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Author Topic:   Scriptural evidence that Jesus is Messiah:
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 226 of 304 (674760)
10-02-2012 4:36 PM
Reply to: Message 225 by jaywill
10-02-2012 4:24 PM


Re: Contradictions in the Bible
Again with irrelevant quote mining.
We were talking about your attempted quote mine that was related to the Isaiah prophecy and it does stand up there as I demonstrated.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 225 by jaywill, posted 10-02-2012 4:24 PM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 227 by jaywill, posted 10-02-2012 4:43 PM jar has replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 227 of 304 (674761)
10-02-2012 4:43 PM
Reply to: Message 226 by jar
10-02-2012 4:36 PM


Re: Contradictions in the Bible
Again with irrelevant quote mining.
We were talking about your attempted quote mine that was related to the Isaiah prophecy and it does stand up there as I demonstrated.
Ah, but when you blow it, making a booboo, then its time to remind everbody what we were REALLY talking about.
Therefore the biased self serving national propoganda theory does nothing to help your case of failed prophesy here.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 226 by jar, posted 10-02-2012 4:36 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 228 by jar, posted 10-02-2012 5:10 PM jaywill has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 228 of 304 (674762)
10-02-2012 5:10 PM
Reply to: Message 227 by jaywill
10-02-2012 4:43 PM


Re: Contradictions in the Bible
jaywill writes:
Therefore the biased self serving national propoganda theory does nothing to help your case of failed prophesy here.
Are you really that dense?
The discussion is about fulfilled prophecy.
You asked for an example of fulfilled prophecy in Message 203 and I provided one in Message 204 and again in Message 208 at which point you started your normal Gish gallop, down the rabbit hole, move them goal posts tap dance.
And now you have the nerve to try to palm the pea yet again and pretend I was talking about failed prophecy?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 227 by jaywill, posted 10-02-2012 4:43 PM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 229 by jaywill, posted 10-02-2012 6:58 PM jar has replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 229 of 304 (674765)
10-02-2012 6:58 PM
Reply to: Message 228 by jar
10-02-2012 5:10 PM


Re: Contradictions in the Bible
Your tone is quickly approaching candidacy for ignore status with me.
Besides your brainstorms, I have been responding to Ringo, Dr. Adaquate, Granny Magby at least.
If you have in that list of three, one post you think should get more attention tonight, which one? But I don't think you have been getting neglected by me.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 228 by jar, posted 10-02-2012 5:10 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 230 by jar, posted 10-02-2012 7:18 PM jaywill has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 230 of 304 (674766)
10-02-2012 7:18 PM
Reply to: Message 229 by jaywill
10-02-2012 6:58 PM


Re: Contradictions in the Bible
You asked for an example of fulfilled prophecy in Message 203 and I provided one in Message 204 and again in Message 208.
It really is that simple.
AbE: and the prophecy has nothing top do with Jesus.
Edited by jar, : see AbE:

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 229 by jaywill, posted 10-02-2012 6:58 PM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 234 by jaywill, posted 10-03-2012 9:12 AM jar has replied
 Message 235 by jaywill, posted 10-03-2012 9:21 AM jar has replied
 Message 236 by jaywill, posted 10-03-2012 9:29 AM jar has replied

  
ramoss
Member (Idle past 612 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


(1)
Message 231 of 304 (674787)
10-03-2012 1:11 AM
Reply to: Message 215 by jaywill
10-02-2012 6:12 AM


Boy oh boy.. so many claims.. so much unrelated stuff.
Let's take a look at leviticus.. it's not a prophecy, and it is not a prophecy of cannibalism. Cannibalism existed before hand.
This is not a prophecy, at least not in the manner that Christians use it. THis is basically a provisional caution.. if you read chapter in context..... the writer of Leviticus is saying,.. obey God's commands, and you will prosper.. but if you don't obey him, and you deviate from his expectiations, these bad things will happen. It is not so much a 'prophecy', but a series of warnings of what will happen if your behavior is going to be bad. This is the threat of punishment, not of a prophecy..
Deuteronomy 28 is the same thing.. it is a list of 'these are the rewards you will get if you obey the lord, and these are the punishments you will receive if you disobey the lord. It's a 'prophecy' in so much it is a message from God (according to the author).. but it can't be 'full filled', since both the reward and the punishments are conditional. Do good, and good will come to you, else if you do bad, I'll punish you' type of details.. no "duel" prophecies.. and it has nothing to do with Jesus what so ever.. if you actually read it in context.
These appear to be imagery that the authors of the New Testament are yanking out of context, and trying to retrofit into a new theology by misapplying things.. that's not 'dual prophecy' at all.
The use that the authors of the New Testament put those passages is certainly not inherent in the passages themselves, in their original context.
This is the technique known as 'shoe horning' a prophecy into place, after the fact..
Edited by ramoss, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 215 by jaywill, posted 10-02-2012 6:12 AM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 243 by jaywill, posted 10-03-2012 11:08 AM ramoss has not replied
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Granny Magda
Member
Posts: 2462
From: UK
Joined: 11-12-2007
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 232 of 304 (674792)
10-03-2012 2:26 AM
Reply to: Message 224 by jaywill
10-02-2012 3:56 PM


It is not just your intellect that He seeks to gain. It is all your heart of loving emotion, confessing conscience, submissive will, as well as analytical intellect that He seeks to gain.
Well you are going to have to start with my intellect. Can you provide any criteria for fulfilled prophecy? Can you jaywill? Not waffle, not preaching, but actual criteria for fulfilled prophecy. If not, there is nothing to discuss here.
I don't read those passages about Cannabalism as practiced around the world. I think the specific referent is Israel.
I don't know how regularly Israel fell into Cannabalism. I don't think that regularly they did. And while the prediction may seem banal to you, the people involved applied it to rather immediate and pressing circumstances. It was more than once they had to consider the dire consequences of revolting against the worship of God.
You may feel that way, but nonetheless, given the lack of a specific timeframe, this passage fails as prophecy (not that it was ever intended as such anyway; it strikes me as more of a curse/warning than prophecy). It's too vague, too open ended. You need to do better than that. Pick your best example, don't waste time with this silly stuff.
I don't agree. Especially when it comes to Christ, to whom all the other godly figures in the Bible are only types, foreshadows, and pre-figures.
You have the worst case of Jesus-tinted sunglasses I've ever seen. Is there any part of the OT that you don't think is about Jesus?
All you do here is demonstrate to all just how criminally low you've set the bar for prophecy. If you are going to insist upon labelling half the OT as Jesus-prophecy, no-one is going to take you seriously.
Without some effort from you at pinning down your criteria for prophecy, I don't see how this conversation can progress.
Mutate and Survive

This message is a reply to:
 Message 224 by jaywill, posted 10-02-2012 3:56 PM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 233 by jaywill, posted 10-03-2012 8:52 AM Granny Magda has replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 233 of 304 (674805)
10-03-2012 8:52 AM
Reply to: Message 232 by Granny Magda
10-03-2012 2:26 AM


You have the worst case of Jesus-tinted sunglasses I've ever seen. Is there any part of the OT that you don't think is about Jesus?
I have New Testament lenses through which I view the whole Bible. The Old Testament is often like the picture. And the New Testament is like the caption underneath the picture.
This is the way it should be. Paul wrote about the examples given in the OT for benefit of the latter age saints:

"Now these things occured as examples to us, that we should not be ones who lust after evil things, even as they also lusted. Neither become idolaters, as some of them did ... etc." (1 Cor. 10:6,7)
He is speaking of the behavior of the Hebrews in the 40 year wilderness journey. The things that occured were examples to the new covenant saints believing in Christ.

"Now these things happened to them as an example, and they were written for our admonition, unto whom the ends of the ages have come." (v.9)
The Old Testament events often were examples for the NT saints and under God's sovereignty were "written for our adminition".
So to have "Christ tinted glasses" in reading the Bible is what the Apostle Paul admonishes of us.
I could say more about this in order to preemptively deal with objections I anticipate some would raise. But I'll stop with this much.
All you do here is demonstrate to all just how criminally low you've set the bar for prophecy. If you are going to insist upon labelling half the OT as Jesus-prophecy, no-one is going to take you seriously.
I didn't do that. I presented some examples of prophecy with dual fulfillment.
Now if you do not like the cannabalism instance, we can put that aside. The instance in First Samuel of two distinct events furnishing the writer's explanation of the source of the saying "Is Saul also among the prophets" is a good example the people of God recognizing God's promise fulfillment on more than one occasion.
First Samuel 10:10-12 and First Samuel 19:23,24
Without some effort from you at pinning down your criteria for prophecy, I don't see how this conversation can progress.
My main criteria is to compare the Matthew 1:22,23, which is explained as prophetic fulfillment of certain specific words, with a few other examples of such a thing.
I think that the example of Saul being promised by the prophet to be changed into another man because of the Spirit of God has its biblical fulfillment spoken of twice by Samauel -

" ... And the Spirit of Jehovah will rush upon you: and you will prophesy and be turned into another man." (1 Sam. 10:6)
1.) "And when all who had known him previously saw that now he was prophesying with the prophets, the people said one to another, What is this that has happened to the son of Kish? ...
(IE. he has turned into another man!) ... "Is Saul also among the prophets? And someone from there answered and said, And who is their father? Therefore it became a proverb, Is Saul also among the prophets? (1 Sam. 10)
2.) "So he [Saul] went there, toward Naioth in Ramah. And the Spirit of God came upon him as well, and he went on and prophesued until he came to Naioth in Ramah.
And he also stripped off his clothes and also prophesied before Samuel, and he lay naked aall that day and all that night, Therefore they say, Is Saul also among the prophets?" (1 Sam. 19)
This is close enough for me to accept the prophet's word about a virgin being with child ... Emmanuel, having a dual fulfillment in Isaiah's child and in the birth of the Son of God.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 232 by Granny Magda, posted 10-03-2012 2:26 AM Granny Magda has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 256 by Granny Magda, posted 10-04-2012 10:57 AM jaywill has replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 234 of 304 (674807)
10-03-2012 9:12 AM
Reply to: Message 230 by jar
10-02-2012 7:18 PM


Re: Contradictions in the Bible
Well.. it has to be unambiguous, and it has to be shown that it was considered a messianic prophecy BEFORE the l fulfillment, and it has to be translated properly and in context.
Matthew is not ambiguous in his words - "Now all this happened so that what was spoken by the Lord through the prophet might be fulfilled, SAYING, "Behold, the virgin shall be with child and shall bear a son, and they shall call His name Emmanuek" (which is translated, God with us.)).
The words are specific. He doesn't mention the 65 years of Isaiah 7:8. He does not mention Damascus or Samaria as in verse 8. He does not mention Ephraim. He does not mention Pekeh or Remaliah of the seventh chapter of Isaiah. He does not mention kurds and honey.
He specifically and unambiguosly singles out the words of verse 14 as having fulfillment in the virgin birth of Jesus from Mary.
There is some difference between "she will call" and "they will call". I regard that as trivial. It is close enough for me.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 230 by jar, posted 10-02-2012 7:18 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 239 by jar, posted 10-03-2012 9:39 AM jaywill has replied
 Message 259 by ramoss, posted 10-05-2012 3:33 PM jaywill has not replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 235 of 304 (674810)
10-03-2012 9:21 AM
Reply to: Message 230 by jar
10-02-2012 7:18 PM


Re: Contradictions in the Bible
The prophecies in Isaiah were fulfilled, and withing 20 years of their utterance as has been pointed out to you numerous times.
The point is that they do not have anything to do with Jesus.
The specific words that Matthew says are being fulfilled, VERSE 14, does prophetically have to do with the Son of God.
In a coming chapter 9 of Isaiah we are also told a child is born who is to be called Mighty God. So a child born with the name "God with us" - Emmanuel, basically reemerges in chapter 9.
God knows exactly what He wants to do. He is not groping around doing miscellaneous trivialities.
You simply do not appreciate how central to the divine revelation is the incarnation of God as a man.
Isaiah's son "Maher-shalalhash-baz" born of the young woman prophetess, Isaiah's wife, is a type. The greater antitype is the Son of God miraculously born of the virgin Mary.
Again, the specific words that Matthew singles out are in verse 14. So I cannot point to something done by the Assyrians in Ahaz's time to signal verse 14 cannot be applied to Jesus.
God is sovereign and God can apply it.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 230 by jar, posted 10-02-2012 7:18 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 237 by jar, posted 10-03-2012 9:33 AM jaywill has not replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 236 of 304 (674811)
10-03-2012 9:29 AM
Reply to: Message 230 by jar
10-02-2012 7:18 PM


Re: Contradictions in the Bible
Isaiah 7:7-9 and Isaiah 7:14-17.
The prophecy is that Israel and Aram were attacking Judah and the King of Judah feared they would win, but God sends a prophecy that Ahaz need not worry about them, they would get destroyed.
And that happened. Assyria conquered Israel (and carted off much of the population) and Aram and Ephraim but not Judah.
The Prophecy was fulfilled at that point.
Matthew does not refer to anything else in that chapter except the words in verse 14 -

"Now all this has happened so that what was spoken by the Lord through the prophet might be fulfilled, saying,
Behold, the virgin shall be with child and shall bear a son, and they shall call His name Emmanuel" (which is translated, God with us)."
Those are the only words I see Matthew refering to as predicting the virgin birth of Jesus.
In essence you're saying it is not fair for God to re-cycle (if you would) prophetic utterances. Evidence in Scripture reveals to me that God would do dual fulfillment.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 230 by jar, posted 10-02-2012 7:18 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 238 by jar, posted 10-03-2012 9:34 AM jaywill has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 237 of 304 (674812)
10-03-2012 9:33 AM
Reply to: Message 235 by jaywill
10-03-2012 9:21 AM


Re: Contradictions in the Bible
Matthew can claim some fulfillment but unless the original source confirms it, Matthew is simply wrong.
In this case (those prophecies in Isaiah) the author of Matthew is simply wrong.
It really is that simple.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 235 by jaywill, posted 10-03-2012 9:21 AM jaywill has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 238 of 304 (674813)
10-03-2012 9:34 AM
Reply to: Message 236 by jaywill
10-03-2012 9:29 AM


Re: Contradictions in the Bible
The author of Matthew can't predict the birth of Jesus.
Sorry but it really is that simple.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 236 by jaywill, posted 10-03-2012 9:29 AM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 246 by jaywill, posted 10-03-2012 11:33 AM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 239 of 304 (674815)
10-03-2012 9:39 AM
Reply to: Message 234 by jaywill
10-03-2012 9:12 AM


Re: Contradictions in the Bible
The author of Matthew is marketing a revisionist form of Judaism. The author is writing after the fact. The author is not making prophecy. The author is simply wrong.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 234 by jaywill, posted 10-03-2012 9:12 AM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 241 by jaywill, posted 10-03-2012 10:35 AM jar has replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 240 of 304 (674816)
10-03-2012 9:49 AM


Granny Mag,
no-one is going to take you seriously.
We expect that some people will not take the word of God seriously.
But many of us take seriously Matthew's reference to Isaiah 7:14. And we take seriously that God demonstrated previous to this incidents that He could dual fulfill His predicted promises.
Barnhouse regarded prophecy as a pyramid coming up out of the ocean. It is a small pyramid at first. Then it is much larger but retains the basic same shape. Then it is much much larger but it is still a pyramid in shape.
One day it emmerges more and is gigantic - huge. Yet it is still in the same shape, a pyramid.
God's promises in the Bible can be like this. You have promises concerning David. Yet David is unworthy of the greatest honor. Then you have the Greater David - Jesus Christ. And you have Jesus Christ coming the first time and coming the second time.
The pyramid of God's promises is emmerging from beneath the waters.
We have to take seriously that God must have had someone better than Solomon to be the messianic son of David. The promises concerning David's son cannot have had ultimate fulfillment in Solomon the idol worsipper with 600 wives and 300 concubines who led Israel into idolatry.
You see God will not allow His hands to be tied when someone promises something turns out to rebel against His purpose.
So some dual fulfillment enables God to, kind of, change His mind without changing His will.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

  
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