Catholicism versus Protestantism down the centuries

No, his reasons were not good. How can you claim that his reasons were good and then claim not to be defending him.Martin Luther wanted Jews persecuted for having Jewish beliefs and for practicing their religion unabashedly. He wanted to have their schools, houses, and synagogues burned for those reasons. I think we know what to call that. Because your rationalizations of Martin Luther's anti-semitism seem akin to worship as does your celebration of Luther as the great reformer while seeming to know little re: the 95 theses. I admit to engaging in a little hyperbole with my question.

He was outraged at their blasphemies, which shocked Luther to the core, as he had been completely ignorant of them before. His reaction was for the honor of God. I consider that a very good reason for being outraged.THAT DOES NOT MEAN I AGREE WITH WHAT HE ADVOCATED AGAINST THEM.Luther was no anti-semite. He approached the Jews in a friendly manner and only changed his attitude when he found out what was written in the Talmud against Christ, which your quote demonstrates. Anti-semitism by contrast is a blind irrational hatred.I don't claim to know a great deal about Luther by the way, I've read a couple of his books and a biography, I probably spent more time reading Calvin's Institutes than anything of Luther's and although I credit them both among others as the founders of the Reformation it's the Reformation itself that I look back to as a historical event probably more than the specific people who led it.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Maybe not to start, but he sure became an antisemite.From Martin Luther and antisemitism

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n 1543 Luther published On the Jews and Their Lies in which he says that the Jews are a "base, whoring people, that is, no people of God, and their boast of lineage, circumcision, and law must be accounted as filth."[13] They are full of the "devil's feces ... which they wallow in like swine."[14] The synagogue was a "defiled bride, yes, an incorrigible whore and an evil slut ..."[15] He argues that their synagogues and schools be set on fire, their prayer books destroyed, rabbis forbidden to preach, homes razed, and property and money confiscated. They should be shown no mercy or kindness,[16] afforded no legal protection,[17] and these "poisonous envenomed worms" should be drafted into forced labor or expelled for all time.[18] He also seems to advocate their murder, writing "[w]e are at fault in not slaying them".[19]

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Did you know Shirer claims Luther was one of the four primary influences on Hitler?But what would a world famous historian and, at the time, Berlin-based journalist know about Hitler?

I know that you consider in such a way. And further, you think Luther's reasons were rational as expressed below. In other words, you believe that Luther's hatred of Jews was rational and thus, not anti-semitic. You even find his reasons for hating Jews honorable, though you decry his recommended action.First of all, your definition is nonsense. I don't care why Luther hated Jews and I'm not impressed by the idea that Luther liked Jews before he really got to know them. If he hated Jews as a group because of their beliefs, he was an anti-semite.Here is a definition that most people would agree with. If you are determined to use some other, non-standard definition, then your opinion that Luther is not an anti-semite is essentially worthless. Luther fits a reasonable and accepted definition of the term.Antisemitism - Wikipedia

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Antisemitism (also spelled anti-semitism or anti-Semitism) is suspicion of, hatred toward, or discrimination against Jews for reasons connected to their Jewish heritage. A person who holds such views is called an "antisemite".

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Secondly, even using your definition, Luther was an anti-semite. Yes Luther had a rationale for hating the Jews, but his rationale was irrational. He hated Jews for beliefs that follow directly from accepting that Jesus was real but not the Messiah. Further, If you hate Jews to the extent that you don't think they should be allowed to own houses, your hate is not rational.Thirdly, your expression of Luther's hatred, (yes, not his actions), as rational and honorable is deplorable and disgusting. In fact, the entire premise of this thread is hate filled garbage of the type I would have hoped was diminishing in the world. Is there some kind of competition with you and kofh2u for most odious poster?Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

The honor of God is never a valid reason for any thinking individual to be outraged. Such behavior is just another example of denigrating God.

Come now.. that isn't true you know. He read a book by a Jewish convert that was highly discredited and full of liesGosh, I think it is ARROGANT and obnoxious to think that another religions beliefs that are older than Christianity can be considered 'blasphemy'. I can see how a religion that split from an older religion could be considered blasphemous by the older religion, but the newer religion getting upset and proclaiming 'blasphemy'..

You mistake religion to mean it got the Bible right and did not stray.Think about it this way.
The Bible is the Truth about what religious people OUGHT be doing in regard to worship.
If they become Popes who fornicate with the parishioners and chase after the girls, drink, and act like pagans, though they head a religion,their teachings and actions would be blasphemous.Jesus basically condemned the traditional Jews and their Judaism when he said:9 I will make those of the synagogue of Satan who say that they are Jews and are not, but are lyingI will make them come and bow down before your feet, and they will learn that I have loved you, (Christians).

Sorry for the delay.
I haven't posted on this thread for days.Yes, the almost completely invisible decimal point would make the Y-ais look ten times larger than what I have specifically stated.I did post right under that chart another one which is more clear about the $600 Billion Dollars.Of course you saw that, but are trying to make this cloudy as possible.Here, read this chart again: Edited by Adminnemooseus, : Fix quote box.

What is the point you are trying to make?

Dude, you're replying to a message almost a month old. There is no invisible decimal point in your graph, here it is again: Your graph is actually of the entire federal budget, but you've changed the label to be "Welfare" instead of "Federal Budget". No, dude, you didn't. Check out your Message 101 where you posted that chart - there's no "right under that chart another one."Your original claim in Message 99 that I was responding to nearly a month ago, and the reason you produced that ridiculous graph, was that welfare now costs more than defense, here's what you said: The reality is that AFDC is only around $150 billion, which is far, far less than the defense budget.Invariably when anyone checks your numbers, they're wrong, though inexplicably the graph you just produced of the entire welfare budget does seem to be correct.--Percy

It was the Talmud. Luther was not stupid and his Jewish friends would have told him if that were the case. You ought to know that the Jews regarded Jesus as a bastard, why are you denying it? "Christianity" is the coming of the Messiah promised throughout the Old Testament and to deny that is blasphemy indeed. He's the Messiah promised TO THE JEWS first, but to mankind as a whole, also shown in the Old Testament.A great many Jews recognized Him as their Messiah and were the core of the early Church, but the Jews who denied it put themselves under God's judgment, which they were already under as their prophets had told them for centuries already. Missing the Messiah was just the capstone on their years of apostasy, for which they'd already spent years in Babylon and then they lost the temple and have suffered many more of God's judgments since then. It's very dangerous to defy God, and very sad. We can only hope many more Jews will wake up to the truth because there is still another great judgment to come prophesied in scripture that is going to be pretty horrendous, called "the time of Jacob's trouble" and beyond that, of course, is Eternal Judgment that everybody who denies Christ will face.There is no separate religion, Jewish religion simply degenerated after the temple was lost and they were unable to perform the sacrifices that were the core of the old religion. The temple was destroyed by God because the Messiah had come, who is the cornerstone of the true Temple, He is High Priest, He is the once-for-all-time Sacrifice for sin, which all the Old Testament rites and rituals could only foreshadow. He is the Reality. Christ is the FULFILLMENT of Old Testament religion. There are NOT two religions if you are speaking biblically, there is the one that is fulfilled in Christ who was promised all the way back in Eden up through Abraham, Moses and all the prophets of Israel. Judaism is not Old Testament religion, it's a false religion made up after the destruction of the temple in Jerusalem.I hope you might consider this for the sake of your immortal soul.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Which Talmud? Which passage? Have you ever studied the Talmud or is it, like the Bible, another thing you have never read? Except Jesus does not meet the description of a Messiah in the Old Testament and not one Old Testament passage claimed to point to Jesus has stood up to examination when looked at in context.

Good grief, I understand HISTORICALLY that it was the Talmud, why do I need to have read it if Luther says HE read it? Why should I believe you over Luther? Believe me, that would be unlikely.According to the NEW Testament Jesus met every single prophecy of the Old but you are spiritually blind so you don't see it. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Maybe you should believe me because I have actually studied the Talmud and read them and understand that just as with the Bible there is no such thing as "The Talmud".Yes, people claim that Jesus met every single prophecy of the Old Testament but so far that does not hold up to examination. If you think an Old Testament prophecy actually refers to Jesus then perhaps you can post the chapter and verse in Are any of these prophecies fulfilled by Jesus? and we can examine it if it hasn't already been refuted.

No, it wasn't. Luther's main works on the Jews were his 65,000-word treatise Von den Juden und Ihren Lgen (On the Jews and Their Lies) and Vom Schem Hamphoras und vom Geschlecht Christi (Of the Unknowable Name and the Generations of Christ) reprinted five times within his lifetime both written in 1543, three years before his death.[10] It is believed that Luther was influenced by Anton Margaritha's book Der gantze Jdisch Glaub (The Whole Jewish Belief).[11] Margaritha, a convert to Christianity who had become a Lutheran, published his antisemitic book in 1530 which was read by Luther in 1539. Margaritha's book was decisively discredited by Josel of Rosheim in a public debate in 1530 before Charles V and his court,[12] resulting in Margaritha's expulsion from the Empire.Do you always make claims that are so easily disproven?? Is that a habit of yours?