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EvC Forum Side Orders Coffee House Gun Control Again

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Author Topic:   Gun Control Again
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 76 of 5179 (684047)
12-15-2012 8:35 AM
Reply to: Message 65 by Larni
12-15-2012 4:27 AM


Re: guns versus mentality
No, I may not have needed to be armed but that does not imply that I will not need to be armed.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by Larni, posted 12-15-2012 4:27 AM Larni has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 235 by Heathen, posted 12-17-2012 6:50 AM jar has replied

Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 77 of 5179 (684048)
12-15-2012 8:38 AM
Reply to: Message 57 by Faith
12-15-2012 2:28 AM


Re: Second Amendment
Actually I do know what the founders wanted and it was NOT an organized militia for the very reason that such a body can be used against the people which is the exact opposite of the intent of the amendment
You obviously haven't read the Constitution.
quote:
A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.
And seem to be unable to understand the vast majority of the quotes you posted.
You are a right wing freak that no amount of reality will intrude upon your fantasy world.
Your revisionist view of history, unquestioning belief in radical interpretations of a iron age text and hate for other people, and the people like you will destroy this country.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by Faith, posted 12-15-2012 2:28 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
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 Message 104 by Faith, posted 12-15-2012 6:08 PM Theodoric has replied

RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


(2)
Message 78 of 5179 (684052)
12-15-2012 9:15 AM
Reply to: Message 77 by Theodoric
12-15-2012 8:38 AM


the Second Amendment and the National Guard
Hi Theodoric,
... read the Constitution.
quote:
A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.
Those militias are run by the individual states, who are responsible for setting\appointing the various ranks of individuals, with supplies from the feds for arms. Today these militias are the state run National Guard units.
You want to bear arms? Join the National Guard. You want to play with big guns? Join the National Guard.
Enjoy.
Edited by RAZD, : subtitle

we are limited in our ability to understand
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This message is a reply to:
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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


(1)
Message 79 of 5179 (684053)
12-15-2012 9:44 AM
Reply to: Message 45 by Rahvin
12-14-2012 7:03 PM


Re: guns versus mentality
Evidence?
What do you mean, "evidence"? It's trivially true; guns save lives in some circumstances. Make guns less available, and you take a gun out of some number of marginal situations where it would have saved a life. Therefore your gun control has taken one life. If that lost life is matched by two or more lives saved in other circumstances, that's one thing. I think that's justifiable.
But diminishing returns kicks in, as it does in all things. Eventually you're losing one life in exchange for one life. Eventually you're losing two lives for each life saved. That's trivially true. I don't know where those inflection points are; gun control is kind of a multivariate thing, you can't really say "we need X amount of more gun control", but I just don't see how it can be denied.
The data is freely available, and it clearly shows that countries like Japan, the UK, Norway, Sweden, and so on all have significantly fewer deaths per capita due to gun violence than the US.
But that's not the right comparison, now is it? It doesn't follow that if a gun would have saved your life, that you died as a result of what would be categorized "gun violence."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by Rahvin, posted 12-14-2012 7:03 PM Rahvin has not replied

herebedragons
Member (Idle past 858 days)
Posts: 1517
From: Michigan
Joined: 11-22-2009


(2)
Message 80 of 5179 (684054)
12-15-2012 9:57 AM


I have never been a big fan of gun control but I think my position is softening somewhat. I would gladly surrender my guns if I believed that it would stop this kind of senseless violence. I am still not convinced that this would be the case, but I do now recognize that we have a gun problem in the US ... a very serious problem.
The problem is that guns are the symptom of the problem, not the disease. We have become a very violent society. Our television is dominated by violent programming - from the news to cop shows ... to reality shows ... to teen vampire shows etc ... It is hard to find a non-violent show on television. Video games are dominated by violence. Our sports entertainment is violent (maybe not killing but violent non-the-less)
We are a violence-loving society!
I am not saying that because someone plays a violent video game that they will go out and shoot up an elementary school. That takes a particularly sick and demented bastard. And I have no idea what would make someone target an elementary school - easy targets I guess???
But take all the guns away and we will still be a violence-loving society. These sick and demented bastards that want to kill and maim for some unknown screwed up reason will just have to use axes and machetes instead of guns. And it does happen. Look at what happened in Rwanda - thousands of people were hacked to death with machetes. People who want to kill will kill with or without guns.
So until we are willing to give up our lust for violence, these kinds of things will continue to happen.
On a personal note: I had not heard about the shootings until I picked up my 5 year old son at school and brought him to his grandmas house. When I walked in with Tyler, my mom started bawling. I'm like what the??? She told me the news and said it had really upset her to think that it could of been any school and it could have been any child including mine. Truly a heart wrenching thought. It is just incomprehensible to me what these families in Connecticut are going through right now. Incomprehensible ...
HBD

Whoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for. But until the end of the present exile has come and terminated this our imperfection by which "we know in part," I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca
"Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem.

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


(1)
Message 81 of 5179 (684056)
12-15-2012 10:13 AM
Reply to: Message 49 by hooah212002
12-14-2012 7:32 PM


I expect a reasonable amount of safety to be granted my kids, what with living in the fucking United States of America as opposed to some 3rd world country ravaged by war daily. You're right, Connecticut IS supposed to be a safe as shit place.
But look, they're just as safe today as they were yesterday. It's not like this is the first school shooting ever. It's not even like a school shooting is a statistically significant way to die. It's like being hit by a meteor.
I sympathise with, and grieve for, the parents who lost children but it's still the case that the leading cause of death in children is traffic accidents.
You know how it's a problem? When god damn CONNECTICUT gets shot up.
I just don't get that. The fact that it happened in Connecticut indicates, to me, that this is an incredibly rare event that's going to happen in some statistically-uneliminateable small number of cases, regardless of our legal gun control regime.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by hooah212002, posted 12-14-2012 7:32 PM hooah212002 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 84 by NoNukes, posted 12-15-2012 10:53 AM crashfrog has replied
 Message 110 by hooah212002, posted 12-15-2012 6:33 PM crashfrog has replied
 Message 137 by Larni, posted 12-16-2012 7:41 AM crashfrog has replied
 Message 157 by xongsmith, posted 12-16-2012 12:21 PM crashfrog has not replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


(1)
Message 82 of 5179 (684058)
12-15-2012 10:16 AM
Reply to: Message 47 by hooah212002
12-14-2012 7:11 PM


Then maybe the laws aren't strict enough?
Then maybe the tax cuts weren't deep enough? Sure, more tax cuts, that's the ticket.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by hooah212002, posted 12-14-2012 7:11 PM hooah212002 has replied

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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


(5)
Message 83 of 5179 (684059)
12-15-2012 10:27 AM
Reply to: Message 63 by Faith
12-15-2012 3:55 AM


Thank you for that information. I'd argue that if we were better educated about these things, and the people who possess guns were informed and trained and expected to carry them in more ordinary situations than people now think necessary, that it COULD have definitely made the situation better. it could have stopped this murder spree cold. Yes it could have.
Sure but that's not the only concern, is it? Surely we have broader concerns than keeping one school in Connecticut safe from a shooting spree. Isn't our concern broadly with the safety of every American schoolkid?
I just don't see that posting armed amateurs at a million American schools makes things safer in aggregate. Sure, you might stop the astronomically-unlikely possibility of a shooting spree - at the cost of turning a huge number of safe situations into accidental shootings.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by Faith, posted 12-15-2012 3:55 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
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NoNukes
Inactive Member


(3)
Message 84 of 5179 (684065)
12-15-2012 10:53 AM
Reply to: Message 81 by crashfrog
12-15-2012 10:13 AM


I sympathise with, and grieve for, the parents who lost children but it's still the case that the leading cause of death in children is traffic accidents.
And yet we still vaccinate our kids against smallpox.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by crashfrog, posted 12-15-2012 10:13 AM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 92 by crashfrog, posted 12-15-2012 2:28 PM NoNukes has replied

Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(5)
Message 85 of 5179 (684066)
12-15-2012 10:55 AM
Reply to: Message 61 by Faith
12-15-2012 3:34 AM


Here we have this right, which was really regarded as a duty in earlier days, to be armed for our own protection and the protection of our neighbors, and we aren't using it.
You know, I bet even in the golden days of the Founding Fathers primary school teachers didn't take their muskets into class to defend against potential school shootings.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by Faith, posted 12-15-2012 3:34 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
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NoNukes
Inactive Member


(2)
Message 86 of 5179 (684067)
12-15-2012 11:02 AM
Reply to: Message 61 by Faith
12-15-2012 3:34 AM


And these murders do seem to occur in gun controlled areas, such as that theater where a shooting occurred not long ago, in a totally gun free area. Just a couple of armed people in the audience might have stopped that murder spree in its tracks.
Have you forgotten the shooting in Tuscon last year? It would be difficult to find a more gun friendly environment than Tuscon Arizona.
Here we have this right, which was really regarded as a duty in earlier days, to be armed for our own protection and the protection of our neighbors, and we aren't using it.
Are you seriously suggesting that our best solution is guns in k-4 schools?

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by Faith, posted 12-15-2012 3:34 AM Faith has not replied

Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(3)
Message 87 of 5179 (684072)
12-15-2012 12:11 PM


We had/have a problem with knife crime. We toughened the law on carrying knives and on using them so that to anyone using them to just threaten will get 6 months minimum - probably much more.
I have my doubts about whether it deterrs much, but what we didn't do was say that because some thugs carry knives then everyone should. That would be preposterous wouldn't it?

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

Replies to this message:
 Message 88 by ringo, posted 12-15-2012 1:18 PM Tangle has replied
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ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 88 of 5179 (684077)
12-15-2012 1:18 PM
Reply to: Message 87 by Tangle
12-15-2012 12:11 PM


Tangle writes:
... what we didn't do was say that because some thugs carry knives then everyone should. That would be preposterous wouldn't it?
quote:
Never go anywhere without a knife.
-- Leroy Jethro Gibbs
I carry two.
(I've never even met anybody who owns a gun "for protection".)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by Tangle, posted 12-15-2012 12:11 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 89 by Tangle, posted 12-15-2012 1:27 PM ringo has seen this message but not replied

Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 89 of 5179 (684078)
12-15-2012 1:27 PM
Reply to: Message 88 by ringo
12-15-2012 1:18 PM


Best leave it/them at home if you come here:
Possession of Blades/Points
Section 139 of the Criminal Justice Act 1988 prohibits having with you, in a public place of any article which has a blade or is sharply pointed, (including a folding pocket knife if the cutting edge of its blade exceeds 7.62cm/3 inches) (Archbold 24-125).
Section 139A of the 1988 Act extends the geographical scope of both of the above offences to school premises.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by ringo, posted 12-15-2012 1:18 PM ringo has seen this message but not replied

Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 90 of 5179 (684084)
12-15-2012 2:13 PM


Alabama Hospital Shooting
HuffPost - Breaking News, U.S. and World News | HuffPost:
BIRMINGHAM, Ala. -- A man opened fire early Saturday at a hospital in Alabama, wounding a police officer and two employees before being shot and killed by another officer, authorities said.
--Percy

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