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Author | Topic: faith based science? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Alfred Maddenstein Member (Idle past 3994 days) Posts: 565 Joined: |
Nuke, is that entity you call space-time a physical object that is literally curved like a shapely breast or is it just that you have no idea what you are talking about?
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nwr Member Posts: 6412 From: Geneva, Illinois Joined: Member Rating: 4.5 |
Nuke, is that entity you call space-time a physical object that is literally curved like a shapely breast or is it just that you have no idea what you are talking about?
I suspect that this disagreement is all about the meaning of "physical". I'll offer the meanings that I use:
Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity
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foreveryoung Member (Idle past 610 days) Posts: 921 Joined: |
everything except for space time is either an area over which a force acts or a manifestation of energy. If space time is neither of these then how could it be considered physical?
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Alfred Maddenstein Member (Idle past 3994 days) Posts: 565 Joined: |
I understand that, NWR, but those given by you are all examples of mathematical objects. For instance, all that space-time really is a co-ordinate map of motion of objects. Fields are a bunch of vectors, tensors and suchlike with magnitudes, scalars and so on. All that represents relative directions of motions of physical objects and imaginary forces supposedly acting at a distance for mysterious reasons. Itineraries of moving bodies. The same maps and no hint at any territory.
Attributing to any of those mathematical objects causal powers and physical properties such as an ability to bend or stretch is cheating and abuse of language. It is cheating because no causes are explained at all and the public is left to clap and imitate comprehension. Highly pernicious because the pretence at understanding nips in the bud any attempt to look for the causes unexplained.
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foreveryoung Member (Idle past 610 days) Posts: 921 Joined: |
anti-fundamentalism: the anti traditional american, fake christian branch of weak atheism.
Edited by foreveryoung, : No reason given.
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nwr Member Posts: 6412 From: Geneva, Illinois Joined: Member Rating: 4.5 |
foreveryoung writes:
If it is studied by physics, then it is physical.... then how could it be considered physical? That, at least, is how I am using the term. It is widely understood that "physical" encompasses more than does "material."Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity
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nwr Member Posts: 6412 From: Geneva, Illinois Joined: Member Rating: 4.5 |
Alfred Maddenstein writes:
I am not interested in engaging myself in this particular "argument"...., but those given by you are all examples of mathematical objects. I am just pointing out where the real disagreement lies. As best I can tell, both sides are talking past one another. So the whole "argument" seems pointless.Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity
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nwr Member Posts: 6412 From: Geneva, Illinois Joined: Member Rating: 4.5
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foreveryoung writes:
You could put that into your own forum signature, if you wanted to. But it is rather silly to try to debate signatures.anti-fundamentalism: the anti traditional american, fake christian branch of weak atheism. Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity
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foreveryoung Member (Idle past 610 days) Posts: 921 Joined: |
But is physics studying merely a mathematical abstraction or something they can prove interacts with the world of matter and energy?
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
But is physics studying merely a mathematical abstraction or something they can prove interacts with the world of matter and energy? How would you characterize concepts such as velocity, momentum, or acceleration? Those things are neither matter or energy. They are not objects. Are they real or just mathematical abstractions?Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison. If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass
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foreveryoung Member (Idle past 610 days) Posts: 921 Joined: |
Acceleration and velocity are manifestations of energy. Momentum is a manifestation of mass or vice versa really. What is "space time" a manifestation of ?
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
Acceleration and velocity are manifestations of energy. Manifestation of energy. I don't think so, but then I don't know what a manifestation is. Certainly we can have energy without having acceleration or velocity. Velocity is displacement over time. Acceleration is the derivative of velocity. These are quantities with purely mathematical definitions.
Momentum is a manifestation of mass or vice versa really. Well no. Momentum is a quantity of motion. But what's that? Momentum is a mathematical quantity that turns out to be conserved when there is no outside forces acting on a system. Objects with no mass at all have momentum which I guess means that momentum is not a manifestation of mass. I guess because I don't know what manifestation means in this context. Similarly the topology of space-time determines the trajectory of ordinary everyday objects. In what sense is space-time curvature not affected by or not affecting matter and energy? Are trajectories real or mere mathematics?
What is "space time" a manifestation of ? Perhaps I can answer that after you tell me what a manifestation is.Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison. If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass
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Alfred Maddenstein Member (Idle past 3994 days) Posts: 565 Joined:
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Bill was asked in one of his hubs what would have happened if chemistry was done in the fashion the mathematical physics is.
His answer was: "Scary. They could have reactions between concepts." Like a kilo of acidity meeting a vector of fluidity to result in a mole of bonding. Edited by Alfred Maddenstein, : No reason given.
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foreveryoung Member (Idle past 610 days) Posts: 921 Joined: |
nonukes writes: Manifestation of energy. I don't think so, but then I don't know what a manifestation is. Certainly we can have energy without having acceleration or velocity. Velocity is displacement over time. Acceleration is the derivative of velocity. These are quantities with purely mathematical definitions. But neither one exists without energy. It is energy that produces displacement over time and acceleration.
no nukes writes: Momentum is a quantity of motion. But what's that? Momentum is a mathematical quantity that turns out to be conserved when there is no outside forces acting on a system. Objects with no mass at all have momentum which I guess means that momentum is not a manifestation of mass. I guess because I don't know what manifestation means in this context. Momentum is a meaningless concept without there being mass involved. It is the momentum of a particle that gives it it's mass. If a particle with no mass has a measure of momentum then you have either incorrectly defined momentum or mass or both.
no nukes writes: Perhaps I can answer that after you tell me what a manifestation is. Velocity is one way that energy is applied so as to be able to be detected. Acceleration is another way. Gravitational force is a way that energy and matter are applied together so that they can be detected. To make something manifest is to make it detectable in a physical way. Edited by foreveryoung, : No reason given. Edited by foreveryoung, : No reason given.
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
But neither one exists without energy. It is energy that produces displacement over time and acceleration. Similarly, energy and matter produce space-time curvature. Yet you seem to be arguing that space-time curvature is not a manifestation of energy and matter. You are silent about whether trajectories through space-time are real. I still don't understand why velocity is a manifestation of energy. Energy can cause objects to move. Is that all that is required to be a manifestation? Just some link between the two concepts? And what about momentum and mass. Why don't massless particles with momentum mean that momentum is not a manifestation of mass. We can have mass without momentum and momentum without mass. In short, I don't understand why your "manifestation" test is meaningful.
Momentum is a meaningless concept without there being mass involved. It is the momentum of a particle that gives it it's mass. If a particle with no mass has a measure of momentum then you have either incorrectly defined momentum or mass or both. Absolutely wrong. Photons are massless and yet have energy and momentum. The sum of momentum along with that of the other involved particles is conserved in indisputably physical interactions such as pair production (generation of electron-positron pair from electromagnetic radiation), Compton scattering, and the production of Bremsstrahlung radiation. Edited by NoNukes, : Address momentum idea.Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison. If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass
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