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Author | Topic: Flood Geology: A Thread For Portillo | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Granny Magda Member Posts: 2462 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 3.8
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It is well known that Triassic oceans were anoxic. Your source only refers to the Early Triassic, not the whole period. Also, I notice that you omitted this bit, the bit that comes right after your quote ends;
quote: Uh-huh. Can't imagine why you missed that out... Meanwhile, back in reality, the Triassic played host to plenty of fish. After all, if there were no fish in the Triassic, there would be no fish today.
That's true whales do survivein the tropics, but they need fish or plankton to eat, and fish and plankton are not found in the anoxic conditions of the Triassic. Utter crap. You need to stop making shit up. Here is a Triassic fish;
There are plenty of Triassic fish fossils, they're not rare. What's more, the Triassic was a veritable heaven for giant marine reptiles, creatures that share much the same requirements as whales - air-breathing, fish eating apex predators - so your claims are in direct contradiction of the evidence. And none of this even begins to explain why we see no whale fossils in, say, the Jurassic.
Whales would therefore be confined to oxygenated waters, most likely found in arctic conditions. But they're not confined to Arctic conditions! There are cetaceans in the Amazon for Chrissakes! They do a damn sight more than "survive", they positively thrive! The limitations that you seek to place upon these creatures exist only in your imagination. I also note that you make no attempt to answer my actual point; If the Triassic was too hot for whales, why do we see whale fossils from the Eocene, which was even hotter? Is it because you just made all this rubbish up as you went along? I think we both know the answer. Mutate and Survive Edited by Granny Magda, : No reason given.
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
And I'm pointing out that this would shake paleontology and physics to their respective cores And I'm suggesting that exactly such a shaking is required if the universe is to be only 6000 years old with a global flood about 4500 years ago.Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison. If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass
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mindspawn Member (Idle past 2686 days) Posts: 1015 Joined: |
But they're not confined to Arctic conditions!
I did not say they were confined to arctic conditions. I said confined to oxygenated regions (most likely arctic).
Utter crap. You need to stop making shit up. Here is a Triassic fish; If you want to misunderstand my posts , go for it. I said fish are not found in the anoxic conditions of the triassic, this is because they are found in the oxygenated regions. I was not saying fish did not exist, that would contradict my whole point about fish actually existing, and whales existing. Fish are not found in anoxic conditions, and anoxic conditions were widespread in the Triassic. They are found in the oxygenated regions. Fish do not survive in anoxic conditions.period. Edited by mindspawn, : No reason given. Edited by mindspawn, : Adding a point Edited by mindspawn, : No reason given.
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Percy Member Posts: 22490 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 5.0 |
NoNukes writes: And I'm suggesting that exactly such a shaking is required if the universe is to be only 6000 years old with a global flood about 4500 years ago. Yes, of course. MindSpawn is suggesting that that article is evidence that the shakeup has already occurred. And I'm suggesting that he may have misinterpreted the article, given that no one but him has noticed this supposed epic failure of radiometric dating and violation of the laws of physics. We're going back and forth on what feels like an obvious point to me. There must be an interpretation of what I'm saying that I haven't grasped yet. Let me know if you figure out where the problem lies. --Percy
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mindspawn Member (Idle past 2686 days) Posts: 1015 Joined: |
I wasn't actually claiming any errors in radiometric dating. I was merely noting that a mountain range previously thought to have been formed with has subsequently been found to have been formed with the Appalachians. Scientists make mistakes, that's part of the learning process of science. I was not expecting anyone to make a big issue out of a simple point, that the mountain range of the Acatlan Complex has been re-dated.
The collision created the mountain range:Evidence collected by Nance and his colleagues from rocks in the Acatln Complex shows that its collision with Laurussia actually occurred about 120 million years later. I don't see what I'm misunderstanding
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NoNukes Inactive Member
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Let me know if you figure out where the problem lies. In many contexts, pointing out to someone that if they are right, all of science is wrong is a useful technique for stimulating introspection. I just don't think that this is one of those contexts. Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison. If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass
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NoNukes Inactive Member
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was merely noting that a mountain range previously thought to have been formed with has subsequently been found to have been formed with the Appalachians. Scientists make mistakes, that's part of the learning process of science. Scientists do make mistakes. I'm still not certain that this particular case would be one of them. But that said, this thread is replete with expressions of distrust for dating from you. If you actually accepted radiometric dating, we wouldn't be talking about a Triassic period that was only a few thousand years ago. If that mistrust isn't your point this one particular time, perhaps it is not so surprising that it was missed.Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison. If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass
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Percy Member Posts: 22490 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 5.0 |
Yeah, maybe you're right. I don't know what it might take to help him understand that the Acatlan complex has not been redated.
I read your next message responding to MindSpawn's claim that he wasn't making a point about the reliability of radiometric dating. Like you I can't see what his point was if it wasn't about that. --Percy
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Dr Adequate Member (Idle past 310 days) Posts: 16113 Joined: |
I said fish are not found in the anoxic conditions of the triassic, this is because they are found in the oxygenated regions. Unlike the whales.
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mindspawn Member (Idle past 2686 days) Posts: 1015 Joined: |
Not to pile on, you have a lot to deal with already...but are you suggesting the Noah went around a collect genetically diverse organisms for the Ark? Or did he simply pick and choose from the hundreds of each species that showed up...obviously selecting those that were genetically "unique" from each other (i.e. different alleles)? How did he manage to do that, you suppose? What about alleles whose effects were hidden from Noah cuz, well...cuz they were "inside" the organism? What about recessive alleles? Pleiotropy? Co-dominance? Incomplete dominance? The list goes on. If two animals can breed well, and yet come from vastly different regions, this increases the chances of a wider set of alleles. To Noah, it would just be getting variety into the breeding stock, its possible he did so, rather than taking 14 animals from one population. I'm not saying he understood genetics.
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1431 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
A bit of anecdotal evidence ...
... Also, I notice that you omitted this bit, the bit that comes right after your quote ends;
quote: Uh-huh. Can't imagine why you missed that out... Here in New England we dig a lot of clams. Steamers are generally (best) found in anoxic conditions, where the mud\sand is black from the lack of oxygen and it smells like sulfurous compounds -- in spite of the fact that the ocean flows over the mud flats at high tide with waters populated with fish and other oxygen consuming organisms. Such black mud flats would become black shale, without the ocean be anoxic. Enjoy.by our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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Granny Magda Member Posts: 2462 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 3.8
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I said confined to oxygenated regions (most likely arctic). If your only point is that whales (and their food species) can only live in (at least partly) oxygenated water, then this is true, but it's also a non-point. This is obvious; it's true today, true of the Triassic and true of any era. If however, you wish to claim that, during the Triassic, oxygenated water was only found in "arctic regions", then you are wrong. Here's another Triassic fish;
That's a fossil flying fish, from the Middle Triassic of Southern China. During the Middle Triassic, that region was near the equator. This is clear evidence that well oxygenated waters were not limited to polar regions during the Triassic. Perfectly viable waters spanned the globe. Low-oxygen conditions were common, just as your source notes, but you seem to think that means that they were almost universal; they were not. Well oxygenated waters were common. Plenty of room for fish and other food sources, plenty of room for whales.
I said fish are not found in the anoxic conditions of the triassic, But fish are found in the Triassic. And if the whales' food source is found, then we should find whales. We don't, not until the Eocene, where we find whales thriving in conditions that you claim would prove impossible for them. Stop making excuses. You know perfectly well why we don't find these mythical Triassic whales. It's the same reason we don't find any Permian whales or Jurassic whales; there were no whales! They did not evolve until about two-hundred million years after your P-T Flood. All you are doing by offering up this sorry string of excuses is uncovering more mistakes and more holes in your absurd Flood theory. Mutate and Survive
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mindspawn Member (Idle past 2686 days) Posts: 1015 Joined: |
Stop making excuses. You know perfectly well why we don't find these mythical Triassic whales. It's the same reason we don't find any Permian whales or Jurassic whales; there were no whales! They did not evolve until about two-hundred million years after your P-T Flood. All you are doing by offering up this sorry string of excuses is uncovering more mistakes and more holes in your absurd Flood theory. Whales just recently appeared. You lack transitionary fossils, I lack fossils of their previous existence, scientists agree that the fossil record does not show evidence of the transitionary fossils that indicate the evolution of the various types of whales. Applying Occam's razor and assuming their sudden appearance is due to the disappearance of their reptile competitors when oceans got colder after the Mesozoic, why would "rapid evolving" beat "always there in secluded environments" when neither of us has the fossils to prove our position? I believe the expansion out of secluded environments after the Mesozoic (cold waters where their dominant reptile competitors could not survive) and the lack of fossil research below arctic waters is a common sense explanation for a lack of early whale fossils, what is your explanation for your lack of transitionary fossils for most if not all whale species, and their relatively sudden appearance? Edited by mindspawn, : No reason given. Edited by mindspawn, : No reason given.
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mindspawn Member (Idle past 2686 days) Posts: 1015 Joined: |
In many contexts, pointing out to someone that if they are right, all of science is wrong is a useful technique for stimulating introspection. I just don't think that this is one of those contexts. No, its not one of those contexts. Its not that all of science is wrong, its just that a few categories of science are based on1) radiometric dating (does have scientific backing, but too many assumptions and also a head in the sand approach) 2) evolution (circular reasoning) Remove these two assumptions and apply deductive reasoning to the fossil record in an unbiased manner and we get a whole new picture.
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Dr Adequate Member (Idle past 310 days) Posts: 16113 Joined: |
You lack transitionary fossils ... This is, of course, not true.
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