Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
1 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,817 Year: 3,074/9,624 Month: 919/1,588 Week: 102/223 Day: 0/13 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   What if Satan reformed?
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 151 of 234 (667938)
07-13-2012 11:41 PM
Reply to: Message 150 by ringo
07-13-2012 12:00 PM


Re: The Gospel of Grace Necessitates the Devil
Ringo writes:
Why would God "have" to deal with people who tried to go without Him?
Humanity has arguably not learned how to be at peace and be humble. Wars are as old as human history, as are murders, rapes, child molestations, and greed of various sorts.
Humans arguably need God.
In addition, as per topic, Satan may voluntarily "reform" only if he sees his potential subjects reform themselves. In thousands of years of human history, we apparently have not learned much of anything.
Edited by Phat, : added

This message is a reply to:
 Message 150 by ringo, posted 07-13-2012 12:00 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 152 by ringo, posted 07-14-2012 12:12 PM Phat has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 152 of 234 (667960)
07-14-2012 12:12 PM
Reply to: Message 151 by Phat
07-13-2012 11:41 PM


Re: The Gospel of Grace Necessitates the Devil
Phat writes:
Humanity has arguably not learned how to be at peace and be humble. Wars are as old as human history, as are murders, rapes, child molestations, and greed of various sorts.
Humans arguably need God.
Non sequitur. Humans who "have" God have also not learned how to be at peace and be humble. Having God doesn't seem to help.
Phat writes:
In addition, as per topic, Satan may voluntarily "reform" only if he sees his potential subjects reform themselves.
As I already mentioned, "God's plan" would make more sense if Satan was the supreme example of sinner in parallel to Jesus as the supreme example of saint. His repentence would be the supreme example for human repentence. The theme of every sermon would be, "If God can forgive Satan, He can forgive you."
Edited by ringo, : Speling.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 151 by Phat, posted 07-13-2012 11:41 PM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 153 of 234 (673785)
09-22-2012 11:05 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by Archer Opteryx
08-31-2006 4:02 PM


Re: freethinking = evil?
2006 Phat writes:
I know it sounds cliche and a bit simplified, but IMB, there are two spirits.
1) The Holy Spirit
2) The spirit of rebellion (freethinkers! )
Archer writes:
Why would freethinking 'default' toward evil?
Freethinkers want to follow truth where it leads. Why wouldn't that path 'default' toward the holy?
This was such a good discussion!
I have not thought out these beliefs in awhile, so by discussing them maybe I can learn a thing or two.
  • The word "reform" is similar to the concept of repenting, or being born again. If satan reformed, the only "enemy" that would be left would be ourselves.
    To me, the concept of freethinking implies that an individual never wants to admit that any "other" is right and that by reserving the right to ask endless questions and avoid committing to any final answer or truth, they in effect become their own authority. The way that I was taught to understand it all, we are never meant to know perfection unless we surrender to it and let it have us.

  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 27 by Archer Opteryx, posted 08-31-2006 4:02 PM Archer Opteryx has not replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 157 by hooah212002, posted 09-25-2012 5:25 PM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 154 of 234 (673965)
    09-25-2012 10:34 AM
    Reply to: Message 85 by ringo
    09-14-2006 6:46 PM


    Re: The Gospel of Grace Necessitates the Devil
    Ringo,replying to viewfromthetop writes:
    Why would God create a program that was "diametrically opposed" to himself? (In my experience, programs are quite capable on their own of doing the opposite of what I want. )
    Keywords: on their own
    God created programs that had a free will. I still believe that God never created evil directly. He created/allowed it metaphorically and evil became an actuality when free-willed creatures, and Lucifer chose it. Lucifer/Satan became unable to "unchoose"....which gets us back to what this topic is all about.
    What if Satan could choose to reform?
    As an additional thought, why is it that humans, who already have the capability to reform, occasionally and persistently refuse such an option?
    Edited by Phat, : broken link
    Edited by Phat, : fixed link

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 85 by ringo, posted 09-14-2006 6:46 PM ringo has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 155 by ringo, posted 09-25-2012 12:36 PM Phat has replied

      
    ringo
    Member (Idle past 412 days)
    Posts: 20940
    From: frozen wasteland
    Joined: 03-23-2005


    Message 155 of 234 (673970)
    09-25-2012 12:36 PM
    Reply to: Message 154 by Phat
    09-25-2012 10:34 AM


    Re: The Gospel of Grace Necessitates the Devil
    Phat writes:
    As an additional thought, why is it that humans, who already have the capability to reform, occasionally and persistently refuse such an option?
    Reality isn't black and white. "Reforming" means deciding to choose whiter shades of gray.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 154 by Phat, posted 09-25-2012 10:34 AM Phat has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 156 by Phat, posted 09-25-2012 2:47 PM ringo has seen this message but not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 156 of 234 (673997)
    09-25-2012 2:47 PM
    Reply to: Message 155 by ringo
    09-25-2012 12:36 PM


    Re: The Gospel of Grace Necessitates the Devil
    Ringo writes:
    Reality isn't black and white. "Reforming" means deciding to choose whiter shades of gray.
    Yes, this would go in line with the belief that trying to do ones best every day is all that we can do. The other side would maintain that the very best we humans can do never measures up and that since we can never be 100% we need to trust the One (Gods Son) who legend has it never sinned.
    Even if we assume that trusting in Jesus and allowing the communion of such a relationship to exist is the way to go, I think it is wise to try and do our best and embrace the reality of personal responsibility.
    Ringo writes:
    Humans who "have" God have also not learned how to be at peace and be humble. Having God doesn't seem to help.
    Agreed. Faith without works is dead.
    In order to discuss the possible idea of satan reforming, we must shine the spotlight on ourselves, since satan is not around to grant an interview.
    Ringo writes:
    The stereotypical Satan chooses to lie for his own purposes, just iike we do.
    In essence, we are the stereotypical satans and jesus's. You mentioned before that we each have in us both good and evil. One or the other is in control at any given moment. To reform implies that we consciously allow the inner jesus to manifest more often and the inner satan to sit down and shut up. I find that I cant even want to be like jesus, however. I would never give away everything(or even nearly everything) to help the poor. I find it hard to love the unlovely. (I can love the lovely just fine, though it often becomes lust and desire rather than selfish giving of myself with no hope of a reward) My point is that in my own personal life, the inner satan seems not to want to give up all control and reform.
    Archer writes:
    Imagine that Satan has a change of heart and becomes the most holy, angelic, benevolent spirit there is. Instead of putting evil thoughts into people's heads, he starts putting holy thoughts into them. What now?
    He would be doing the same thing that Jesus does...although it could be argued that Jesus never forces influence on anyone. Some would say that Jesus or the Holy Spirit will give you an impartation of Holy thoughts and will give you strength. Others would deny such a belief.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 155 by ringo, posted 09-25-2012 12:36 PM ringo has seen this message but not replied

      
    hooah212002
    Member (Idle past 802 days)
    Posts: 3193
    Joined: 08-12-2009


    Message 157 of 234 (674004)
    09-25-2012 5:25 PM
    Reply to: Message 153 by Phat
    09-22-2012 11:05 PM


    Re: freethinking = evil?
    To me, the concept of freethinking implies that an individual never wants to admit that any "other" is right and that by reserving the right to ask endless questions and avoid committing to any final answer or truth, they in effect become their own authority. The way that I was taught to understand it all, we are never meant to know perfection unless we surrender to it and let it have us.
    Well then, i guess it's a good thing the word/concept of "freethinking/freethought" isn't some nebulous idea without a definition and up for subjective interpretation. No sir, it has a meaning. You should try looking it up since you are WAY off.

    "Science is interesting, and if you don't agree you can fuck off." -Dawkins

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 153 by Phat, posted 09-22-2012 11:05 PM Phat has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 158 by Phat, posted 09-26-2012 10:33 AM hooah212002 has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 158 of 234 (674066)
    09-26-2012 10:33 AM
    Reply to: Message 157 by hooah212002
    09-25-2012 5:25 PM


    Re: freethinking = evil?
    hooah212002 writes:
    Well then, i guess it's a good thing the word/concept of "freethinking/freethought" isn't some nebulous idea without a definition and up for subjective interpretation. No sir, it has a meaning. You should try looking it up since you are WAY off.
    OK I will.
    quote:
    The term was originally popularized by Anthony Collins (1676-1729), a confidant of John Locke who wrote many pamphlets and books attacking traditional religion. He even belonged to a group called The Freethinkers which published a journal entitled The Free-Thinker.
    Collins used the term as essentially a synonym for anyone who opposes organized religion and wrote his most famous book, The Discourse of Free Thinking (1713) to explain why he felt that way. He went beyond describing freethinking as desirable and declared it to be a moral obligation:
    Because he who thinks freely does his best toward being right, and consequently does all that God, who can require nothing more of any Man than that he should do his best, can require of him.
    As should be obvious, Collins did not equate freethinking with atheism he retained his membership in the Anglican church. It wasn’t belief in a god which attracted his ire, but instead people who simply take the Opinions they have imbib’d form their Grandmothers, Mothers or Priests.
      —About.com
    I like that last part. Maybe I was a bit too hasty vilifying freethinking.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 157 by hooah212002, posted 09-25-2012 5:25 PM hooah212002 has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 159 by Theodoric, posted 09-26-2012 10:58 AM Phat has replied
     Message 163 by hooah212002, posted 09-26-2012 2:23 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

      
    Theodoric
    Member
    Posts: 9076
    From: Northwest, WI, USA
    Joined: 08-15-2005
    Member Rating: 3.7


    (1)
    Message 159 of 234 (674069)
    09-26-2012 10:58 AM
    Reply to: Message 158 by Phat
    09-26-2012 10:33 AM


    Re: freethinking = evil?
    or you could use a dictionary to see how the word is currently used. I mean that would make sense to me, but maybe not to you.
    quote:
    Freethinking - a person who forms opinions on the basis of reason, independent of authority or tradition, especially a person whose religious opinions differ from established belief.

    Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
    "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 158 by Phat, posted 09-26-2012 10:33 AM Phat has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 160 by Phat, posted 09-26-2012 11:21 AM Theodoric has not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 160 of 234 (674073)
    09-26-2012 11:21 AM
    Reply to: Message 159 by Theodoric
    09-26-2012 10:58 AM


    Re: freethinking = evil?
    The point is that faith requires abandonment of logic and reason, to a degree. My original observation was that this(freethinking) is a default rebellion towards a potential, if unprovable or verifiable authority. My source disagreed, however, explaining that freethinking and faith can coexist.
    Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 159 by Theodoric, posted 09-26-2012 10:58 AM Theodoric has not replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 161 by Stile, posted 09-26-2012 11:59 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied
     Message 162 by ringo, posted 09-26-2012 12:28 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

      
    Stile
    Member
    Posts: 4295
    From: Ontario, Canada
    Joined: 12-02-2004


    (1)
    Message 161 of 234 (674078)
    09-26-2012 11:59 AM
    Reply to: Message 160 by Phat
    09-26-2012 11:21 AM


    Putting something together
    Phat writes:
    The way that I was taught to understand it all, we are never meant to know perfection unless we surrender to it and let it have us.
    Message 153
    Phat writes:
    The point is that faith requires abandonment of logic and reason, to a degree.
    Faith can be the most powerful motivation known to humans.
    I agree that faith requires some sort of abandonment of logic/reason at some level.
    I wouldn't say we can't know perfection without surrenderring to it. That seems rather cult-like and scammy.
    But, perhaps you're trying to say something along the lines of not knowing perfect-dedication unless you have a certain amount of faith to override any logical/reasonable concerns? or something like that.
    That... I also don't agree with... but I will agree that it can match the most powerful, highest levels of dedication/motivation known to humans.
    Faith can be a very good thing, if used for good things like love and caring for your spouse, family or friends.
    Faith can also be a very bad thing, if misplaced and misguided.
    The problem is identifying when it's good or bad. Making this identification takes some reasoning and sometimes logical analysis. If your faith is overriding this... then you can easily get trapped in some bad-placed faith while thinking it's "really good" all along.
    In the context of this discussion, I would label "freethinking" as the reasoned/logical analysis of placing your faith in a good or bad idea.
    Faith with freethinking can make sure you end up only placing your faith in good things.
    Faith without freethinking may end up with faith in good things, but it has a much higher chance of unknowingly getting manipulated by our environment or other people into putting that faith into bad things... while all along thinking that your faith is in a good thing.
    Both levels of faith (either with the freethinking or without) are the same. Freethinking is simply a filter in front of the faith that ensures that no "bad-placed-faith" gets through. It does nothing to diminish the power of the faith itself. Faith will always contain a level of reason/logic abandonment, which is where it gets it's power from.
    Side note: I do also think that the motivational-power of faith can be matched (and sometimes exceeded) by the motivational-power of reasoned/logical analysis... but faith can be a lot faster (no education required)

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 160 by Phat, posted 09-26-2012 11:21 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

      
    ringo
    Member (Idle past 412 days)
    Posts: 20940
    From: frozen wasteland
    Joined: 03-23-2005


    (1)
    Message 162 of 234 (674082)
    09-26-2012 12:28 PM
    Reply to: Message 160 by Phat
    09-26-2012 11:21 AM


    Re: freethinking = evil?
    Phat writes:
    The point is that faith requires abandonment of logic and reason, to a degree.
    The worst kind of faith does. The worst kind of faith motivates people to doubt their own senses and reject reason entirely.
    The best kind of faith is applied only when logic and reason have abandoned you. As long as they're working, you should be using them. When they reach a dead end, then faith is your backup.
    Using faith indiscrimainately is like spraying a fire extinguisher around when there's no fire.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 160 by Phat, posted 09-26-2012 11:21 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

      
    hooah212002
    Member (Idle past 802 days)
    Posts: 3193
    Joined: 08-12-2009


    (2)
    Message 163 of 234 (674094)
    09-26-2012 2:23 PM
    Reply to: Message 158 by Phat
    09-26-2012 10:33 AM


    Re: freethinking = evil?
    You should make note that I suggested you find the meaning of the word, not how some guy used it 300 years ago. You should also make note that there is actually a very active freethought community alive and kicking in this day and age.
    Freethought in it's purest form is merely a word people use to describe themselves when they are free from the shackles of dogma. "Freethinkers" are those who allow themselves to think freely, as the name implies. Nowhere in the freethought community or usage of the word does it necessitate being actively against relgigion or faith. That is merely a byproduct of freethought. Once you open your mind and free yourself from religious dogma, one has a tendency to fade away from religion. This is why you religious types fear and vilify freethought unjustly.
    I shall make another suggestion: learn about what the freethought community is and what they seek to do. Freethought doesn't necessarily entail atheism, but any intellectually honest atheist is first a freethinker. The same with skepticism: one should be a skeptic first and an atheist second.
    Edited by hooah212002, : No reason given.

    "Science is interesting, and if you don't agree you can fuck off." -Dawkins

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 158 by Phat, posted 09-26-2012 10:33 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 164 of 234 (740163)
    11-02-2014 6:06 AM
    Reply to: Message 135 by ringo
    11-03-2006 7:29 PM


    Fallen Angel Reform School
    If Satan reformed,
    1. Would God forgive?
    2. Would evil disappear?
    3. How would you discern spirits if they all said the same thing?
    4. How would you get the memo?
    1) God would forgive, and all of humanity would begin to learn a valuable lesson.
    2)Evil would still potentially exist, but only for those who chose to actualize it. Humans would still be responsible for themselves.
    3) They would all become like Casper, the friendly ghost. no more scary ones.
    4) The memo is hypothetical. Does'nt God *talk* to us anyway?

    Saying, "I don't know," is the same as saying, "Maybe."~ZombieRingo
    If You Don't Stand For Something You Will Fall For Anything~Malcolm X

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 135 by ringo, posted 11-03-2006 7:29 PM ringo has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 165 by Tangle, posted 11-02-2014 8:26 AM Phat has replied
     Message 167 by Jon, posted 11-02-2014 9:48 AM Phat has not replied
     Message 172 by ringo, posted 11-02-2014 1:49 PM Phat has replied

      
    Tangle
    Member
    Posts: 9489
    From: UK
    Joined: 10-07-2011
    Member Rating: 4.9


    Message 165 of 234 (740167)
    11-02-2014 8:26 AM
    Reply to: Message 164 by Phat
    11-02-2014 6:06 AM


    Remind me, how many angels are on that pin
    Remind me, how many angels are on that pinhead?

    Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
    "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
    Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
    - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 164 by Phat, posted 11-02-2014 6:06 AM Phat has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 166 by Phat, posted 11-02-2014 8:30 AM Tangle has replied

      
    Newer Topic | Older Topic
    Jump to:


    Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

    ™ Version 4.2
    Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024