Summations Only

Can you provide any evidence (e.g quotes from scripture) that Jesus said any such thing?

None of these address the question I asked.As I understand your post, you claimed that had Israel accepted rather than rejected Jesus, that Jesus would have created an earthly kingdom rather than a heavenly one, and that he would have done so by annihilating Israel's enemies. I note that this outcome would seem to avoid having Jesus die on the cross for our sins.In response to my request for a confirming passage of scripture, you give me a passage that describes the destruction of the temple. That's your evidence?My impression is that your theory is complete and utter nonsense. Jesus never claimed to be the military messiah many Jews were expecting. Whatever you are describing sure does not seem to be Biblical.Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

At least some Christians, and I don't know if we can call them fundamentalists, believe that God's relationship with man changed markedly with Jesus first coming. One might explain, at least in part, the different descriptions of God in the Old and New Testaments by the change in God's relationship with man.Secondly, while reading to a shut-in family friend, I encountered the following verses in John chapter 5.

quote:

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46For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me; for he wrote of me.

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47But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

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I'm curious as to why those who maintain that Jesus said that Moses wrote the Torah cited more indirect verses and ignored this fairly direct statement.

I accept that there are alternate explanations for the text at John 5:46-47. But I'm still curious as to why ICANT, for example, cited instead a bit of scripture that makes an even less direct claim of Torah authorship by Moses. The statements in John 5:46-47 are clearly being attributed to Jesus in the text, and what I'm interested in is what a fundamental, inerrant, literalist would make of those verses. Given that context, I am not sure what to make of your question.

A major theme of Jesus interactions with the Pharisees is that Jesus was accusing them of being hypocrits who interpreted the scriptures in ways that inured to the Pharisees benefit.I don't think it is possible to refute Jesus arguments by noting that the Pharisees didn't find or wouldn't admit to finding Jesus in the scriptures. That would be entirely consistent with Jesus take on things.

The quote that I believe we are discussing: I don't believe there is any serious doubt that the Pharisees as a group did believe or profess to believe the scripture, but didn't believe the scripture was about Jesus. I'm at a loss to understand your position on this.As to whether the message does clearly refer to Jesus, that's a completely separate argument, and not one I'm addressing here. I would expect that a Christian would accept that Jesus was correct and that the Pharisees were wrong despite the lack of evidence for the proposition.Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

There are other possibilities. What I am saying is that the Pharisees believed in their own interpretation of the scripture but that their interpretation was wrong. My view is that Jesus words are completely understandable as a criticism of the Pharisees self-serving interpretation.In other words, Jesus is saying that he has performed enough miracles and satisfied enough prophetic scripture that the Pharisees ought to have seen what others apparently did see at the time.

The video guy believes that the story of Noah is a teaching prop that is not literally true. I am not sure why Phat thinks posting a video of someone we never heard of is better that just saying that himself.