well.
If you read the book of Daniel you will see that Daniel studied the prophecies of Jeremiah concerning the 70 year captivity. He did not simply passively wait. He cooperated with God in powerful and regular prayer.
Often God and man work together in a smooth coordination - a coordinated cooperation. If your idea is that all fulfillment of prophecy is accompanied by 100% passivity on man's part, you have not noticed many things in the Bible.
Now, granted, sometime man's initiative is not according to God's way. But other times the prophecy is accompanied by coordination and cooperation on behalf of a trusting and believing people of God.
Read Exodus again. The Hebrews had to cooperate in faith with Moses to have the prophecy fulfilled that they would come out of Egypt.
But besides that, it doesn't fulfill the prophecy. Isaiah says that the woman who bears the child shall name him Immanuel.
Okay, it says "the virgin will ... call his name Immanuel." (Jeremiah 7:14)
Yes, there is the little difference in Matthew's references - "Behold, the virgin shall be with child ... they shall call His name Emmanuel." (Matt. 1:23)
I don't think this is a show stopper. I think it exposes that some people are experts at missing the point. Probably, Mary was the first in a number to call her son that. She may have called Him that before He was born.
Well, she didn't, did she?
There is no record in the New Testament of her calling Him thus.
It doesn't say "centuries later someone will write a hymn calling him Immanuel", it says: "therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign: a maiden is with child and she will bear a son, and will call his name Immanuel."
I am sure that before Wesley wrote that hymn lovers of Christ had long before refered to Him as Immanuel. The key word here is "lovers". In the intimacy of love you may call your dear spouse things which others do not hear. You hear. She or he hears. And God hears. Maybe some children in the household hear.
Why should I depend on those who have no love for Jesus to complain that "He was never called Emmanuel !!" ? Get around those who loved Him over the last 20 centries. I know you would hear Him be called ALL that the Bible uses to designate Him, and some.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 133 by Dr Adequate, posted 09-23-2012 1:02 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 139 by Dr Adequate, posted 09-24-2012 12:41 PM jaywill has replied
 Message 140 by ringo, posted 09-24-2012 12:46 PM jaywill has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 138 of 304 (673869)
09-24-2012 12:33 PM
Reply to: Message 131 by jaywill
09-23-2012 4:19 AM


Re: Let's look at them in order.
jaywill writes:
The concept of Jesus being God incarnate starts with the man Jesus and how He LIVED, how He acted, how He spoke and rose from the dead.
His personality initiated the belief in us that He is God with us. So the beginning of the so called circle is the testimony born by the man from Nazarath - Jesus.
It should be obvious that MOST (if not all) of the believers FIRST believed His person. Then after His resurrection He opened their minds to understand that the law and prophets and psalms had spoke of Him.
But whether believing before His acts (as one priest and prophetess or John the Baptist or Joseph and Mary) or those believing after His 3 year ministry including His death and resurrection, both groups believed because of revelation from God.
You seem to have missed an important word in my post: YOU. I was talking about YOU, not the people who knew Jesus personally when He was alive. YOU know nothing about Him except what THEY claim.
I said that YOU decided first that He was the son of God and then YOU went looking for Old Testament prophecies to back up the belief that YOU already had.
THEIR thinking isn't circular. YOURS is.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 131 by jaywill, posted 09-23-2012 4:19 AM jaywill has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 139 of 304 (673870)
09-24-2012 12:41 PM
Reply to: Message 137 by jaywill
09-23-2012 6:29 PM


Re: Let's look at them in order.
Okay, it says "the virgin will ... call his name Immanuel." (Jeremiah 7:14)
Right, but she actually named him Jesus.
Now, you can imagine that Immanuel was one of her pet names for him, but then again you can imagine that Biff Rocco was one her her pet names for him. The fact is that with no evidence for this, you can't claim it as an example of fulfilled prophecy.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 137 by jaywill, posted 09-23-2012 6:29 PM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 142 by jaywill, posted 09-24-2012 4:27 PM Dr Adequate has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 140 of 304 (673871)
09-24-2012 12:46 PM
Reply to: Message 137 by jaywill
09-23-2012 6:29 PM


Re: Let's look at them in order.
jaywill writes:
If your idea is that all fulfillment of prophecy is accompanied by 100% passivity on man's part, you have not noticed many things in the Bible.
You have that backwards again. It's true that prophecy would be worthless if people did nothing as a result but the point of (most) prohecy is to get people to prevent the fulfilment. They're supposed to stop what they're doing or God won't protect them from the Assyrians, for example.
quote:
Isa 7:16-17 For before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good, the land that thou abhorrest shall be forsaken of both her kings. The LORD shall bring upon thee, and upon thy people, and upon thy father's house, days that have not come, from the day that Ephraim departed from Judah; even the king of Assyria.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 137 by jaywill, posted 09-23-2012 6:29 PM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 141 by jaywill, posted 09-24-2012 4:17 PM ringo has replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 141 of 304 (673884)
09-24-2012 4:17 PM
Reply to: Message 140 by ringo
09-24-2012 12:46 PM


Re: Let's look at them in order.
quote:
You have that backwards again. It's true that prophecy would be worthless if people did nothing as a result but the point of (most) prohecy is to get people to prevent the fulfilment. They're supposed to stop what they're doing or God won't protect them from the Assyrians, for example.
  —ringo
This seems to assume that "most prophecy" is prediction of negative things. Prophecy is not always warning of impending punishment.
In the case that it is concerning punishment, those who stop sinning may postpost the punishment to another generation. They have the good fortune of not suffering the punishment. After they have passed away, it comes on a subsequent unrepentant generation.
In the case that they do not repent, the punishment might come in their generation.
God can spare a people by postponing the negative prophecy as a result of thier repentance.
On a more positive note we have the example of Joseph's dreams in the book of Genesis. He rose to reign over his father and brothers because of his godly integrity and steadfast faith in his God.
Do not think that Joseph had no other choices before him after he had been sold into Egyptian slavery.
So I don't view God's prophecy as the same as abject fatalism.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 140 by ringo, posted 09-24-2012 12:46 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 143 by ringo, posted 09-24-2012 4:52 PM jaywill has replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 142 of 304 (673886)
09-24-2012 4:27 PM
Reply to: Message 139 by Dr Adequate
09-24-2012 12:41 PM


Re: Let's look at them in order.
Now, you can imagine that Immanuel was one of her pet names for him, but then again you can imagine that Biff Rocco was one her her pet names for him. The fact is that with no evidence for this, you can't claim it as an example of fulfilled prophecy.
I CAN do a lot of things. My concern is not with what I CAN do. My concern is what I know has taken place.
Christ has certainly been called Emmanuel.
Is this your major objection to wanting to believe that Jesus is the Messiah ? Is it in your top three reasons for not believing in Jesus the Messiah ?
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 139 by Dr Adequate, posted 09-24-2012 12:41 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 146 by Dr Adequate, posted 09-24-2012 8:11 PM jaywill has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 143 of 304 (673892)
09-24-2012 4:52 PM
Reply to: Message 141 by jaywill
09-24-2012 4:17 PM


Re: Let's look at them in order.
jaywill writes:
Prophecy is not always warning of impending punishment.
It was in the specific case we're discussing though, wasn't it? First God would slap down Assyria to show that He was in charge. Then the impliction is that if the people didn't behave, He'd turn Assyria loose again. There wasn't much scope there for the people to work toward fulfilment, was there?
jaywll writes:
So I don't view God's prophecy as the same as abject fatalism.
As I said, it's usually about avoiding "fate". It is about something positive that you can do to make your life better. It isn't about phonying up the results to make it look like it was fulfilled, which seems to be what you're suggesting.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 141 by jaywill, posted 09-24-2012 4:17 PM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 144 by jaywill, posted 09-24-2012 7:46 PM ringo has replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 144 of 304 (673919)
09-24-2012 7:46 PM
Reply to: Message 143 by ringo
09-24-2012 4:52 PM


Re: Let's look at them in order.
Let's take the example of Jesus fulfilling the prophecy of Isaiah 61:1-2. In this case Christ was in perfect synchronization with the prophecy. His doing and the prediction rendevous precisely.
quote:
And He [Jesus] came to Nazareth, where He had been brought up, and according to His custom He entered on the Sabbath day into the synogogue and stood up to read.
And the scroll of the prophet Isaiah was handed to Him. And He unrolled the scroll and found the place where it was written "The Spirit of the Lord is upon Me, because He has anointed Me to announce the gospel to the poor; He has sent Me to proclaim releasee to the captives, and recovery of sight to the blind, to send away in release those who are oppressed, to proclaim the acceptable your of the Lord ...
And when He rolled up the scroll and gave it back to the attendant, He sat down. And the eyes of all in the synogogue were fixed on Him. And He began to say, Today this Scripture has been fulfilled in your hearing.
And all bore witness to Him and marveled at the words of grace proceeding out of His mouth, and they said, Is not this Joseph's son? (Luke 4:16-22)

  —Luke
The volitional act of Jesus and the fulfillment of the prophecy corresponded together perfectly. He was really the Word which became flesh.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 143 by ringo, posted 09-24-2012 4:52 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 145 by jar, posted 09-24-2012 8:00 PM jaywill has replied
 Message 148 by ringo, posted 09-25-2012 12:20 PM jaywill has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 145 of 304 (673920)
09-24-2012 8:00 PM
Reply to: Message 144 by jaywill
09-24-2012 7:46 PM


Re: Let's look at them in order.
Except of course that Isaiah 61 1-2 is Not a prophecy.
Here it is in context:
quote:
61 The Spirit of the Lord God is upon Me,
Because the Lord has anointed Me
To preach good tidings to the poor;
He has sent Me to heal the brokenhearted,
To proclaim liberty to the captives,
And the opening of the prison to those who are bound;
2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord,
And the day of vengeance of our God;
To comfort all who mourn,
3 To console those who mourn in Zion,
To give them beauty for ashes,
The oil of joy for mourning,
The garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness;
That they may be called trees of righteousness,
The planting of the Lord, that He may be glorified.
4 And they shall rebuild the old ruins,
They shall raise up the former desolations,
And they shall repair the ruined cities,
The desolations of many generations.
5 Strangers shall stand and feed your flocks,
And the sons of the foreigner
Shall be your plowmen and your vinedressers.
6 But you shall be named the priests of the Lord,
They shall call you the servants of our God.
You shall eat the riches of the Gentiles,
And in their glory you shall boast.
7 Instead of your shame you shall have double honor,
And instead of confusion they shall rejoice in their portion.
Therefore in their land they shall possess double;
Everlasting joy shall be theirs.
8 For I, the Lord, love justice;
I hate robbery for burnt offering;
I will direct their work in truth,
And will make with them an everlasting covenant.
9 Their descendants shall be known among the Gentiles,
And their offspring among the people.
All who see them shall acknowledge them,
That they are the posterity whom the Lord has blessed.
10 I will greatly rejoice in the Lord,
My soul shall be joyful in my God;
For He has clothed me with the garments of salvation,
He has covered me with the robe of righteousness,
As a bridegroom decks himself with ornaments,
And as a bride adorns herself with her jewels.
11 For as the earth brings forth its bud,
As the garden causes the things that are sown in it to spring forth,
So the Lord God will cause righteousness and praise to spring forth before all the nations.
To take just the first two verses is quote mining, taking material out of context.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 144 by jaywill, posted 09-24-2012 7:46 PM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 150 by jaywill, posted 09-25-2012 12:46 PM jar has replied
 Message 153 by jaywill, posted 09-25-2012 1:17 PM jar has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 146 of 304 (673921)
09-24-2012 8:11 PM
Reply to: Message 142 by jaywill
09-24-2012 4:27 PM


Re: Let's look at them in order.
I CAN do a lot of things. My concern is not with what I CAN do. My concern is what I know has taken place.
Christ has certainly been called Emmanuel.
But you have no evidence that his mother named him Immanuel, which is what the prophecy actually says.
Is this your major objection to wanting to believe that Jesus is the Messiah ? Is it in your top three reasons for not believing in Jesus the Messiah ?
No, it's my major objection to the claim that this is an example of fulfilled prophecy.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 142 by jaywill, posted 09-24-2012 4:27 PM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 147 by jaywill, posted 09-25-2012 12:17 PM Dr Adequate has not replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 147 of 304 (673967)
09-25-2012 12:17 PM
Reply to: Message 146 by Dr Adequate
09-24-2012 8:11 PM


Re: Let's look at them in order.
No, it's my major objection to the claim that this is an example of fulfilled prophecy.
Could you consider that it might be an example, in this regard ?
We do not see Mary addressing her child as Emmanuel. Nowhere is it recorded that the word "Emmanuel" came out of her mouth in refenrence to her child.
But, she did become a disciple of this one (Acts 1:14). She most likely contributed to some of the memories about her experience, which were used by the Gospel writers.
Ie. "But Mary kept all these things and pondered them in her heart." (Luke 2:19)
I think it reasonable to assume Luke knew that, because Mary had communicated many of her recollections and memories to the evangelist in the writing of the gospel.
Being a disciple of Jesus, she more than considered this child to be just Jesus of Nazareth among us. She considered Him to be God with us. I mean she was a typical Christian disciple. And Thomas confessed that Jesus was his Lord and his God. (John 20:28) -
"Thomas answered and said to Him, My Lord and my God! Jesus said to him, Because you have seen Me, you have believed. "
Thomas was not corrected or rebuked for refering to Jesus as his God. The other typical disciples were there and took this as basic teaching from their Master. Mary likely also believed Jesus was also her Lord and God.
In view of this, would you consider it reasonable to believe that Mary the mother of Jesus, believed that her child was God with us - Emmanuel ?
Do you think Mary would have streneously objected to songs about Jesus calling Him Emmanuel ?
My opinion, is that while I can concede no record of Jesus being addressed as Emmanuel, He was to them Emmanuel - "God with us".
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 146 by Dr Adequate, posted 09-24-2012 8:11 PM Dr Adequate has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 148 of 304 (673968)
09-25-2012 12:20 PM
Reply to: Message 144 by jaywill
09-24-2012 7:46 PM


Re: Let's look at them in order.
jaywill writes:
The volitional act of Jesus and the fulfillment of the prophecy corresponded together perfectly.
So you're saying that Jesus deliberately concocted a phony fulfilment. That's like me "prophesying" that your house will be vandalized and then throwing a brick through the window to fulfill the "prophecy".
Ideally, a prophecy should be fulfilled by somebody who's never heard of the prophecy - a double-blind system.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 144 by jaywill, posted 09-24-2012 7:46 PM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 149 by jaywill, posted 09-25-2012 12:31 PM ringo has replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 149 of 304 (673969)
09-25-2012 12:31 PM
Reply to: Message 148 by ringo
09-25-2012 12:20 PM


Re: Let's look at them in order.
quote:
So you're saying that Jesus deliberately concocted a phony fulfilment.
I do believe that Jesus deliberately did something to fulfill and confirm the prophecy. I don't think there was anything "phony" about.
What it spoke of Him, He began to actually DO. Had He not followed through, then we might consider His action phony. As it stands, He was realistic.
quote:
That's like me "prophesying" that your house will be vandalized and then throwing a brick through the window to fulfill the "prophecy".
Ideally, a prophecy should be fulfilled by somebody who's never heard of the prophecy - a double-blind system.
We have examples of BOTH in the Bible. You see, often, just when you think you have God all neatly confined to your box like limitations, He acts in a surprising manner.
The stipulation that you are demanding, is ALSO evidenced in Scripture. But we ALSO have instances like man COOPERATING with God for the fulfillment of His plans.
Perhaps this disturbs you. But it is quite marvelous that man and God should coordinate together in such a way of mutual operation.
Both kinds of fulfillment of prophecy are evidenced in the Bible.
We just have to be enlarged in capacity to appreciate God's varied ways of working.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 148 by ringo, posted 09-25-2012 12:20 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 151 by ringo, posted 09-25-2012 12:48 PM jaywill has replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 150 of 304 (673971)
09-25-2012 12:46 PM
Reply to: Message 145 by jar
09-24-2012 8:00 PM


Re: Let's look at them in order.
Thank you for the long quotation.
As I said before, I sympathize with your thought, but only so much. My sympathy with your complaint is not without bounds.
Sure, some of the "fulfilled prophecies" look like certain words are isolated to make a case. I agree that that is the appearance of some of the passages.
And as I also previously said, God gave His people a heads up. He told them that in their self pride and stubburness, He would sometimes deliver truth to them in a kind of pieces of the puzzle manner - Here a little, over there a little, line upon line, precept upon precept.
God has His ways. And sometimes He works so that man has nothing left to boast in in himself. He will sometimes cause you to feel like a trusting child.
I perfectly understand your problem. But the Bible says that God spoke to us in the prophets in not just one way, but in MANY ways.
"God, having spoken of old in many portions and in many ways to the fathers in the prophets, Has at the last of these days spoken to us in the Son ..." (Hebrews 1:1)
I would be suspicious if you believe in the Son of God but can brag and boast about your smarts and intelligence. Is your pride still so intact? Is your self reliance still strutting around and boasting?
But if God has opened your spiritual eyes and you are left humble - trusting, you may consider that God has really given you something -
"The hungry He has filled with good things, and the rich He has sent away empty." (Luke 1:53)
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 145 by jar, posted 09-24-2012 8:00 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 152 by jar, posted 09-25-2012 12:58 PM jaywill has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024