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EvC Forum Side Orders Coffee House Gun Control Again

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Author Topic:   Gun Control Again
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 151 of 5179 (684188)
12-16-2012 11:27 AM
Reply to: Message 150 by xongsmith
12-16-2012 11:22 AM


Re: The Reality aint easy
xongsmith writes:
There is no easy way out.
There's an easy place to start though.
Reducing the availability of guns will reduce the number of gun deaths. Simples.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

This message is a reply to:
 Message 150 by xongsmith, posted 12-16-2012 11:22 AM xongsmith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 153 by xongsmith, posted 12-16-2012 11:56 AM Tangle has replied

xongsmith
Member
Posts: 2578
From: massachusetts US
Joined: 01-01-2009
Member Rating: 6.8


Message 152 of 5179 (684189)
12-16-2012 11:42 AM
Reply to: Message 72 by Faith
12-15-2012 5:33 AM


Re: guns versus mentality
Faith shouts:
I don't believe equal gender rights, or a ban on owing a slave were included.
THOSE WERE CHANGED ACCORDING TO THE LAW i'M REFERRING TO, IT WAS DONE IN AN ORDERLY AND LAWFUL FASHION...{snzzpt}
Not the first item. The ERA still has not been ratified.
As the late John Lennon said, "woman is the nigger of the world".

- xongsmith, 5.7d

This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by Faith, posted 12-15-2012 5:33 AM Faith has not replied

xongsmith
Member
Posts: 2578
From: massachusetts US
Joined: 01-01-2009
Member Rating: 6.8


Message 153 of 5179 (684190)
12-16-2012 11:56 AM
Reply to: Message 151 by Tangle
12-16-2012 11:27 AM


Re: The Reality aint easy
Tangle replies:
There's an easy place to start though.
Reducing the availability of guns will reduce the number of gun deaths. Simples.
Simple? LOL
Whatever makes you think that this would be easy? Where in the world have you been? This country has wrestled over this issue ALL MY LIFE that I know of. Consider even Faith's argument that this occurred in one of the strictest gun-control states in the union. The availability of guns to be used for whacko massacres or just the daily grind of crime will still be available enough to occur as needed to fulfill the niche occupied at the negative end of the bell-shaped curve of our population statistics.
Here's a "simples" for you: Just make everybody in the world nice and loving and giving and peaceful by dream-state telepathic thought waves. Tomorrow morning everyone wakes up singing.

- xongsmith, 5.7d

This message is a reply to:
 Message 151 by Tangle, posted 12-16-2012 11:27 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 154 by Tangle, posted 12-16-2012 12:04 PM xongsmith has replied

Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 154 of 5179 (684191)
12-16-2012 12:04 PM
Reply to: Message 153 by xongsmith
12-16-2012 11:56 AM


Re: The Reality aint easy
xongsmith writes:
Simple? LOL
Yes, it's really simple. So simple that most countries have done it - the USA isn't a special case of anything except its own inability to look outside itself.
Or, alternatively, declare it too hard, do absolutely nothing but wring your hands, then repeat this thread in 6 months time.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

This message is a reply to:
 Message 153 by xongsmith, posted 12-16-2012 11:56 AM xongsmith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 160 by xongsmith, posted 12-16-2012 1:33 PM Tangle has replied
 Message 167 by crashfrog, posted 12-16-2012 4:22 PM Tangle has replied

xongsmith
Member
Posts: 2578
From: massachusetts US
Joined: 01-01-2009
Member Rating: 6.8


(2)
Message 155 of 5179 (684192)
12-16-2012 12:05 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by RAZD
12-15-2012 9:15 AM


Re: the Second Amendment and the National Guard
RAZD writes:
You want to bear arms? Join the National Guard. You want to play with big guns? Join the National Guard.
Well said!
...but beware, unlike years gone yore, today this may mean a stint or three in the middle east to defend prosperous multi-national oil companies occupying the indigenous forlorn desert peoples of the region.
I mean, WOW, talk about gun control....
Edited by xongsmith, : last comment

- xongsmith, 5.7d

This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by RAZD, posted 12-15-2012 9:15 AM RAZD has seen this message but not replied

Jon
Inactive Member


Message 156 of 5179 (684193)
12-16-2012 12:13 PM
Reply to: Message 135 by Dr Adequate
12-16-2012 6:02 AM


Re: Second Amendment
Whatever the intentions of the Founders, I don't think the evidence of what they deliberately decided not to do can have evidential value except in the negative
I don't think this holds. Whenever we look at the originally-proposed versions of early parts of the Constitution, they are always clear, specific, and inline with the mindset we'd expect from post-revolutionaries.
The versions that end up in the actual document, however, are always the distilled trash we'd expect as the byproduct of political haggling. If we are looking for intentnot sure why we are, but if we are, the final version is really not the place to look.
Jon
Edited by Jon, : No reason given.

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 135 by Dr Adequate, posted 12-16-2012 6:02 AM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 159 by NoNukes, posted 12-16-2012 12:50 PM Jon has replied
 Message 271 by Dr Adequate, posted 12-17-2012 12:13 PM Jon has not replied

xongsmith
Member
Posts: 2578
From: massachusetts US
Joined: 01-01-2009
Member Rating: 6.8


Message 157 of 5179 (684194)
12-16-2012 12:21 PM
Reply to: Message 81 by crashfrog
12-15-2012 10:13 AM


Crashfrog notes:
It's like being hit by a meteor.
I was wondering when this would show up.
The Geminids this weekend were nice to look at, but never once did I think one of them would actually hit me.
I do admit I was looking for a bolide to miss me.

- xongsmith, 5.7d

This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by crashfrog, posted 12-15-2012 10:13 AM crashfrog has not replied

xongsmith
Member
Posts: 2578
From: massachusetts US
Joined: 01-01-2009
Member Rating: 6.8


Message 158 of 5179 (684196)
12-16-2012 12:40 PM
Reply to: Message 98 by RAZD
12-15-2012 4:03 PM


Re: Homicide Rate Graphs/stats
Hi RAZD,
One of my stupidly favorite scenes in movies is from that horribly stupid movie, "Tremors", starring in a rare lead role, Kevin Bacon of 6-degrees fame. In this movie, Reba McIntyre of country-western (both kinds) fame and the father of a now-forgotten TV series are Survivalists in their bunker on the outskirts of town. The sandworm is swimming through the ground and smashes into their basement wall. They are ready for it. It finally breaks through and, in one of the greatest pan shots in cinema, the camera rotates around to the walls in the basement, revealing a cache of guns to be the talk of the town. Rack after rack of weapons cover the walls, just like your picture here. Our man is emptying gun after gun after gun after gun into the sandworm, Reba adding her equal projectile force with guns she grabs into the creature between handing him yet another gun. THEY WIN! THE WORM DIES!
He barks loudly back at it "Broke into the wrong basement didncha!!"

- xongsmith, 5.7d

This message is a reply to:
 Message 98 by RAZD, posted 12-15-2012 4:03 PM RAZD has seen this message but not replied

NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 159 of 5179 (684197)
12-16-2012 12:50 PM
Reply to: Message 156 by Jon
12-16-2012 12:13 PM


Re: Second Amendment
I don't think this holds. Whenever we look at the originally-proposed versions of early parts of the Constitution, they are always clear, specific, and inline with the mindset we'd expect from post-revolutionaries.
I think Dr. Adequate's comment does hold. The mindset of the original drafter is not really of ultimate importance if the original drafter could not get his peers to go along with his idea, or if it was clear that the states would not ratify the draft as originally penned.
I don't reject your position entirely. Some modifications to the original draft are mere wordsmithing. But quite often, and in particularly in the case of the first and second amendments, it is pretty clear that not all of the intent of the original drafter survived the early parts of the drafting process once the drafter's fellow Congressman got hold of the text.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 156 by Jon, posted 12-16-2012 12:13 PM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 162 by Jon, posted 12-16-2012 2:15 PM NoNukes has replied

xongsmith
Member
Posts: 2578
From: massachusetts US
Joined: 01-01-2009
Member Rating: 6.8


(1)
Message 160 of 5179 (684200)
12-16-2012 1:33 PM
Reply to: Message 154 by Tangle
12-16-2012 12:04 PM


Re: The Reality aint easy
Tangle replies:
Yes, it's really simple. So simple that most countries have done it - the USA isn't a special case of anything except its own inability to look outside itself.
Or, alternatively, declare it too hard, do absolutely nothing but wring your hands, then repeat this thread in 6 months time.
NO IT IS NOT SIMPLE. You are talking about changing the LAW. This is not an imaginary fairy with wand, no wishful thinking. I am talking about the USA reality of trying to convince enough people to limit guns through legislation as carried out by voting for those who would support such a movement. It's the CULTURE that we have to fix. BUT EVEN IN THIS CASE - in Connecticut - with some of the most stringent gun laws in the country, you will notice that this wacko STOLE the guns from his mother (a wacko already for owning such an array of weaponery), killed her, then went to her school and blew out a window in the school to get inside the building, bypassing security at the doors and still got in and killed the children.
What happened here is beyond any reasonable Law you could conger up. The only way this extremely rare event could have been addressed is in the killer's childhood upbringing. The mother and the completely ignored father in the story are most at fault, in my opinion - because "fault" has to be born by those who would know better - not those who's brains are so broken by the time they walk out into the public world there is no other choice for them. Sure - shoot them to kill when they are committing the horror. But follow the dots back.
Officer Krupke, you're really a square, yada yada, etc.
Your desire to enact a more european-style gun law is well-taken, and in most cases I would agree, but it is similar to Bush the W invading Iraq after 9/11. It is completely missing the Newtown, Connecticut problem.

- xongsmith, 5.7d

This message is a reply to:
 Message 154 by Tangle, posted 12-16-2012 12:04 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 161 by Tangle, posted 12-16-2012 1:51 PM xongsmith has not replied

Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(2)
Message 161 of 5179 (684202)
12-16-2012 1:51 PM
Reply to: Message 160 by xongsmith
12-16-2012 1:33 PM


Re: The Reality aint easy
xongsmith writes:
NO IT IS NOT SIMPLE. You are talking about changing the LAW
I have asked before and not been answered; is this LAW made by a God and therefore immutable? Have I missed something?
No, all you need is the political will to do it. Well this is your best chance - you have a president that can't be re-elected, now's his time if he has the political balls.
Imagine that, a US President that brought in Health Care and Gun Control. He'd finally be worthy of that Peace Prize.
(And for you right wing nutters, he gave you the head of Mr Osaman bin Laden.)
Plus he's black.
Slam dunk, start carving the mountain.
Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

This message is a reply to:
 Message 160 by xongsmith, posted 12-16-2012 1:33 PM xongsmith has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 165 by kofh2u, posted 12-16-2012 2:34 PM Tangle has not replied

Jon
Inactive Member


Message 162 of 5179 (684203)
12-16-2012 2:15 PM
Reply to: Message 159 by NoNukes
12-16-2012 12:50 PM


Re: Second Amendment
The mindset of the original drafter is not really of ultimate importance if the original drafter could not get his peers to go along with his idea, or if it was clear that the states would not ratify the draft as originally penned.
But that's not what Dr. A said. Dr. A said:
quote:
Dr. A in Message 135:
... if they considered saying that, and ultimately decided not to say that, it's probably not what they wanted to say.
I don't reject your position entirely. Some modifications to the original draft are mere wordsmithing. But quite often, and in particularly in the case of the first and second amendments, it is pretty clear that not all of the intent of the original drafter survived the early parts of the drafting process once the drafter's fellow Congressman got hold of the text.
I quite frankly don't give a rat's ass what the intentions were of anyone. The document we have is the document we have.
But to say that the document we have accurately represents the intentions of its writers is just bullshit. There are a lot of intentions left out of the final version, and this is only all too obvious given the records of ideas as proposed checked against the record of ideas as adopted (the Constitution we have).
Jon

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 159 by NoNukes, posted 12-16-2012 12:50 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 163 by NoNukes, posted 12-16-2012 2:24 PM Jon has replied

NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 163 of 5179 (684204)
12-16-2012 2:24 PM
Reply to: Message 162 by Jon
12-16-2012 2:15 PM


Re: Second Amendment
But to say that the document we have accurately represents the intentions of its writers is just bullshit. There are a lot of intentions left out of the final version, and this is only all too obvious given the records of ideas as proposed checked against the record of ideas as adopted (the Constitution we have).
Not quite. What you say simply means that the document does not reflect the intention of the original drafter. When we refer to the writers, we mean more than just the original drafter.
A secondary issue is that we have amended the constitution many times since the Bill of Rights was enacted.
Dr. A is perfectly correct to refer to the intention of the writers and not just the original drafter as you do here.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 162 by Jon, posted 12-16-2012 2:15 PM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 183 by Jon, posted 12-16-2012 8:04 PM NoNukes has replied

kofh2u
Member (Idle past 3819 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 164 of 5179 (684205)
12-16-2012 2:26 PM
Reply to: Message 114 by hooah212002
12-15-2012 7:14 PM


I deplore the idea that we are somehow a violent culture, as opposed to a violent nature. Guess what? There was plenty of fucking violence before vidya games and movies! Anyone care to remember the Roman fucking Colosseum? People act like 24 hour news programs or Grand Theft Auto V or even Call of Duty are the only reason people shoot each other up.
edit:
(my harsh language was not meant for you, Panda)
Pagan societies, those that are not Bible believing societies become violent.
This seems related to the fatherlessness that grows once the sexual mores change from the christian prudence of the Dark Ages and blossoms into what we see today.
Violence rises at double the rate of Single Mothers, which the family of the killer was in Conn.
Page not found - National Center for Fathering
Some fathering advocates would say that almost every social ill faced by America's
children is related to fatherlessness. Six are noted here. As supported by the data
below, children from fatherless homes are more likely to be poor, become involved
in drug and alcohol abuse, drop out of school, and suffer from health and emotional
problems. Boys are more likely to become involved in crime, and girls are more likely
to become pregnant as teens.
1. Poverty
- In 1996, young children living with unmarried mothers were five times
as likely to be poor and ten times as likely to be extremely poor.
Source: "One in Four: America's Youngest Poor." National Center for children in Poverty. 1996.
- Almost 75% of American children living in single-parent families will
experience poverty before they turn 11 years old. Only 20 percent of
children in two-parent families will do the same.
Source: National Commission on Children. Just the Facts: A Summary of Recent information
on America's Children and their Families. Washington, DC, 1993.
poverty.gif 
Source: U.S. Bureau of the Census.Statistical Abstract of the United States 1994. Washington, DC: GPO 1994.
2. Drug and Alcohol Abuse
- The U.S. Department of Health and Human Services states, "Fatherless children are at a dramatically greater risk of drug and alcohol abuse."
Source: U.S. Department of Health and Human Services. National Center for Health Statistics. Survey on Child Health. Washington, DC, 1993.
- Children growing up in single-parent households are at a significantly increased risk for drug abuse as teenagers.
Source: Denton, Rhonda E. and Charlene M. Kampfe. "The relationship Between Family Variables and Adolescent Substance Abuse: A literature Review." Adolescence 114 (1994): 475-495.
- Children who live apart from their fathers are 4.3 times more likely to smoke cigarettes as teenagers than children growing up with their fathers in the home.
Source: Stanton, Warren R., Tian P.S. Oci and Phil A. Silva. "Sociodemographic characteristics of Adolescent Smokers." The International Journal of the Addictions 7 (1994): 913-925.
3. Physical and Emotional Health
- Unmarried mothers are less likely to obtain prenatal care and more likely to have a low birthweight baby. Researchers find that these negative effects persist even when they take into account factors, such as parental education, that often distinguish single-parent from two-parent families.
Source: U.S. Department of Health and Human Services. Public Health Service. Center for Disease Control and Prevention. National Center for Health Statistics. Report to Congress on Out-of-Wedlock Childbearing. Hyattsville, MD (Sept. 1995): 12.
- A study on nearly 6,000 children found that children from single parent homes had more physical and mental health problems than children who lived with two married parents. Additionally, boys in single parent homes were found to have more illnesses than girls in single parent homes.
Source: Hong, Gong-Soog and Shelly L. White-Means."Do Working Mothers Have Healthy Children?" Journal of Family and Economic Issues 14 (Summer 1993): 163-186.
- Children in single-parent families are two to three times as likely as children in two-parent families to have emotional and behavioral problems.
Source: Stanton, U.S. Department of Health and Human Services. National Center for Health Statistics."National Health Interview Survey." Hyattsville, MD, 1988.
childrensbehavior.gif 
Source: Zill, Nicholas and Carol Schoenborn. Child Developmental, Learning and Emotional Problems: Health of Our Nation's Children. U.S. Department of Health and Human Services. National Center for Health Statistics. Advance Data 1990. Washington, DC: GPO, 16 Nov. 1990.
- Three out of four teenage suicides occur in households where a parent has been absent.
Source: Elshtain, Jean Bethke."Family Matters: The Plight of America's Children." The Christian Century (July 1993): 14-21.
4. Educational Achievement
- In studies involving over 25,000 children using nationally representative data sets, children who lived with only one parent had lower grade point averages, lower college aspirations, poor attendance records, and higher drop out rates than students who lived with both parents.
Source: McLanahan, Sara and Gary Sandefur. Growing up with a Single Parent: What Hurts, What Helps. Cambridge: Harvard University Press, 1994.
- Fatherless children are twice as likely to drop out of school.
Source: U.S. Department of Health and Human Services. National Center for Health Statistics. Survey on Child Health. Washington, DC; GPO, 1993.
dropoutrates.gif 
Source: McLanahan, Sara and Gary Sandefur. Growing up with a Single Parent: What Hurts, What Helps. Cambridge: Harvard University Press, 1994.
- After taking into account race, socioeconomic status, sex, age, and ability, high school students from single-parent households were 1.7 times more likely to drop out of school than were their corresponding counterparts living with both biological parents.
Source: McNeal, Ralph B. Jr."Extracurricular Activities and High School Dropouts." Sociology of Education 68(1995): 62-81.
- School children from divorced families are absent more, and more anxious, hostile, and withdrawn, and are less popular with their peers than those from intact families.
Source: One-Parent Families and Their Children: The School's Most Significant Minority. The Consortium for the Study of School Needs of Children from One-Parent Families. National Association of elementary School Principals and the Institute for Development of Educational Activities, a division of the Charles f. Kettering Foundation. Arlington, VA 1980.
5. Crime
- Children in single parent families are more likely to be in trouble with the law than their peers who grow up with two parents.
Source: U.S. Department of Health and Human Services. National Center for Health Statistics. National Health Interview Survey. Hyattsville, MD, 1988.
- In a study using a national probability sample of 1,636 young men and women, it was found that older boys and girls from female headed households are more likely to commit criminal acts than their peers who lived with two parents.
Source: Heimer, Karen. "Gender, Interaction, and Delinquency: Testing a Theory of Differential Social Control." Social Psychology Quarterly 59 (1996): 39-61.
juveniles.gif 
Source: Ryan, Gail et al."Trendis in a National Sample of Sexually Abusive Youths." Journal of the American Academy of Child Adolescent Psychiatry 35 (January 1996): 17-25.
- A study in the state of Washington using statewide data found an increased likelihood that children born out-of-wedlock would become a juvenile offender. Compared to their peers born to married parents, children born out-of-wedlock were:
1.7 times more likely to become an offender and 2.1 times more likely to become a chronic offender if male.
1.8 times more likely to become an offender and 2.8 times more likely to become a chronic offender if female.
10 times more likely to become a chronic juvenile offender if male and born to an unmarried teen mother.
Source: Conseur, Amy et al. "Maternal and Perinatal Risk Factors for Later Delinquency." Pediatrics 99 (1997): 785-790.
6. Sexual Activity and Teen Pregnancy
- Adolescent females between the ages of 15 and 19 years reared in homes without fathers are significantly more likely to engage in premarital sex than adolescent females reared in homes with both a mother and a father.
Source: Billy, John O. G., Karin L. Brewster and William R. Grady. "Contextual Effects on the Sexual Behavior of Adolescent Women." Journal of Marriage and Family 56 (1994): 381-404.
- A survey of 720 teenage girls found:
97% of the girls said that having parents they could talk to could help reduce teen pregnancy.
93% said having loving parents reduced the risk.
76% said that their fathers were very or somewhat influential on their decision to have sex.
Source: Clements, Mark. Parade. February 2, 1997.
- Children in single parent families are more likely to get pregnant as teenagers than their peers who grow up with two parents.
Source: U.S. Department of Health and Human Services. National Center for Health Statistics. National Health Interview Survey. Hyattsville, MD 1988.
- A white teenage girl from an advantaged background is five times more likely to become a teen mother if she grows up in a single-mother household than if she grows up in a household with both biological parents.
Source: Whitehead, Barbara Dafoe. "Facing the Challenges of Fragmented Families." The Philanthropy Roundtable 9.1 (1995): 21.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 114 by hooah212002, posted 12-15-2012 7:14 PM hooah212002 has seen this message but not replied

kofh2u
Member (Idle past 3819 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 165 of 5179 (684206)
12-16-2012 2:34 PM
Reply to: Message 161 by Tangle
12-16-2012 1:51 PM


Re: The Reality aint easy
xongsmith writes:
NO IT IS NOT SIMPLE. You are talking about changing the LAW
I have asked before and not been answered; is this LAW made by a God and therefore immutable? Have I missed something?
The laws that need be changed are all those liberal legislations which have contributed to the break down of the Family Unit.
These crimes are committed by people raised infatherless homes where authority and physcial presence of a male who can enforce and lay down laws ninstructs the kids of the next generation in respect for right and wrong.
The Feminism that unleased the Sexual Revolution and commercial use of porn to sell everything from movies to fashions has been supported with Welfare Benefits for bad behaviors and No Fault divorce.
Guns wille replaced with knives or worse if the real problem is not corrected.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 161 by Tangle, posted 12-16-2012 1:51 PM Tangle has not replied

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