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Author Topic:   Flood Geology: A Thread For Portillo
mindspawn
Member (Idle past 2688 days)
Posts: 1015
Joined: 10-22-2012


Message 391 of 503 (680558)
11-20-2012 2:59 AM
Reply to: Message 378 by RAZD
11-19-2012 6:31 PM


Re: dating accuracy issues
But is this kind of error (which I take on faith at this point btw) frequent or rare? How much information is sufficient to make an educated estimate?
My guess is frequent. But I really don't know. I get the impression that a lot of conclusions about the past are based on flimsy evidence , but that's just an impression I am getting.
No, you first asserted that you had issues with dating methodology. This was the second time I suggested you should look at that thread and see what you can explain. Your previous response was to ask a question rather than to go to that thread.
Fair enough, I guess I am getting more ready to tackle that thread as this one is drawing to a close (getting a bit repetitive here at the moment)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 378 by RAZD, posted 11-19-2012 6:31 PM RAZD has replied

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mindspawn
Member (Idle past 2688 days)
Posts: 1015
Joined: 10-22-2012


Message 394 of 503 (680561)
11-20-2012 3:31 AM
Reply to: Message 379 by Boof
11-19-2012 6:54 PM


Re: Flora/Fauna distribution and the flood.
Looking at some of my local (ie Australian) geology:
In the mid Proterozoic rocks here I can only find fossils of stromatolites. Your claim seems to be that nearly all other genera existed but were somehow not fossilised.
I move up the sequence a little to late Proterozoic, I'm still seeing stromatilites but I also see Ediacara. Nothing else.
Above this is the Cambrian where I start seeing arthropods as well as stromatolites. Ediacaran fossils have also been reported in the Cambrian. However, no fossils of amphibians, reptiles, birds, mammals etc.
By the time we get to Ordovician rocks in eastern Australia we start seeing verterbrates - jawless fishes as well as arthropods, etc, etc. No marine mammals, no marine reptiles, no marine amphibians and no marine birds for some reason.
I could go on, but you know the pattern. In every succeeding geological epoch we see, not just new species, but often new genera, plus nearly always examples of the pre existing genera. Isn't it a much more elegant solution to this observation to admit that the over time new species and genera are appearing rather than to try and come up with some convoluted theory that genera start coming out of hiding for no apparent reason? It might be worth having a look at the cognitive dissonance thread.
Its nothing new I'm proposing. Just look at the sudden appearance of the ichthyosaur in the Triassic, this very mammal-like reptile has live young, and is warm blooded. How did it appear suddenly with no known transitional fossils?
The sudden appearance of the wide variety of angiosperms is really hard to explain in evolutionary timeframes. Quite a few evolutionists have claimed they must have already been in existence before the PT boundary, but in rare enclaves, I'm not the first to theorize this concept. Martin, AC Weber etc etc are proponents of this idea from an evolutionary perspective.
PERMIAN MONSOON EVOLUTION OF ANGIOSPERMS to FURNISH DECIDUOUS GLAZE ICE TREES
Edited by mindspawn, : No reason given.

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mindspawn
Member (Idle past 2688 days)
Posts: 1015
Joined: 10-22-2012


Message 396 of 503 (680565)
11-20-2012 5:20 AM
Reply to: Message 392 by Dr Adequate
11-20-2012 3:03 AM


Re: Bones and the flood
Ichthyopterygia ("fish flippers") was a designation introduced by Sir Richard Owen in 1840 to designate the Jurassic ichthyosaurs that were known at the time, but the term is now used more often for both true Ichthyosauria and their more primitive early and middle Triassic ancestors.[1][2]
Its not a forerunner to the ichthyosaur, ichthyopterygia is an ichthyosaur, sometimes referring to the earlier types. Where did these early Triassic creatures come from? They were warm blooded, had live young, pretty unique for the early Triassic, and just appeared without evidence of forerunners.
Edited by mindspawn, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 392 by Dr Adequate, posted 11-20-2012 3:03 AM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 397 by PaulK, posted 11-20-2012 5:25 AM mindspawn has replied
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mindspawn
Member (Idle past 2688 days)
Posts: 1015
Joined: 10-22-2012


Message 398 of 503 (680567)
11-20-2012 5:31 AM
Reply to: Message 392 by Dr Adequate
11-20-2012 3:03 AM


Re: Bones and the flood
Ichthyosaurs aren't "very mammal like". They're plainly reptiles.
Wikipedia's definition of a reptile:
Traditionally, reptiles are members of the class Reptilia comprising the amniotes that are neither birds nor mammals.[1] (The amniotes are the vertebrates with eggs featuring an amnion, a double membrane that permits the embryo to breathe effectively on land.) Living reptiles can be distinguished from other tetrapods in that they are cold-blooded and bear scutes or scales.
On the contrary these dolphin like Ichthyosaurs are warm blooded and have live young, not conforming to biological classification of reptiles at all. But of course we have to still call them reptiles because mammals did not arrive for millions of years. So even though this creature has suddenly developed the ability for live young, and is warm blooded, and we don't know where it came from, let's still call it a reptile so that we do not disturb the so-called phylogenetic tree. All hail the phylogenetic tree! It supercedes what's staring in our faces.
Edited by mindspawn, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 392 by Dr Adequate, posted 11-20-2012 3:03 AM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 402 by Dr Adequate, posted 11-20-2012 6:04 AM mindspawn has replied
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mindspawn
Member (Idle past 2688 days)
Posts: 1015
Joined: 10-22-2012


Message 399 of 503 (680568)
11-20-2012 5:44 AM
Reply to: Message 397 by PaulK
11-20-2012 5:25 AM


Re: Bones and the flood
Why did you post an unsourced quote that directly contradicted your claim ?
Ichthyopterygia - Wikipedia
Its the wikipedia article, and it clearly says that Ichthyopterygia includes ichthyosaurs. To say that they were forerunners to ichthyosaurs when they included them, is incorrect.
"Ichthyopterygia ("fish flippers") was a designation introduced by Sir Richard Owen in 1840 to designate the Jurassic ichthyosaurs that were known at the time, but the term is now used more often for both true Ichthyosauria and their more primitive early and middle Triassic ancestors.[1][2]"
Edited by mindspawn, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 397 by PaulK, posted 11-20-2012 5:25 AM PaulK has replied

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mindspawn
Member (Idle past 2688 days)
Posts: 1015
Joined: 10-22-2012


Message 405 of 503 (680576)
11-20-2012 7:41 AM
Reply to: Message 403 by Panda
11-20-2012 6:44 AM


Re: Bones and the flood
Well, I am glad we cleared that up.
Yeah the first one looks a lot like Dr A's monkey. clearly a mammal!
(Panda if you reading this - its a joke

This message is a reply to:
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mindspawn
Member (Idle past 2688 days)
Posts: 1015
Joined: 10-22-2012


Message 406 of 503 (680580)
11-20-2012 7:52 AM
Reply to: Message 401 by Dr Adequate
11-20-2012 5:56 AM


Re: Bones and the flood
But how do you deal with the difficulty of this supposed "sudden appearance"? Only it seems to be graver for your ideas than ours. We would expect the land-bound protoichthyosaurs to be confined to one place, since they were not yet fully marine (as turned out to be the case with whales when paleontologists finally found the fossils) and perhaps we haven't found the place yet. But according to you, all the ichthyosaurs, though perfectly capable of roaming the oceans, must instead have been concealed in an undiscovered location or locations until they came out to play in the Triassic --- which they did in order of how adapted they were to marine life, with the most poorly adapted coming out of hiding first. Are we meant to find your idea more plausible? Why?
Because its a logical progression of what would most likely have occurred. The oceans before the PT boundary were cold, the oceans after the PT boundary were warm. Evolution is one way to explain the sudden appearance of new types of marine life after the PT boundary, but the time frames seem too constricted to explain the new forms. A large inland sea in a warm region would explain how this marine life suddenly appeared in the sea and dominated subsequent to the transgression and regression at the PT boundary.
These were essentially warm water creatures, not suited to the mainly cold carboniferous oceans.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 401 by Dr Adequate, posted 11-20-2012 5:56 AM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
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mindspawn
Member (Idle past 2688 days)
Posts: 1015
Joined: 10-22-2012


Message 407 of 503 (680581)
11-20-2012 7:54 AM
Reply to: Message 402 by Dr Adequate
11-20-2012 6:04 AM


Re: Bones and the flood
Except that biologists, when they're classifying ichthyosaurs, biologically classify them as reptiles.
For what reason?
Do you think their classification could have been affected by currently accepted thinking that there were no dolphins in the early Triassic?

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mindspawn
Member (Idle past 2688 days)
Posts: 1015
Joined: 10-22-2012


(2)
Message 422 of 503 (680739)
11-21-2012 3:01 AM
Reply to: Message 409 by Percy
11-20-2012 8:45 AM


Re: dating accuracy issues
Hi Percy. I just want to apologise to you, I did read that original article incorrectly. Yes you are correct, the geologists are re-dating the Acatlan complex, not the Appalachians. When you corrected me on this, I should have investigated properly, instead I looked at the dates of the articles, so I apologise too for not checking your correction properly.
So agreed, its the Acatlan complex, not the Appalachians that the geologists are re-dating by 120 000 000 years.

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 Message 409 by Percy, posted 11-20-2012 8:45 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 430 by Percy, posted 11-21-2012 10:20 AM mindspawn has replied

  
mindspawn
Member (Idle past 2688 days)
Posts: 1015
Joined: 10-22-2012


Message 423 of 503 (680740)
11-21-2012 3:08 AM
Reply to: Message 411 by RAZD
11-20-2012 9:37 AM


Re: turns out there is no correction to age measurements
I did apologise to Percy regarding my mistake. however the point does still stand that geologists do get their dates badly wrong.
I'm curious why they did not already have radioactive dates for that Acatlan Complex? Why didn't geologists date the complex that way, and instead rely on revised plate tectonic info to re-date the complex. Any idea?

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mindspawn
Member (Idle past 2688 days)
Posts: 1015
Joined: 10-22-2012


(1)
Message 424 of 503 (680742)
11-21-2012 3:17 AM
Reply to: Message 413 by RAZD
11-20-2012 9:56 AM


Re: understanding age measurements
So your guess is completely uninformed and based on your biased opinions rather than on any review of empirical objective data. It's a WAG (wild-ass guess).
exactly! that's what the words "I don't know" mean. It means ....I don't know. And thats what a guess means..... a guess.
Curiously, science is based on evaluation of the best information we have available. Sometimes that information is incomplete due to gaps in the evidence available, and when any new information becomes available to fill those gaps -- as we see here in southern Mexico -- then there is either the possibility of confirming previous thought or of changing previous thought -- as we see here on the timing of the movement of tectonic plates in this area.
It is fine to be skeptical, but you then need to investigate, to research the information, to see if your cursory impressions match fact..
So again, perhaps it is time for you to actually investigate this, and you can start by reading Age Correlations and An Old Earth, Version 2 No 1
So you are agreeing that information is incomplete sometimes, and then a mountain range can be dated according to incomplete information, and then re-dated when more complete information becomes available. That is my point as well, and its a pretty obvious point too.

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mindspawn
Member (Idle past 2688 days)
Posts: 1015
Joined: 10-22-2012


Message 426 of 503 (680748)
11-21-2012 4:14 AM
Reply to: Message 415 by JonF
11-20-2012 12:11 PM


So there's no possibility that all those alleles arose in such geographically limited area in 4500 years. No fludde, nope, no how, no way.
I don't see how you get that confident conclusion from the information presented.
Its about exactly as you would expect from bringing in 7 pigs onto the ark. You would start off with close to 14 alleles, maybe 12 alleles in some positions. He may have been instructed to get diverse types, that would make sense for species survival. Some genes would mutate more than other genes, some showing as little as 5 alleles, some as much as 20. Looking at that list I see nothing to contradict the figures put forward, I would have expected some alleles even higher than 20 actually, in those regions particularly susceptible to mutations as discussed earlier so I'm pretty pleased with that table.

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 Message 415 by JonF, posted 11-20-2012 12:11 PM JonF has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 427 by PaulK, posted 11-21-2012 4:18 AM mindspawn has replied
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mindspawn
Member (Idle past 2688 days)
Posts: 1015
Joined: 10-22-2012


Message 448 of 503 (687655)
01-15-2013 6:26 AM


Apology to All
Sorry guys to disappear so suddenly, enjoying the discussion but my life just got so busy. Courting a beautiful lady of note, starting a new business, entertaining clients, and of course celebrating the birth of Jesus. I'm back!

  
mindspawn
Member (Idle past 2688 days)
Posts: 1015
Joined: 10-22-2012


Message 449 of 503 (687656)
01-15-2013 6:31 AM
Reply to: Message 425 by Dr Adequate
11-21-2012 3:23 AM


Re: Bones and the flood
For some reason those ichthyopterygians least adapted to a marine lifestyle managed to spread and flourish before the true ichthyosaurs, which were still hiding in this elusive large sea until the Jurassic. Some of them waited 'til the Cretaceous. Meanwhile, as the later forms turned up, the earlier forms were driven out ... apparently they could all co-exist in a single sea, but the whole of the oceans didn't have enough niches for them. (Maybe you should postulate more large seas that no-one's managed to find yet, in which they were originally segregated.)
If this is what you would call a "logical progression", I wonder what you would find bizarre and counter-intuitive
Did they have separate radiometric data for each of those fossils? Or does the layering always show the so-called earlier ones below the so-called later ones. If so can you show proof of that please.
If you do not have such data, the assumption that there is a "progression" could be just that, an assumption.
Edited by mindspawn, : learning quotes again
Edited by Admin, : Fix quote.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 425 by Dr Adequate, posted 11-21-2012 3:23 AM Dr Adequate has replied

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mindspawn
Member (Idle past 2688 days)
Posts: 1015
Joined: 10-22-2012


Message 450 of 503 (687657)
01-15-2013 7:00 AM
Reply to: Message 428 by JonF
11-21-2012 9:42 AM


Unclean animals
Yup, pigs are unclean. That's why I chose them. Maximum four alleles, in "reality" fewer. Unless, of course, there were extra stowaway pigs scuttling around unnoticed and hiding in mouseholes with the mice.
The Hebrew word for the unclean animals on the ark means "not pure" (tahowr), and is different to the Hebrew word (tame') which means defiled >1000 years later, they are not necessarily the same group of animals. Because the flood wording does not describe the animals in detail like the Leviticus wording >1000 years later, we do not know which ark animals were unclean and which not, and therefore have to for the sake of argument assume 7 pairs of animals, which is actually 14 animals with 2 alleles each, which is actually 28 alleles as a basis for argument.
Edited by mindspawn, : being specific
Edited by Admin, : Fix quote.

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