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Author Topic:   Creationism Road Trip
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(4)
Message 271 of 409 (680499)
11-19-2012 5:04 PM
Reply to: Message 263 by Faith
11-19-2012 4:46 PM


Re: The Flood dissolved stuff
Faith writes:
Oh come on Tangle that's REALLY ridiculous. The earth isn't made of marble, and the earth would have been pummeled by rain for 40 days already., Whatever could dissolve would dissolve. If it rains for even three days off and on where I am I get a six inch deep muddy stream outside my door. Don't tell me it's all that different where the rest of you live.
Oh, Good grief.
The mud you see in a flood is not rock dissolved in water, it's small pieces of all sorts of material - mostly top soil, humous and clays. If it comes off mountains it will also have small particles of rock that have been weathered down by erosion over time and picked up and carried in the water. When the water stands, it falls to the bottom as silt or sediment.
It's not dissolved. If it was dissolved it would have to crystalise out to be deposited, like the salt flats.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

This message is a reply to:
 Message 263 by Faith, posted 11-19-2012 4:46 PM Faith has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(2)
Message 272 of 409 (680511)
11-19-2012 5:29 PM
Reply to: Message 240 by Faith
11-19-2012 3:54 PM


Yet Another claim goes "poof"
Christ wrote the Book. To follow it is to follow Him.
Sorry but that is utter nonsense. Christ wrote nothing that we know of.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 240 by Faith, posted 11-19-2012 3:54 PM Faith has not replied

  
Boof
Member (Idle past 246 days)
Posts: 99
From: Australia
Joined: 08-02-2010


Message 273 of 409 (680520)
11-19-2012 6:06 PM
Reply to: Message 262 by Faith
11-19-2012 4:42 PM


Re: The ENTIRE geological column.
Hi Faith, I appreciate your continued input.
Way back in In message 99 you made this statement:
...I'm probably the only one here, or maybe that ever was here, who believes the ENTIRE geological column was formed in the Flood...
and also
...I can't see how any, some, many or most of the strata could have been formed by the Flood and the rest formed by some other means...
We are discussing the ENTIRE geological column, and I asked you to show me this column. Your response was
The Grand Canyon is the best example of it I know of.
I think we need some clarification here:
Do you claim that rocks formed outside of the Grand Canyon are not part of the Geological Column? Was the global flood localised to Arizona?
IF the answer to any of those questions is NO, then please give me more information about this "ENTIRE geological column" so we can progress this discussion.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 262 by Faith, posted 11-19-2012 4:42 PM Faith has not replied

  
Adminnemooseus
Administrator
Posts: 3974
Joined: 09-26-2002


Message 274 of 409 (680539)
11-19-2012 9:44 PM


Time for a pause - Temp. closure coming in 30 minutes
This topic is accumulating a lot of messages (about 100 messages in 18 hours on Nov. 19th so far).
Offhand, the messages seem to have a good quality level. But I think it's time to slow down and give people a chance to actually read all those good messages.
In no less than 30 minutes, I'm going to close the topic for 24 hours or so.
If this happens and you have a great message that you can't post, save it as a text file and post it when the topic reopens.
If this temporary topic closure really bothers you, find an appropriate topic to post your gripe.
Adminnemooseus

Or something like that.

  
Admin
Director
Posts: 12998
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 275 of 409 (680587)
11-20-2012 9:11 AM


Thread Reopened
Because we're headed into the Thanksgiving holiday I thought it would be a good idea to give this thread a shorter hiatus than originally planned. The Thanksgiving period is typically very slow here at EvC, many people leaving on their journeys a day or two early, and discussions that were active before the holiday often never resume. Opening this thread now should help keep discussion active through the holiday providing there is interest.
Given the high quality of discussion so far I'm going to set the summation limit to 400 messages.

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 276 of 409 (680608)
11-20-2012 10:50 AM
Reply to: Message 235 by RAZD
11-19-2012 3:15 PM


Re: Getting to the details. -- biblical references please
RAZD writes:
Faith writes:
This Flood was huge. ...
Which says nothing about the turbulence of the floodwater. Some floods are gentle.
I don't recall making much out of turbulence, no idea why you do. I believe I said something about the first 40 days and nights of ceaseless rain as breaking up the land, dissolving it etc, but I also mentioned that a point came where the water was simply standing for some long period, and I think I even used the word "tranquil."
... It rained torrents for 40 days over the entire earth, ...
It rained, yes, but rain doesn't always cause mudslides.
What on earth would prevent it in an event of this size raining on every inch of land in the world? I think you're just being contrary for no reason whatever.
Do you have a source for your use of the term "torrents"? -- there is a lot of variation in how much water rains down in any given storm.
Why on earth would I need a source for something as intuitively obvious as that? If you like I can go with "ceaseless rain" or "steady rain," I don't see that the result would be much different.
If you cannot provide a biblical reference for the use of "torrents" then you apparently are making up something that is not (strictly speaking) in the bible.
I believe I've said three or four times by now, possibly on this thread, that there is precious little IN the Bible but that what IS in the Bible is the basis for INFERENCES about the Flood, how it most likely would have behaved, and that whatever speculations are used must not contradict the Bible. Your questions are meaningless.
... A heavy rain now for just a few days in a local area can cause terrible mudslides, ...
Can, but does not always -- it depends on the slope, saturation, and type of soil in each specific instance. We can look at the record of mudslides versus the record of rainfall, in which case I would suggest that mudslides are a rare, rather than a common, result of rain.
Oh honestly, RAZD, this Flood could not possibly have NOT caused mudslides. Again you are obviously just making up stuff to be contrary, you have no honest reason for this nonsense.
In addition, mudslides that have been observed do not cover whole plains of land but peter out soon after the slope gets too flat.
The idea here is that the AMOUNT of water PLUS the pounding by the rain for forty straight days and nights would have dissoved the whole land mass, and the idea that it wouldn't have is just perverse.
Again can you provide documentation that any mudslides occurred, or are you including pure supposition\imagination rather than anything specifically included in the bible?
I'm doing exactly what you are doing, imagining what such a Flood would have done, and just what evolutionists do when they imagine what swupposedly happened in a layer of sandstone they laughably refer to as a huge era of time. Yes I'm speculating, imagining what the Flood would have done based on my understanding of what rain and floods do and what the Bible says about the Flood. Pardon me if I think my speculations make a ton more sense than your nonsense here.
... so multiply that effect appropriately. ...
And what is appropriate? 0? How many mudslides are listed in the bible?
We're talking intelligent inferences from the Bible here, not your silly excuses for inferences. To multiply appropriately should give us at least millions of mudslides around the globe and you know what, you know that, but as long as we must depend on speculation you figure you can give the most unlikely speculations and get away with it. Oh how about thousands if you need a more conservative estimate?
... There was also another source of water, the "fountains of the deep" ...
Which could be a gentle welling up of the oceans until the land was covered, a process that would cause little disturbance to any then existing land masses. This also reduces the theoretical amount of rainwater needed to cover the land.
Oh it could have been fairly nonturbulent, but probably not just a gentle welling up, and the rain would have done the work of dissolving the land mass anyway.
Again, I am unaware of any documented damage from such a source in the bible -- can you provide some?
Again, we're talking inference BASED on the very little information given in the Bible and you know it. I'm just better at imagining what a worldwide Flood would do than you are. By a long shot. As are all creationist Flooodists.
... and the water covered the entire land mass of the earth and stood there for months. ...
Curiously, standing water is not known for causing any significant erosion or mudslides.
The rain would have loosened so much sediment the water would be full of the stuff by now. I've many times wondered if the sediments started precipitating out during this phase of the Flood. But we're talking ocean here you know, tides, waves, currents and all that. However quiet the water was it wasn't PERFECTLY quiet by a long shot.
... This can't just be "some erosion" or anything on a scale we can compare to our own time.
Why?
Gee another failure of imagination, RAZD? I know you don't want the Flood to make any kind of sense but you are really bending over backwards to be ridiculous about it.
Why should we assume that there was any significant erosion when there is -- apparently -- no documentation of any erosion occurring? Can you provide a biblical reference to erosion occurring at all?
Again, of course not, we're talking intelligent reasonable inference.
Would you not agree that a literalist interpretation of the bible is limited to what is specifically mentioned in the bible?
What a strange idea, of course not. But I avoid the term "literal." I read the Bible the way it was meant to be read, which is sometimes literal, sometimes poetic, sometimes symbolic, sometimes figurative and so on and so forth.
I came back to answer this post because you've brought up these issues later in the thread as well, but I have to say the reason I didn't answer it at first is that most of it is just silly. And you know it.

He who surrenders the first page of his Bible surrenders all. --John William Burgon, Inspiration and Interpretation, Sermon II.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 235 by RAZD, posted 11-19-2012 3:15 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 278 by Dirk, posted 11-20-2012 11:01 AM Faith has replied
 Message 288 by Theodoric, posted 11-20-2012 11:48 AM Faith has replied
 Message 306 by RAZD, posted 11-20-2012 4:25 PM Faith has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


(1)
Message 277 of 409 (680614)
11-20-2012 11:00 AM
Reply to: Message 241 by New Cat's Eye
11-19-2012 3:57 PM


Jesus "wrote" the Bible
Faith writes:
Christ wrote the Book. To follow it is to follow Him.
No, Jesus is not a book. He was a man. And the books in the Bible were written long after he died.
Jesus is the Logos, the Word of God. The Bible is the Word of God. But I'm not even talking about that, I'm saying that the Bible was inspired by the Holy Spirit who is also called the Spirit of Christ. "Holy men of God were moved by the Spirit" is the New Testament way of describing how scripture was written.
Jesus died, resurrected and ascended, He's living today. He inspired the writing of the New Testament by men through the Holy Spirit just as He did the Old.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

He who surrenders the first page of his Bible surrenders all. --John William Burgon, Inspiration and Interpretation, Sermon II.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 241 by New Cat's Eye, posted 11-19-2012 3:57 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 285 by nwr, posted 11-20-2012 11:39 AM Faith has replied
 Message 295 by New Cat's Eye, posted 11-20-2012 12:02 PM Faith has not replied

  
Dirk
Member (Idle past 4023 days)
Posts: 84
Joined: 08-20-2010


(5)
Message 278 of 409 (680616)
11-20-2012 11:01 AM
Reply to: Message 276 by Faith
11-20-2012 10:50 AM


Reading the bible the way it was meant to be read
I read the Bible the way it was meant to be read, which is sometimes literal, sometimes poetic, sometimes symbolic, sometimes figurative and so on and so forth.
And herein lies the problem of almost every creationist: there are many, many people who read the bible in a very different way than you do (including not taking Genesis literally), yet they, like you, claim to read it in the way it was meant to be read. What evidence do you have that your reading of the bible, including your reading of the flood story, is the correct one? Because to me, "reading the bible the way it was meant to be read" sounds a lot like cherrypicking...
Edited by Dirk, : message subtitle
Edited by Dirk, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 276 by Faith, posted 11-20-2012 10:50 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 282 by Faith, posted 11-20-2012 11:27 AM Dirk has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 279 of 409 (680619)
11-20-2012 11:06 AM
Reply to: Message 264 by JonF
11-19-2012 4:48 PM


Grand Canyon layers identical appearance of AGE
I'm trying to get you to look again, but obviously you don't want to.

He who surrenders the first page of his Bible surrenders all. --John William Burgon, Inspiration and Interpretation, Sermon II.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 264 by JonF, posted 11-19-2012 4:48 PM JonF has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 280 of 409 (680620)
11-20-2012 11:10 AM
Reply to: Message 265 by Taq
11-19-2012 4:50 PM


Dogma? Yours or Mine?
Oh we do adjust all the time to new understandings about how geology works. It always improves our knowledge of what the Flood would have done. But what you don't seem to notice is that establishment geology, same as evolutionist science, that is, the sciences that pertain to the PREHISTORIC PAST, are just as speculative and once established just as dogmatic and unfalsifiable.

He who surrenders the first page of his Bible surrenders all. --John William Burgon, Inspiration and Interpretation, Sermon II.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 265 by Taq, posted 11-19-2012 4:50 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 281 of 409 (680623)
11-20-2012 11:19 AM
Reply to: Message 266 by PaulK
11-19-2012 4:51 PM


Re: The Flood dissolved stuff but ROCKS? Hardly
What's very odd here is that I haven't said one word about dissolving ROCKS, you guys are making that up. Tangle and now you. I've said many times that the Flood would have dissolved WHATEVER COULD BE DISSOLVED. The sediments now in the geological column had to be in some condition that made them dissolvable and separable into their separate types. (Actually, I suspect that if the conditions of the Flood were to reoccur you'd find the walls of the Grand Canyon breaking up again so yeah, some rock would most likely dissolve. Muddy Colorado River, eroded skirts of the walls already show that a LOT of rain would only increase that effect)
I have no idea what rock existed before the Flood but the stratified rocks of the geological column didn't. Granite didn't because that's a product of volcanism and volcanoes didn't occur until the Flood. Etc. etc.

He who surrenders the first page of his Bible surrenders all. --John William Burgon, Inspiration and Interpretation, Sermon II.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 266 by PaulK, posted 11-19-2012 4:51 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 283 by jar, posted 11-20-2012 11:28 AM Faith has not replied
 Message 284 by PaulK, posted 11-20-2012 11:36 AM Faith has replied
 Message 309 by Tangle, posted 11-20-2012 6:17 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 282 of 409 (680624)
11-20-2012 11:27 AM
Reply to: Message 278 by Dirk
11-20-2012 11:01 AM


Re: Reading the Bible the way it was meant to be read
Yes there are a lot of people out there who read the Bible falsely. I read it the way the Protestant Reformers read it, Sola Scriptura and all that, the way the true believers down the centuries read it. Oh we don't perfectly agree on everything but taking Genesis literally is one thing the majority of us DO agree on. My evidence that my reading is the right way of reading it is this historical evidence. Thousands of preachers and Christian teachers I've heard and read have taught me how to read it.

He who surrenders the first page of his Bible surrenders all. --John William Burgon, Inspiration and Interpretation, Sermon II.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 278 by Dirk, posted 11-20-2012 11:01 AM Dirk has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 292 by Dirk, posted 11-20-2012 11:54 AM Faith has not replied
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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 283 of 409 (680625)
11-20-2012 11:28 AM
Reply to: Message 281 by Faith
11-20-2012 11:19 AM


Re: The Flood dissolved stuff but ROCKS? Hardly
I've said many times that the Flood would have dissolved WHATEVER COULD BE DISSOLVED.
And that is when YEC dies.
How do you make stuff that can be dissolved by water?
How was the clay and mud that became the Vishnu Schist made?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 281 by Faith, posted 11-20-2012 11:19 AM Faith has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


(1)
Message 284 of 409 (680628)
11-20-2012 11:36 AM
Reply to: Message 281 by Faith
11-20-2012 11:19 AM


Re: The Flood dissolved stuff but ROCKS? Hardly
quote:
What's very odd here is that I haven't said one word about dissolving ROCKS, you guys are making that up. Tangle and now you. I've said many times that the Flood would have dissolved WHATEVER COULD BE DISSOLVED. The sediments now in the geological column had to be in some condition that made them dissolvable and separable into their separate types.
I wasn't talking about dissolving rocks, I was talking about dissolving the materials the sedimentary rocks are made of (in whatever form). So we're talking about the same thing.
Again we're down to the problem that you have great difficulty believing that your arguments could be bad and you try to blame everyone else for something that is, really, your own fault.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 281 by Faith, posted 11-20-2012 11:19 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 286 by Faith, posted 11-20-2012 11:42 AM PaulK has replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


(4)
Message 285 of 409 (680630)
11-20-2012 11:39 AM
Reply to: Message 277 by Faith
11-20-2012 11:00 AM


Re: Jesus "wrote" the Bible
Faith writes:
But I'm not even talking about that, I'm saying that the Bible was inspired by the Holy Spirit who is also called the Spirit of Christ.
But even if we accept that, the conclusion is still that the Bible was written by humans.
To get to the conclusion that you want, you have to assume something like demon possession. You have to assume that the Holy Spirit completely took over these peoples bodies, turning them into mindless mechanical zombies. You have to assume that the Holy Spirit then manipulated their muscles so that they would make marks (i.e. apparent writing), that those humans could never have understood themselves.
I see that as hopelessly unrealistic.
The best I can make of "inspired by the Holy Spirit" is that the writers were filled with ideas, but that they wrote those ideas in their own words. And what they wrote would, of necessity, be limited by their own knowledge and by their own cultural assumptions. You can conclude only that it was written for the people of that time who accepted the cultural assumptions of that time. You cannot conclude that it was written for modern Americans with their very different knowledge and cultural assumptions. Add to that the fact that humans, including the humans who wrote the Bible, are error prone.
From that starting point, you can arguably conclude that the Bible is inerrant in matters of faith. You cannot conclude that it is inerrant in matters of science, nor in matters of history.

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

This message is a reply to:
 Message 277 by Faith, posted 11-20-2012 11:00 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 287 by Faith, posted 11-20-2012 11:46 AM nwr has replied

  
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