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Author Topic:   Who & what are the demons ?
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 226 of 349 (674346)
09-27-2012 10:29 PM
Reply to: Message 225 by Theodoric
09-27-2012 5:29 PM


Re: Demons, Influence and Allowance
Theodoric writes:
"Woo" is not an explanation. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.
Perhaps, but not everything without evidence and/or proof should be disregarded as a possibility. Of course, now that I said that someone will bring up fairies,bigfoot, and loch ness and claim the same status.

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 Message 225 by Theodoric, posted 09-27-2012 5:29 PM Theodoric has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 227 by Straggler, posted 09-28-2012 6:46 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 227 of 349 (674365)
09-28-2012 6:46 AM
Reply to: Message 226 by Phat
09-27-2012 10:29 PM


Re: Demons, Influence and Allowance
No one is disregarding possibilities. No one is saying "Demons cannot and do not exist because they are not possible". That is a strawman.
The question is whether they are possibilities that are actually any more deserving of consideration than any of the other unevidenced but unfalsifiable things we can dream up.
And the only reason for giving them more consideration than fairies (or whatever) seems to be because people believe they exist. But human belief is a demonstrably unreliable basis for drawing conclusion about reality.

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 Message 226 by Phat, posted 09-27-2012 10:29 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 228 of 349 (674366)
09-28-2012 6:51 AM
Reply to: Message 222 by Phat
09-27-2012 4:13 PM


Re: Demons, Influence and Allowance
Phat writes:
Nobody may choose to allow a demon to enter/influence them, but they do love to watch porn, associate with nebulous characters, or knowingly mock God.
So lets say I'm sitting here watching porn whilst knowingly mocking god and let's also assume I have low demonic resistance.
Can a demon now, in your view, start influencing my behaviour to make me do things I don't want to do?
What is it you think I am opening myself up to in terms of demonic inflluence here?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 222 by Phat, posted 09-27-2012 4:13 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 230 by Phat, posted 10-04-2012 4:42 PM Straggler has replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


(1)
Message 229 of 349 (674385)
09-28-2012 11:11 AM
Reply to: Message 222 by Phat
09-27-2012 4:13 PM


Re: Demons, Influence and Allowance
Nobody may choose to allow a demon to enter/influence them, but they do love to watch porn, associate with nebulous characters, or knowingly mock God.
Just saw this line again.
Are these things you equate as evil? Here is the problem with your whole view on this. You are applying extremely subjective views in order to reach your conclusions.
A lot of people have no issue with porn. Most would not admit it, but a high percentage of people look at porn. Even the extremely "moral" people.
By nebulous I assume you mean something like unseemly. You might want to look up nebulous. I don't think it means what you think. Why is association with some people a negative thing?
Knowingly mock God is quite hilarious. Really? Is your god so weak a little mocking pisses the shit out of him. And you wonder why people don't believe?
Your whole idea of demons is vague and nebulous. It is a classic example of not knowing how to define something but knowing it when you see it. Subjectivity at its finest.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 222 by Phat, posted 09-27-2012 4:13 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 232 by Phat, posted 10-05-2012 10:50 AM Theodoric has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 230 of 349 (674969)
10-04-2012 4:42 PM
Reply to: Message 228 by Straggler
09-28-2012 6:51 AM


Re: Demons, Influence and Allowance
straggler writes:
So lets say I'm sitting here watching porn whilst knowingly mocking god and let's also assume I have low demonic resistance.
Can a demon now, in your view, start influencing my behaviour to make me do things I don't want to do?
All of us do things that we don't want to do. Some of these things are minor things in our minds and hearts. Others are quite important...so that we essentially sin against ourselves when doing them. I agree that for some folks, porn is no big deal. Perhaps another thing is a big deal....stealing from your mother, or lying to your wife. When a person knowingly goes against their own morality, they allow a legal entrance for the demons. When we are enticed, God withdraws His power and lets us flounder in our own power, at which point satan has claim. (thats what the dogma teaches, at any rate)
What is it you think I am opening myself up to in terms of demonic influence here?
You are becoming double minded, and are no longer certain of what it is you really want or believe. Being of two minds is being weak. It is also being susceptible to following a path not initially of your own choosing.
Romans 7:15 writes:
For I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 228 by Straggler, posted 09-28-2012 6:51 AM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 231 by Straggler, posted 10-05-2012 6:21 AM Phat has replied
 Message 236 by Omnivorous, posted 10-06-2012 9:47 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 231 of 349 (675015)
10-05-2012 6:21 AM
Reply to: Message 230 by Phat
10-04-2012 4:42 PM


Re: Demons, Influence and Allowance
Straggler writes:
So lets say I'm sitting here watching porn whilst knowingly mocking god and let's also assume I have low demonic resistance.
Can a demon now, in your view, start influencing my behaviour to make me do things I don't want to do?
Phat writes:
All of us do things that we don't want to do. Some of these things are minor things in our minds and hearts. Others are quite important...so that we essentially sin against ourselves when doing them.
Are you now suggesting that everytime I do something that I don't really think is a good idea that I am doing so under demonic influence?
I am trying to work out here what role you think demons can play in people's behaviour. It remains very unclear.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 230 by Phat, posted 10-04-2012 4:42 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 235 by Phat, posted 10-06-2012 7:34 AM Straggler has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 232 of 349 (675038)
10-05-2012 10:50 AM
Reply to: Message 229 by Theodoric
09-28-2012 11:11 AM


Re: Demons, Influence and Allowance
Theodoric writes:
Your whole idea of demons is vague and nebulous. It is a classic example of not knowing how to define something but knowing it when you see it. Subjectivity at its finest.
How can any definition of the supernatural (God or demons) even be objective?
I cant expect you--an unbeliever--to define it any less vague than I can, except to say that in your conclusion it is all in my head.
Some things by definition have to be vague and nebulous.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 229 by Theodoric, posted 09-28-2012 11:11 AM Theodoric has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 233 by Straggler, posted 10-05-2012 11:45 AM Phat has replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 233 of 349 (675042)
10-05-2012 11:45 AM
Reply to: Message 232 by Phat
10-05-2012 10:50 AM


Re: Demons, Influence and Allowance
Phat writes:
How can any definition of the supernatural (God or demons) even be objective?
Well the same way any definition can be objective.
In fact isn't the entire idea of defining things to ensure that we all mean the same thing when we use certain language......? definitions are by definition objective. Otherwise there is no point to them.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 232 by Phat, posted 10-05-2012 10:50 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 234 by Phat, posted 10-05-2012 4:59 PM Straggler has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 234 of 349 (675096)
10-05-2012 4:59 PM
Reply to: Message 233 by Straggler
10-05-2012 11:45 AM


Re: Demons, Influence and Allowance
Straggler writes:
In fact isn't the entire idea of defining things to ensure that we all mean the same thing when we use certain language......? definitions are by definition objective. Otherwise there is no point to them.
Is it possible for you to accept that a thing could exist even if you or I were unable to define it, or do you hold to the belief that anything unobjectionable is by definition as good as not there?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 233 by Straggler, posted 10-05-2012 11:45 AM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 238 by Straggler, posted 10-07-2012 12:11 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 235 of 349 (675119)
10-06-2012 7:34 AM
Reply to: Message 231 by Straggler
10-05-2012 6:21 AM


Re: Demons, Influence and Allowance
Perhaps I can desribe the thought process another way, without the label of "demons".
The Beast described in Rational Recovery is an example of our inner addictive voice. The way that we talk to ourselves and address ourselves allows for subtle behaviors that are not us--and yet that are us.
Understanding how this inner battle works is a key to its defeat, but our animal nature is very persistent and we need Am understanding of AVRT short for addictive voice recognition training. By now you are probably wondering if I am willing to admit that demons are all creations of our own minds...in which case I won't say . I'll let you draw your own conclusions!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 231 by Straggler, posted 10-05-2012 6:21 AM Straggler has not replied

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 Message 237 by Theodoric, posted 10-06-2012 10:00 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Omnivorous
Member
Posts: 3978
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005
Member Rating: 7.3


(1)
Message 236 of 349 (675122)
10-06-2012 9:47 AM
Reply to: Message 230 by Phat
10-04-2012 4:42 PM


Re: Demons, Influence and Allowance
Phat writes:
You are becoming double minded, and are no longer certain of what it is you really want or believe.
And that is the beginning of wisdom.
Led Zeppelin writes:
I should have listened, baby, to my second mind...
Being of two minds is being weak.
No, being of two minds, being undecided, being able to apprehend two different gestalts of desire and decision-making within yourself, offers you the opportunity to understand better both your mind and the world.
It is also being susceptible to following a path not initially of your own choosing.
Rather, it gives you the power to follow a path chosen after careful reflection upon costs and consequences.
Gurdjieff, Russian mystic/fraud, argued that free will can only be achieved through watchfulness and work, that most folks go through their lives as automatons of desire, appetite and habit.
Watch yourself--what do you do, and why do you do it? Can you create and maintain observations of...you? Can you stay awake/aware enough to make your actions in the world the result of conscious analysis and reflection? Can you resist aimless drifting, pulled this way by that appetite, pushed that way by this trauma?
Think, he said, of a machine upon which, by dint of study and analysis, you have some modicum of influence--shorten this piston stroke a millimeter, slow that cog an rpm. In time, he claimed, you can become a free agent in the only way that makes sense--a mind aware of its original native, naive inclinations, a disciplined mind able to act with fuller knowledge and understanding.
The watchfulness exercise is a common one, an entry-level exercise in many meditative and "spiritual" disciplines; in Buddhism, it is an early practical prescription for trimming one's sails in the storm of desire and illusion. Simple to describe, it is, like avoiding the bog of confirmation bias in science, or a guy thinking only with his big head remarkably difficult to do.
I appreciate Gurdjieff's ideas, not as mystical truths, but as insights into the hardware and software in my own head.
Best would be a great big sack of minds: our first mind of flash decisions, our second mind of careful reflection, and a constellation of third and subsequent minds developed via other languages, cultures, disciplines, methodologies and individuals.
And surely history teaches us that certainty is more demonic than doubt: It is the true believers who create hells on earth, not the doubters.

"If you can keep your head while those around you are losing theirs, you can collect a lot of heads."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 230 by Phat, posted 10-04-2012 4:42 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 237 of 349 (675123)
10-06-2012 10:00 AM
Reply to: Message 235 by Phat
10-06-2012 7:34 AM


Re: Demons, Influence and Allowance
The Beast described in Rational Recovery is an example of our inner addictive voice. The way that we talk to ourselves and address ourselves allows for subtle behaviors that are not us--and yet that are us.
Understanding how this inner battle works is a key to its defeat, but our animal nature is very persistent and we need Am understanding of AVRT short for addictive voice recognition training.
More woo?
Until you show me some studies on it, it is just a load of bunk someone is making money off.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 235 by Phat, posted 10-06-2012 7:34 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 238 of 349 (675173)
10-07-2012 12:11 PM
Reply to: Message 234 by Phat
10-05-2012 4:59 PM


Re: Demons, Influence and Allowance
Phat writes:
Is it possible for you to accept that a thing could exist even if you or I were unable to define it...
Define it? If you mean something we have not yet conceived of then - Of course!! Is that what you mean?
Phat writes:
...or do you hold to the belief that anything unobjectionable is by definition as good as not there?
I don't think you mean "objectionable". That means distasteful....
I think you mean that which it is impossible to provide objective evidence for. If that is what you mean then I would in turn ask you why it cannot be objectively evidenced? What is it about the inherent nature of the thing in question that makes this impossible?
Because I would put it to you that anything empirically detectable can be objectively evidenced.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 234 by Phat, posted 10-05-2012 4:59 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 239 by Phat, posted 10-08-2012 6:24 AM Straggler has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 239 of 349 (675200)
10-08-2012 6:24 AM
Reply to: Message 238 by Straggler
10-07-2012 12:11 PM


Re: Demons, Influence and Allowance
Straggler writes:
anything empirically detectable can be objectively evidenced.
I suppose this gets back to our imagination as source.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 238 by Straggler, posted 10-07-2012 12:11 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 240 by Straggler, posted 10-08-2012 7:58 AM Phat has replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 240 of 349 (675204)
10-08-2012 7:58 AM
Reply to: Message 239 by Phat
10-08-2012 6:24 AM


Re: Demons, Influence and Allowance
Well do you disagree that anything empirically detectable (i.e. detectable by means of our senses) can in principle be objectively evidenced?
Are you proposing some sort of "sixth sense" type means of detection.....?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 239 by Phat, posted 10-08-2012 6:24 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 241 by Phat, posted 10-08-2012 11:49 PM Straggler has replied

  
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