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EvC Forum Side Orders Coffee House Gun Control Again

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Author Topic:   Gun Control Again
Capt Stormfield
Member (Idle past 456 days)
Posts: 428
From: Vancouver Island
Joined: 01-17-2009


(1)
Message 196 of 5179 (684250)
12-16-2012 9:45 PM


There is an interesting discussion of the second amendment at the Atheist Experience blog here:
http://freethoughtblogs.com/axp/2012/12/12/answering-justice-scalia/
It starts out on a different topic, but addresses the 2nd starting at post #26. I think the point is fairly made that the intent of the founders was that the militias - however, and by whomever, organized - were comprised of an independently armed citizenry. Their purpose was not to act at the behest of the government, but to be available to overthrow it it if monarchic or despotic tendencies arose.
Capt.

RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 197 of 5179 (684251)
12-16-2012 9:45 PM
Reply to: Message 105 by Faith
12-15-2012 6:16 PM


Re: the Second Amendment and the National Guard
Hi Faith
This is a more complete response than was posted prematurely in Message 143:
Message 104: Yes, the PEOPLE, not an army run by the state, the PEOPLE. "Well regulated" implies you don't arm people with a history of violence or mental disorder, and they need some organization and training, ...
And the constitution clearly states that the regulation, organization and training are functions for the states, not mobs of self-appointed people.
... The National Guard is not what the founders had in mind.
Curiously, it does not matter what the founders "had in mind", as if that could honestly be perceived at this date: what matters is what the constitution and subsequent laws say. We trust the Constitution to state the consensus of what the founders had in mind, including the ability of the constitution to be amended.
The state run National Guards today are the state run militias. They are currently doing the duties laid out in the constitution for the militias.
Did you read any of the quotes in my post, or that article at the end?
I generally ignore the second hand opinions of people who try to revise things to suit their personal agendas, and rely instead on the original documents when forming my opinions ... in this case the constitution.
For instance you can go to an on-line version of the current constitution (with amendments) at:
http://congressionalconstitutioncaucus-garr.../...nstitution
and you can search the text for "militia" ... with these results:
quote:
Article I
Section 8.
The Congress shall have Power ...
To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions;
To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;
Article II
Section 2.
The President shall be Commander in Chief of the Army and Navy of the United States, and of the Militia of the several States, when called into the actual Service of the United States; ing to the discipline prescribed by Congress;
Amendment II
A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.
Amendment V
No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a grand jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of war or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.
This does not mean that people bearing arms are the Militia or that they will be accepted into a properly formed and designated militia according to the constitution.
This does mean that the various self-styled "militias" that have formed in various states, but which are not operated or controlled by those states, are NOT militias as envisaged in the constitution (and thus by the founding fathers), and are more likely to have been regarded in much the same way as John Brown, as an insurrection (should they attempt any armed action), with the duty of the properly formed militias to "suppress Insurrections".
The duties set for the Militia in the constitution are presently being performed by the National Guard, and there is no other body that does this, ergo the National Guard is de facto the Militia as envisaged by the founders.
That is what the constitution tells me, in very simple words.
Then, just for more completion of information, I look up the duties of the National Guard:
National Guard (United States) - Wikipedia
quote:
The National Guard of the United States is a reserve military force composed of National Guard militia members or units of each state and the territories of Guam and the Virgin Islands plus the Commonwealth of Puerto Rico and the District of Columbia (54 organizations) under federally recognized active or inactive armed force service for the United States. National Guard members are a subset of the Militia as defined by 10 U.S.C. 311. ...
The National Guard was established as a federally funded reserve component of the nation's armed forces on 21 January 1903 with the Militia Act of 1903 under Title 10 and Title 32 of the U.S. Code. ...
Constitutional basis
The United States National Guard is authorized by the Constitution of the United States. As originally drafted, the Constitution recognized the existing state Militias, and gave them vital roles to fill: "to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasion." (Article I, Section 8, Clause 15). The Constitution distinguished "Militia(s)", which were state entities, from "Troops", which were unlawful for states to maintain under normal circumstances. (Article I, Section 10, Clause 3).
Though originally state entities, the Constitutional "Militia of the Several States" were not entirely independent, however, because they could be federalized. According to Article I, Section 8; Clause 14, the United States Congress is given the power to pass laws for "calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions." Congress is also empowered to come up with the guidelines "for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress" (clause 16). The President of the United States is the commander-in-chief of the state militias "when called into the actual Service of the United States". (Article II, Section 2).
The traditional state militias were redefined and recreated as the "organized militia" — the National Guard, via the Militia Act of 1903. They were now subject to an increasing amount of federal control, including having arms and accouterments supplied by the central government, federal funding, and numerous closer ties to the Regular Army.
Note the reference to "National Guard militia members" and that the "traditional state militias were redefined and recreated as the "organized militia" — the National Guard, via the Militia Act of 1903".
This too, is easy to understand language: the state militias have become the National Guard, pure and simple, with additional duties to suit modern needs that were not envisaged\conceived\considered by the founding fathers (eg -- terrorism, etc)
Of course it's very hard to tell what matters to people here. Do they care what the Amendment says at all? I ...
Or is the Constitution just an antiquated meaningless document that we should throw out? Which is it. Some even say both, so irrational are people on this topic.
The constitution is a living document, imho, that has the flexibility to adapt to new times and issues, hence the inclusion of the process to amend it.
The constitution also leaves the final voice on interpretation to the Supreme Court, which is why gun control issues get to that level in the process of making new laws.
Enjoy.
Edited by RAZD, : added link

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
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This message is a reply to:
 Message 105 by Faith, posted 12-15-2012 6:16 PM Faith has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 219 by NoNukes, posted 12-16-2012 11:15 PM RAZD has replied
 Message 255 by New Cat's Eye, posted 12-17-2012 11:15 AM RAZD has replied

Jon
Inactive Member


Message 198 of 5179 (684252)
12-16-2012 9:53 PM
Reply to: Message 189 by NoNukes
12-16-2012 8:52 PM


Re: Second Amendment
My argument is that ...
My replies were to Dr. A. Your argument doesn't matter.

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 189 by NoNukes, posted 12-16-2012 8:52 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 201 by NoNukes, posted 12-16-2012 9:56 PM Jon has seen this message but not replied

NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 199 of 5179 (684253)
12-16-2012 9:53 PM
Reply to: Message 195 by Faith
12-16-2012 9:15 PM


Re: the Second Amendment and the National Guard
The PEOPLE were to be the militia and the militia was to be available to defend the country. That's why the phrase about conscientious objectors was included.
Okay so far.
quote:
The check on all government, not simply the federal government, was the armed population, the militia. Government would not be accorded the power to create a select militia since such a body would become the government's instrument.
That's one historian's opinion. An opinion which conflicts with the text of the constitution.
For example:
Article 1, Section 8, Subsection (16)
quote:
To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress
Pretty clear and explicit. The power to organized a Militia, appoint officer's, and train the militia is reserved to the states. The states exert this power through State Guards, State Military Reserves, State Militias or State Defense Forces. There is no provision in the constitution for you to organize your own militia.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 195 by Faith, posted 12-16-2012 9:15 PM Faith has not replied

kofh2u
Member (Idle past 3820 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 200 of 5179 (684254)
12-16-2012 9:54 PM
Reply to: Message 176 by Percy
12-16-2012 5:46 PM


Re: The Reality aint easy
Hi Kofh2u,
The chart you offered above is 20 years out of date and doesn't support your assertions anyway. Youth crime rates began a dramatic decline in the early 1990's. I told you this once before.
The decline was due to the rise in Abortions starting in 1972, after Roe Vs Wade.
This cut the Single Mother trend in half, so we saw a correlation with a drop in violent crime.
Nevertheless, the present 1.5 million illegitimate babies born every year since 1970 is equal to the 1.2 million abortions now fighting crime for America.
As William Bennet said on Radio, at risk of getting fired," to kill the remaining 1.5 million bastards, as they were once called, is NOT an acceptable solution."
But between U and me, the Liberals and Obama are using Planned UNparenthood to do just that..

This message is a reply to:
 Message 176 by Percy, posted 12-16-2012 5:46 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 203 by NoNukes, posted 12-16-2012 10:00 PM kofh2u has not replied
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NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 201 of 5179 (684255)
12-16-2012 9:56 PM
Reply to: Message 198 by Jon
12-16-2012 9:53 PM


Re: Second Amendment
My replies were to Dr. A. Your argument doesn't matter.
Even those replies which refer to me in the first person and Dr. Adequate in the third person? Nope.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 198 by Jon, posted 12-16-2012 9:53 PM Jon has seen this message but not replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


(1)
Message 202 of 5179 (684256)
12-16-2012 10:00 PM
Reply to: Message 180 by NoNukes
12-16-2012 7:28 PM


I apologize for speaking less than literally.
I accept your apology for saying things that you knew weren't true.
Laws that actually try to reduce gun ownership seem to work elsewhere.
This statement is too broad for me to interpret, but this sounds like you're talking about Tangle's claim.
But Tangle's abandoned that claim because it's impossible to support. Other countries have had success only in preserving a low rate of ownership. There aren't any countries at all that have been able to peacefully transition from high ownership to low via the legal process. Now, it's true that American gun ownership is in decline, most likely in response to the general drop in crimes of all kinds. Getting lead out of paint turns out to have been the most successful anti-crime campaign in American history.
It's not yet clear that it's possible to pass a law that reduces gun ownership except by confiscation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 180 by NoNukes, posted 12-16-2012 7:28 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 206 by NoNukes, posted 12-16-2012 10:03 PM crashfrog has replied

NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 203 of 5179 (684257)
12-16-2012 10:00 PM
Reply to: Message 200 by kofh2u
12-16-2012 9:54 PM


Re: The Reality aint easy
As William Bennet said on Radio, at risk of getting fired," to kill the remaining 1.5 million bastards, as they were once called, is NOT an acceptable solution."
But between U and me, the Liberals and Obama are using Planned UNparenthood to do just that
Reminder to self. Think twice before you call somebody a wing-nut again. Once you've rated a right winger a 10, it may be impossible to grade true paranoia.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 200 by kofh2u, posted 12-16-2012 9:54 PM kofh2u has not replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


(1)
Message 204 of 5179 (684258)
12-16-2012 10:02 PM
Reply to: Message 181 by Tangle
12-16-2012 7:32 PM


Re: The Reality aint easy
Many countries have legislated strongly against guns. The USA can too.
The US has, as I've shown. Again, I'm asking you to show me even a single country that has gone from over 80 guns per 100 people to as low as 15 peacefully, by passing gun control laws.
Show me even one, or we'll consider your claim refuted.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 181 by Tangle, posted 12-16-2012 7:32 PM Tangle has not replied

kofh2u
Member (Idle past 3820 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 205 of 5179 (684259)
12-16-2012 10:02 PM
Reply to: Message 189 by NoNukes
12-16-2012 8:52 PM


Re: Second Amendment
Quite frankly, Dr. Adequate's point is nothing more than common sense. Not surprisingly, you reject the point.
LOL
Common sense would dictate that wise citizens better arm themselves against the growing population of Barbarians within, as the inner cities and the population of kids raised by unwed mothers grows and gets even more demanding.
And, as these barbarians within the gates threaten the still healthy citizens within, they siphon off the tax money needed for a military to stand off the growing greedily patriarchs who see the weakness of a decadent America.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 189 by NoNukes, posted 12-16-2012 8:52 PM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 206 of 5179 (684260)
12-16-2012 10:03 PM
Reply to: Message 202 by crashfrog
12-16-2012 10:00 PM


I accept your apology for saying things that you knew weren't true.
You simply cannot resist calling someone a liar, can you?

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 202 by crashfrog, posted 12-16-2012 10:00 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 207 of 5179 (684261)
12-16-2012 10:10 PM
Reply to: Message 188 by Faith
12-16-2012 8:36 PM


Re: the Second Amendment and the National Guard
Sorry Faith, but it seems you are wrong on this.
See Message 197 for a more complete version of the post you replied to (Message 143), which includes information about the National Guard formation from the militias, in compliance\conformance\accordance with the constitution.
including a long well documented article about the English history that the Second Amendment built on, and about the thinking of the Constitutional framers as they wrote the amendment.
Somebodies second hand opinion rather than the actual constitution statements or the statements of laws regarding the National Guard.
I'll believe the actual documents over anyones opinion any day.
We can misread the documents today because we put current meanings into phrasings that they didn't intend. They were building on a history of which we are today largely ignorant.
So can your purported experts.
The "militia" DID comprise "the WHOLE body of the people."
Curiously, I'm rather certain that our founding fathers did not think women, children, elderly, infirm and insane people would be required to be part of the militias.
Quite obviously this is a completely false and made up fabrication:
quote:
Article I
Section 8. The Congress shall have Power ...
To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;
There is no statement anywhere in the constitution that calls for the wholesale calling up of every individual citizen, rather the militia is referred to as a separate group\body of people where various individuals can rather obviously be excluded because of issues of involving organization, training and discipline, just for starters.
It's unfortunate they didn't leave that specific wording in the final draft but it has to be because they assumed it and not because it didn't reflect their thinking. ...
OR, amusingly, it is NOT included because that is NOT what they thought. Wanting it to be there does not make it so.
Enjoy.
Edited by RAZD, : added link

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


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This message is a reply to:
 Message 188 by Faith, posted 12-16-2012 8:36 PM Faith has not replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


(2)
Message 208 of 5179 (684262)
12-16-2012 10:13 PM
Reply to: Message 186 by Theodoric
12-16-2012 8:11 PM


Re: the Second Amendment and the National Guard
Well regulated militia implies a militia set up by law.
No, it means "organized", orderly.
Theodoric, your interpretation makes no sense. The US already has a military for domestic defense, because that power is granted to the Executive in Article 2, Clause 1. It makes no sense for the framers to have gone back and added a redundant Amendment stipulating something that would be obvious - that the nation's military should be armed. Of course it would be, that's inherent in the idea of military.
So clearly the Second Amendment can't be referring to the government's armed forces. The Second Amendment protects the rights of Americans to keep and bear arms - that there's an individual right not to have the government disarm the people - because of the people's interest in assembling to oppose, by force, the enemies of a free state if need be.
If we want to live by the actually meaning of the founders than the right to bear arms means single shot muzzleloaders.
That's not even historically accurate, and that's hardly the interpretation you expect to apply to the rest of the Bill of Rights. Or do you believe that the First Amendment doesn't apply to the TV news simply because there was no such thing as TV in 1776? The intent of the Second Amendment was that the populace shall not be disarmed by the government. It's not a protection of the right to hunt or the right to self-defense; it's a defense of the right to pose a credible resistance to armies.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 186 by Theodoric, posted 12-16-2012 8:11 PM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 214 by RAZD, posted 12-16-2012 10:41 PM crashfrog has replied
 Message 215 by Theodoric, posted 12-16-2012 10:55 PM crashfrog has replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 209 of 5179 (684263)
12-16-2012 10:14 PM
Reply to: Message 206 by NoNukes
12-16-2012 10:03 PM


You simply cannot resist calling someone a liar, can you?
It's true that when people lie right to my face, I've had to become fairly creative about how I call them on it. As always, however, people can avoid the accusation of being dishonest by being honest.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 206 by NoNukes, posted 12-16-2012 10:03 PM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
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Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


(2)
Message 210 of 5179 (684265)
12-16-2012 10:19 PM
Reply to: Message 188 by Faith
12-16-2012 8:36 PM


Re: the Second Amendment and the National Guard
I provided a lot of evidence back in Message 57 about what they meant,
You provided no evidence
Patrick Henry was not part of writing the constitution.
The George Mason quote does nothing to support your assertions. In actuality his writings are counter to your arguments.
Samuel Adams was not part of the writing of the Constitution. His comments here do not support your assertions.
Your Alexander Hamilton Quote is actually a combination of two quotes from different Federalist Papers. Also these quotes do not support your assertion.
As for Mr Vandercroy what does anything he have to say mean anything. What makes him an authority?
You have provided no evidence to support your assertions.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 188 by Faith, posted 12-16-2012 8:36 PM Faith has not replied

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