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Author Topic:   Flood Geology: A Thread For Portillo
mindspawn
Member (Idle past 2660 days)
Posts: 1015
Joined: 10-22-2012


Message 91 of 503 (676486)
10-23-2012 9:40 AM
Reply to: Message 90 by Percy
10-23-2012 8:52 AM


Percy, its the coal deposits that make the difference for me. Carboniferous coal deposits speak to me of the pre-flood swampy regions of earth. Permian deposits are more mixed, the fossils less intact. A flood would by necessity cause both types of coal deposits because it would cover over swampy regions of thousands of years of accumulated deposits (peat), and also create new deposits of vegetable matter that would form into coal over time after flood deposits and subsequent deposits compress it.
Looking at the geologic layers, what is known as "Carboniferous" coal and "Permian" coal best conform to these two expected layers of coal.
Additionally there are many attributes of the P-T boundary that would conform to the flood as a possible reason for the extensive extinctions then
(as opposed to the more common view of the flood explaining later layers and extinctions, but Carboniferous/Permian extinctions too.)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by Percy, posted 10-23-2012 8:52 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 103 by Pressie, posted 10-24-2012 12:50 AM mindspawn has replied
 Message 108 by Percy, posted 10-24-2012 9:05 AM mindspawn has replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 92 of 503 (676501)
10-23-2012 12:22 PM
Reply to: Message 89 by mindspawn
10-23-2012 5:02 AM


Discrepancy?
I believe the flood incorporated most of the Permian up until the Permian-Triassic boundary, Triassic and afterwards is post-flood.
The Permian is dated at some 300 to 250 million years ago.
If your belief is to be correct, either our dating systems are off by a factor of about 60,000x, or we have misread the entire sequence of evolution.
How do you explain this discrepancy?

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 89 by mindspawn, posted 10-23-2012 5:02 AM mindspawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 93 by mindspawn, posted 10-23-2012 4:45 PM Coyote has replied

  
mindspawn
Member (Idle past 2660 days)
Posts: 1015
Joined: 10-22-2012


Message 93 of 503 (676543)
10-23-2012 4:45 PM
Reply to: Message 92 by Coyote
10-23-2012 12:22 PM


Re: Discrepancy?
Coyote, I believe the dating systems are out. As pointed out by Jonf to Serg (post 85?) this thread is not the place to discuss radiometric dating, but is focussed on the flood.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by Coyote, posted 10-23-2012 12:22 PM Coyote has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 94 by Coyote, posted 10-23-2012 5:16 PM mindspawn has replied
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Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 94 of 503 (676549)
10-23-2012 5:16 PM
Reply to: Message 93 by mindspawn
10-23-2012 4:45 PM


Re: Discrepancy?
Coyote, I believe the dating systems are out. As pointed out by Jonf to Serg (post 85?) this thread is not the place to discuss radiometric dating, but is focussed on the flood.
OK, if you don't want to discuss scientific dating methods, we can work with dates provided to us by biblical scholars.
The majority of biblical scholars place the global flood in close proximity to 4,350 years ago. I can provide a list if you want.
In either case we are not dealing with the Permian or any other geologic eras. We are dealing with relatively recent history and sediments, not rocks. Accordingly, we should look to archaeologists and sedimentologists, rather than geologists.
Archaeologists (of which I am one) find no evidence for a global flood ca. 4,350 years ago.
We still have a discrepancy for you to explain.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by mindspawn, posted 10-23-2012 4:45 PM mindspawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 95 by mindspawn, posted 10-23-2012 5:50 PM Coyote has replied

  
mindspawn
Member (Idle past 2660 days)
Posts: 1015
Joined: 10-22-2012


Message 95 of 503 (676557)
10-23-2012 5:50 PM
Reply to: Message 94 by Coyote
10-23-2012 5:16 PM


Re: Discrepancy?
Thanks for working with the biblical dates, at least we have a similar frame of reference. I generally conform with Rohl's revised chronology who believes current accepted dates are out by a few hundred years. I believe all the currently observable major civilizations in archaeological history were post-flood. There would be no evidence of global flooding in these civilizations because they were established after the flood.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by Coyote, posted 10-23-2012 5:16 PM Coyote has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 96 by jar, posted 10-23-2012 6:09 PM mindspawn has replied
 Message 97 by Coyote, posted 10-23-2012 6:13 PM mindspawn has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 96 of 503 (676562)
10-23-2012 6:09 PM
Reply to: Message 95 by mindspawn
10-23-2012 5:50 PM


Re: Discrepancy?
What about the Jomon culture and the Egyptians?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by mindspawn, posted 10-23-2012 5:50 PM mindspawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 99 by mindspawn, posted 10-23-2012 6:35 PM jar has replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 97 of 503 (676564)
10-23-2012 6:13 PM
Reply to: Message 95 by mindspawn
10-23-2012 5:50 PM


Re: Discrepancy?
Thanks for working with the biblical dates, at least we have a similar frame of reference. I generally conform with Rohl's revised chronology who believes current accepted dates are out by a few hundred years. I believe all the currently observable major civilizations in archaeological history were post-flood. There would be no evidence of global flooding in these civilizations because they were established after the flood.
Now that we've disposed of the Permian, can you provide me with a date for the global flood?
Remember, this has to be in historic times, as it deals with modern humans and relatively recent technology.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by mindspawn, posted 10-23-2012 5:50 PM mindspawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 98 by mindspawn, posted 10-23-2012 6:26 PM Coyote has replied

  
mindspawn
Member (Idle past 2660 days)
Posts: 1015
Joined: 10-22-2012


Message 98 of 503 (676570)
10-23-2012 6:26 PM
Reply to: Message 97 by Coyote
10-23-2012 6:13 PM


Re: Discrepancy?
I didn't dispose of the Permian. I believe the Permian ended about 4500 years ago , which is when I believe the flood occurred. I havent got exact dates because I am still looking into Rohl's comments about the sojourn in Egypt, and Usshers dates but I can safely say between 4000 and 5000 years ago. ( ~4500 years ago)
I did explain that I am using geologic terminology to explain which geologic layers I am referring to , although disagreeing with the time-frames normally ascribed to those layers.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 97 by Coyote, posted 10-23-2012 6:13 PM Coyote has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 101 by Coyote, posted 10-23-2012 9:10 PM mindspawn has replied
 Message 184 by PaulK, posted 10-25-2012 6:03 PM mindspawn has replied

  
mindspawn
Member (Idle past 2660 days)
Posts: 1015
Joined: 10-22-2012


Message 99 of 503 (676573)
10-23-2012 6:35 PM
Reply to: Message 96 by jar
10-23-2012 6:09 PM


Re: Discrepancy?
Regarding the Egyptians, I believe in Rohl's revised chronology. He shortens time frames by a few hundred years and gives very clear and accurate logic why he does so. This would place the early egyptian civilization less than 5000 years ago.
As for the Jomon culture I also believe they are post-flood, do you know the dates for that culture and how they got those dates?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by jar, posted 10-23-2012 6:09 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 100 by jar, posted 10-23-2012 7:26 PM mindspawn has not replied
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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(1)
Message 100 of 503 (676580)
10-23-2012 7:26 PM
Reply to: Message 99 by mindspawn
10-23-2012 6:35 PM


Re: Discrepancy?
It's not a matter of what anyone believes, it is what the evidence shows. The Jomon culture lasted from 14,000 BCE until around 300 BCE.
Of course the Biblical flood has been absolutely refuted so anyone asserting it really happened is simply wrong, but this thread is about an imaginary process of "Flood Geology".
The question is how could a flood produce the evidence that we see?
How did the supposed flood miss washing Oetzi who would have been a contemporary of Adam downhill?
How did the Jomon culture continue pretty much uninterrupted by the imaginary flood?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by mindspawn, posted 10-23-2012 6:35 PM mindspawn has not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(2)
Message 101 of 503 (676582)
10-23-2012 9:10 PM
Reply to: Message 98 by mindspawn
10-23-2012 6:26 PM


Re: Discrepancy?
I didn't dispose of the Permian. I believe the Permian ended about 4500 years ago , which is when I believe the flood occurred.
Sorry to burst your bubble, but you are off by some 250 million years using the end of the Permian as your global flood date; there is no way you can just ignore that vast span of time and try to shoehorn reality into your belief system. It simply won't fit, and all the believing, wishing, and hoping won't make it fit.
Following the end of the Permian we have the Triassic (divided into 7 ages), the Jurassic (divided into 11 ages), the Cretaceous (12 ages), Paleogene (9 ages), Neogene (8 ages), and finally the Quaternary (4 or 5 ages; this is still underway).
If you assume the end of the Permian at about 4,500 years ago, as you do, and break that time down, that leaves about 90 years per age. Now each of those ages can be characterized by the evolution and development of various species. You need to ask yourself, "How does something develop and evolve through a full evolutionary span in just 90 years?"
As an example, "The base of the Bajocian stage [one of the ages of the Jurassic] is defined as the place in the stratigraphic column where fossils of the ammonite genus Hyperlioceras first appear. A global reference profile (a GSSP) for the base is located at Murtinheira, close to Cabo Mondego in Portugal.[2] The top of the Bajocian (the base of the Bathonian) is at the first appearance of ammonite species Parkinsonia convergens." (Wiki)
In the real world species don't just change like this in 90 years.
Further, according to your time scale this was all going on during recorded history. If we step back about halfway toward the end of the Permian we have the Aptian age. This age would also be characterized by Romans as that is halfway back to 4,500 years ago. One of the characteristics of the Aptian age is pictured below. Surely the Romans would have noticed those guys running around, wouldn't they?
By now, if you were working from scientific data, you would definitely have to change your opinions, but as you are working from belief...
I havent got exact dates because I am still looking into Rohl's comments about the sojourn in Egypt, and Usshers dates but I can safely say between 4000 and 5000 years ago. ( ~4500 years ago)
No problem with the 1,000 year span, I can work with that.
In my career as an archaeologist I have tested perhaps 100 or more sites that span that time period in the western US. In none of them was there evidence for a flood of the magnitude you are describing, or any flood for that matter.
Instead of a geological break (with erosional or depositional characteristics of flood waters) what we have instead is continuity: we have continuity of fauna and flora, depositional patterns, human cultures, and mtDNA. A prime example is a skeleton excavated from On-Your-Knees-Cave in southern Alaska. It was found to date back about 10,000 years and to have a particular (rare) mtDNA pattern. That same mtDNA pattern has been found in living individuals along the Pacific Coast of North and South America. This conclusively shows that there was no discontinuity in mtDNA patterns, with replacement from the Middle East/Near East, during the last 10,000 years.
I have a similar example from my own work, but that has only 5,300 years between a skeletal sample and living individuals. Still, that one sample alone is enough to show there was no global flood between 5,300 years ago and the present.
The conclusion from all of this is that trying to shoehorn 250 million years of time into 4,500 years simply can't be done. Your belief is clearly wrong.
But, as Heinlein noted, "Belief gets in the way of learning," so I doubt you will accept this evidence.
I did explain that I am using geologic terminology to explain which geologic layers I am referring to , although disagreeing with the time-frames normally ascribed to those layers.
We understand what you are doing. You are attempting to make reality fit your belief system. So far it doesn't look very promising though, does it?
========
Now for your viewing pleasure, Minmi paravertebra. He's a little guy, only about a meter long. But surely the Romans or somebody would have noticed!??

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 98 by mindspawn, posted 10-23-2012 6:26 PM mindspawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 110 by mindspawn, posted 10-24-2012 11:10 AM Coyote has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 102 of 503 (676589)
10-24-2012 12:39 AM
Reply to: Message 89 by mindspawn
10-23-2012 5:02 AM


I believe the flood incorporated most of the Permian up until the Permian-Triassic boundary, Triassic and afterwards is post-flood.
Just to be clear about this, before we go on.
Do you claim that
(1) All the strata earlier than the PT boundary were laid down by the flood?
(2) Some of the strata earlier than the PT boundary were deposited by normal processes, and then some of them laid down by the flood? (If so, where do the normal processes end and the flood begin?)
(3) The flood event corresponds to the PT boundary?
(4) Other? (Please state which.)
Thanks.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 89 by mindspawn, posted 10-23-2012 5:02 AM mindspawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 104 by mindspawn, posted 10-24-2012 8:27 AM Dr Adequate has replied

  
Pressie
Member
Posts: 2103
From: Pretoria, SA
Joined: 06-18-2010


(1)
Message 103 of 503 (676590)
10-24-2012 12:50 AM
Reply to: Message 91 by mindspawn
10-23-2012 9:40 AM


mindspawn, this is not what is found in my country.
You forgot to mention Gondwana coal. Wasn't the global flood supposed to cover the whole earth?
quote:
Percy, its the coal deposits that make the difference for me. Carboniferous coal deposits speak to me of the pre-flood swampy regions of earth.
  —mindspawn
The Carboniferous coal seams in my country are very thin and very intermittent. They are found in glacial deposits of the Dwyka Group. Deposited around the Carboniferous/Permian boundary.
quote:
Permian deposits are more mixed, the fossils less intact.
  —mindspawn
In my country we do have lots of coal seams in Permian deposits. In the Main Karoo basin they are normally found as 8 seams; with different strata seperating those seams vertically. The two seams with the best quality coal which are normally mined, are the number 2 and number 4 seams, seperated, in places, by hundreds of meters of sandstones, shales and mudstones. Normally they are abot 60 metres apart, vertically.
quote:
A flood would by necessity cause both types of coal deposits because it would cover over swampy regions of thousands of years of accumulated deposits (peat),
  —mindspawn
Well, it seems like this didn't happen in my country. The flood must have missed it.
quote:
...and also create new deposits of vegetable matter that would form into coal over time after flood deposits and subsequent deposits compress it.
  —mindspawn
Please explain how one flood would deposit a coal seam, then deposit hundreds of meters of sandstone, shale and mudstones, then deposit another coal seam on top of all that. Then deposit sandstone, shale and mudstone strata, then another coal seam on top of that. And then does it again.
quote:
Looking at the geologic layers, what is known as "Carboniferous" coal and "Permian" coal best conform to these two expected layers of coal.
  —mindspawn
Well, it seems as if we have more than 2 "layers" of coal in my country. We even have Triassic coal seams, too!
The "global flood" must have missed it. It wasn't global, I guess.
Edited by Pressie, : Spelling and changed first paragraph
Edited by Pressie, : Added sentence

This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by mindspawn, posted 10-23-2012 9:40 AM mindspawn has replied

Replies to this message:
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mindspawn
Member (Idle past 2660 days)
Posts: 1015
Joined: 10-22-2012


Message 104 of 503 (676599)
10-24-2012 8:27 AM
Reply to: Message 102 by Dr Adequate
10-24-2012 12:39 AM


To Dr Adequate, some of the Permian strata were laid down by the flood, but mainly the PT boundary corresponds to the flood.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 102 by Dr Adequate, posted 10-24-2012 12:39 AM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 109 by herebedragons, posted 10-24-2012 9:16 AM mindspawn has replied
 Message 126 by Dr Adequate, posted 10-24-2012 3:10 PM mindspawn has replied

  
mindspawn
Member (Idle past 2660 days)
Posts: 1015
Joined: 10-22-2012


Message 105 of 503 (676600)
10-24-2012 8:41 AM
Reply to: Message 103 by Pressie
10-24-2012 12:50 AM


To Pressie: I'm also a South African.
Regarding your questions, I gave two broad categories of coal. In the one is found Carboniferous fossils, in the other , Permian fossils. I never said the carboniferous swamps covered the whole earth, it would be illogical to say that pre-flood swamps covered the entire earth. I also never claimed that the flood spread dead vegetation evenly over the entire earth, what is more logical is scattered vegetation , and in layers as you point out. Small plants can sink quickly, suspended silt would sink too. It is only logical that the fossilisation or coalification would be in layers as the flood waters settled and the sediment settled and the various categories of dead organic material sank to the bottom. As you say, this is observed in the layering of the Permian deposits.
Neither would I exclude the possibility that coal has formed since the flood, although this is pushing the limits for the amount of time needed to form coal.
Edited by mindspawn, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
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