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Author Topic:   Flood Geology: A Thread For Portillo
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 166 of 503 (676791)
10-25-2012 10:34 AM
Reply to: Message 161 by mindspawn
10-25-2012 9:44 AM


Re: WTF?
guess that's possible that those primitive people could recreate an accurate statue from some bones.
Define "accurate". Name the dinosaur can you recognize from a statue, and give me a way to confirm that the dinosaur is an accurate recreation of a formerly living creature.
For example, I would need considerable convincing before I would consider a T-Rex looking dinosaur with stegosaurus plates on her back to be an accurate rendition of anything. Godzilla isn't real.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 167 of 503 (676795)
10-25-2012 11:15 AM
Reply to: Message 132 by mindspawn
10-24-2012 5:31 PM


CS can you post your evidence for the lack of bottlenecks?
Um, I can't really show you the lack of something, but check this out:
quote:
The cheetah is unusual among fields in exhibiting near genetic uniformity at a variety of loci previously screened to measure population genetic diversity. It has been hypothesized that a demographic crash or population bottleneck in the recent history of the species is causal to the observed monomorphic profiles for nuclear coding loci.
Just a moment...
The cheetah is unusual in having the bottleneck. That means that almost all of the other species do not have it.
Are there more than 14 alleles found in certain large non-aquatic organisms?
Of course. Where's this 14 number coming from? I'm not getting this question.

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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 168 of 503 (676796)
10-25-2012 11:19 AM
Reply to: Message 134 by mindspawn
10-24-2012 5:44 PM


Re: Discrepancy?
We will have to agree to disagree on those dinosaur depictions. When most civilizations depict their concurrent animals, why do only the older civilizations reconstruct dinosaurs in their art?
Ignorance. Older civs wouldn't have known that the bones were of really old and extinct animals.

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JonF
Member (Idle past 168 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


(2)
Message 169 of 503 (676808)
10-25-2012 11:49 AM
Reply to: Message 167 by New Cat's Eye
10-25-2012 11:15 AM


Where's this 14 number coming from?
Seven of each clean animal and bird, and Noah the geneticist made sure that they didn't share any alleles.
Two of each unclean animal and bird, and of course therefore four alleles.

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Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4344
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 5.9


Message 170 of 503 (676832)
10-25-2012 12:41 PM
Reply to: Message 138 by mindspawn
10-24-2012 6:21 PM


Re: Discrepancy?
mindspawn writes:
I don't know of any current civilizations that have artwork based on extinct skeletal remains.
I guess you have never seen Jurassic Park? Books, museums, movies or was that an attempt at sarcasm?
Some very famous artwork based on skeletal remains: Yale Peabody Museum

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python
One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie
If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

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Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 171 of 503 (676841)
10-25-2012 12:57 PM
Reply to: Message 158 by mindspawn
10-25-2012 9:24 AM


Re: WTF?
Moving on, what about carbon dating dinosaur bones, recent dates were found through carbon dating that contradict the standard view on their ages:
Radiocarbon dating is one of my specialties.
There are a lot of ways carbon can sneak into specimens, especially when you are dealing with such tiny quantities.
I wouldn't place too much hope in these few dinosaur dates.
If you want to discuss this further, there are several radiocarbon dating threads where it would be on-topic.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

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mindspawn
Member (Idle past 2660 days)
Posts: 1015
Joined: 10-22-2012


Message 172 of 503 (676848)
10-25-2012 1:04 PM
Reply to: Message 165 by Percy
10-25-2012 10:27 AM


Percy for the record I cannot prove a global flood. The best I can do is state that there were a number of factors that 'could have' contributed to a flood at the P-T boundary. And there is evidence then of a marine transgression and also rapid worldwide sedimentation occurring at various sites across earth at the P-T boundary
extensive late Permian flooding in Africa and Russia:
http://golubeff.narod.ru/...Triassic_Russia_stratigraphy.pdf
Also page 2 of the book African Basins by Richard Selley describes extensive sand and lacustrine mud being deposited during the late Permian.
There is a general worldwide trend of large-scale end-Permian sedimentation followed by the desert conditions and fine grained aeolian sands of the early Triassic.
So I am not saying I have proof of the biblical flood, just evidence of favorable flood conditions, and evidence of widespread flooding at that time.
The reason I joined this thread is not to prove the flood, but just out of curiousity if my theory can be disproved. A lack of contrary evidence strengthens a theory. Can you disprove a global flood at the P-T boundary?
Edited by mindspawn, : Getting a reference

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 Message 187 by Taq, posted 10-25-2012 7:08 PM mindspawn has replied
 Message 188 by roxrkool, posted 10-26-2012 12:33 AM mindspawn has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 173 of 503 (676851)
10-25-2012 1:11 PM
Reply to: Message 172 by mindspawn
10-25-2012 1:04 PM


What is flood geology?
The Biblical Flood can be disproved at any time during the existence of modern humans but that is also irrelevant to this topic and thread. The question is "What is flood geology and how can it explain what is seen?"

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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mindspawn
Member (Idle past 2660 days)
Posts: 1015
Joined: 10-22-2012


Message 174 of 503 (676852)
10-25-2012 1:15 PM
Reply to: Message 169 by JonF
10-25-2012 11:49 AM


Well said Jonf, and so if ark animals are showing more than 14 alleles then either evolution is rapid, or there's no bottleneck as there should be.
If 14 or less alleles then we have a bottleneck.
Edited by mindspawn, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 169 by JonF, posted 10-25-2012 11:49 AM JonF has replied

Replies to this message:
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JonF
Member (Idle past 168 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


(2)
Message 175 of 503 (676867)
10-25-2012 2:27 PM
Reply to: Message 174 by mindspawn
10-25-2012 1:15 PM


Do you really think Noah screened the animals for common alleles?
One study found many alleles, up to 21, for some loci, in Sudan alone. There are more than 2,000 of some alleles in the HLA complex (HLA Alleles Numbers). No recent bottleneck for humans!
Starkenberg et al listed 19 alleles in cows at the DRB3.2 locus (see Table 1). Not much of a recent bottleneck for cows!
The Coat Colors of Mice covers lots of information, for example (picked randomly) the "a" gene has 397 alleles in mice. Definitely no recent bottleneck for mice!
So there definitely has not been a world-wide population bottleneck for all species, which is a requirement of your recent flood scenario. Case closed. Unless, of course, you can show evidence of hypermutation in the last few thousand years.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(1)
Message 176 of 503 (676870)
10-25-2012 2:33 PM
Reply to: Message 140 by mindspawn
10-24-2012 6:27 PM


Re: Bottlenecks
I didn't use cheetahs as an example of an ark bottleneck. I believe they are a more recent bottleneck. I havent got the time to wade through an entire thread to look for your guys proof, if you could post summarized evidence for the lack of bottlenecks observed in modern species, that would be helpful.
Well, that's easily done, 'cos it's like asking me to post summarized evidence for the lack of unicorns.
Here it is: There aren't any frickin' unicorns.
In the same way, the evidence against a universal bottleneck ~4000 years ago can be summarized in a single sentence: there is no evidence for a universal bottleneck ~4000 years ago.
This is why creationists bang on about cheetahs, the only known species for which there was a recent bottleneck.

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Coragyps
Member (Idle past 734 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


(1)
Message 177 of 503 (676872)
10-25-2012 2:41 PM
Reply to: Message 172 by mindspawn
10-25-2012 1:04 PM


And there is evidence then of a marine transgression and also rapid worldwide sedimentation occurring at various sites across earth at the P-T boundary.
And 6500 feet beneath my chair, down in the Permian and therefore beneath the P-T boundary, is the east end of the Horseshoe atoll, a buried reef made of the skeletons of various Permian critters, none of which are alive today. (The sponges were drowned in the Flood, perhaps?) The reef is about 600 feet thick here. How long do reefs take, in antedeluvian days, to grow 600 feet vertically? How many years was it, again, from Adam until Noah's 600th birthday?

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Coragyps
Member (Idle past 734 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


(1)
Message 178 of 503 (676874)
10-25-2012 2:47 PM
Reply to: Message 154 by mindspawn
10-25-2012 8:54 AM


Re: Chalk
Coragys I feel the burden of proof is on you in this particular matter.
I think not. You, mindspawn, made the claim "current rates of accumulation are not appropriate for some forms of coccolithopore which can proliferate chalk production during periods of high co2 prevalence , as per the conditions just after the PT boundary." What were those conditions? Were coccolithophores totally transparent then, and was seawater saturated with calcium and phosphate, with soluble nitrogen for all?
You made the claim. You trot out the evidence.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(1)
Message 179 of 503 (676876)
10-25-2012 2:54 PM
Reply to: Message 161 by mindspawn
10-25-2012 9:44 AM


Re: WTF?
Nice pictures. so you believe those Bolivians found a completely intact dinosaur skeleton and created a statue? Like I said, I guess that's possible that those primitive people could recreate an accurate statue from some bones.
Well, it's not exactly rocket science, is it? You yourself, with no particular training, if shown (for example) the skull of a triceratops, could tell me with considerable accuracy what the head of a triceratops looked like, couldn't you?
Now, in every single case where we know where a dinosaur artist got his inspiration from, it turns out that he got it by looking from bones. You propose that in the cases in which we don't know, we should assume that he got his inspiration by looking at live models.
This is on a par with suggesting that although all the pigs we see don't have wings, we should assume that every pig that we haven't seen does have wings. You propose that a rule which is true every single time we are able to check it must nonetheless be false on those occasions when we can't check it.
Why don't you just hunt down the scientific method and shoot it if you hate it so much?

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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(1)
Message 180 of 503 (676882)
10-25-2012 3:09 PM
Reply to: Message 154 by mindspawn
10-25-2012 8:54 AM


Re: Chalk
Coragys I feel the burden of proof is on you in this particular matter. You are the one claiming that under all post-PT boundary situations, chalk cannot produce fast.
You don't seem to have grasped the concept of the "burden of proof".
The burden of proof always falls on someone who proposes an exception to an observed rule. If in our experience no pigs have wings, then the burden of proof falls on someone who claims that some pigs do have wings. He has to produce a winged pig or shut up.
Now, what you are proposing is that every rule we know about sedimentology by actual observation was nonetheless untrue when we weren't looking.
It's not just chalk. I gave that as a particular example, but it's all the sediment. You need to make out a case that when we weren't looking the deposition of calcareous ooze went three thousand times faster than the maximum observed rate and the deposition of siliceous ooze and the deposition of pelagic clay and the deposition of the micrometorites found in pelagic clay and and and and and.
Otherwise, the scientific method tells us that we must believe that what we observe to be a law is in fact a law.

This message is a reply to:
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