Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
6 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,810 Year: 3,067/9,624 Month: 912/1,588 Week: 95/223 Day: 6/17 Hour: 2/1


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   The $5,000,000 ID Research Challenge
tesla
Member (Idle past 1593 days)
Posts: 1199
Joined: 12-22-2007


Message 181 of 285 (688537)
01-23-2013 1:10 PM
Reply to: Message 179 by Genomicus
01-23-2013 9:53 AM


Re: Chicken or the Egg?
No, ID is the proposal that life on earth was designed by some intelligence or intelligences.
God defined: " higher being/intelligence/consciousness/ (other definitions?)
Is I.D. true? NOBODY KNOWS. But it is a potential, as no data has ruled it out as a possibility.
It has nothing to do with gods.
Being that I.D. is a proposal of the religious, I would argue it has everything to do with God/gods.
But to clarify my statement: the idea of I.D. as a science should (if it is not already by some) be defined as "the chapter of science that includes the acceptance of the potential of God, and wishes to seek God through legitimate science.

keep your mind from this way of enquiry, for never will you show that not-being is
~parmenides

This message is a reply to:
 Message 179 by Genomicus, posted 01-23-2013 9:53 AM Genomicus has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 185 by Genomicus, posted 01-23-2013 2:05 PM tesla has replied

  
tesla
Member (Idle past 1593 days)
Posts: 1199
Joined: 12-22-2007


Message 182 of 285 (688540)
01-23-2013 1:22 PM
Reply to: Message 180 by ringo
01-23-2013 12:10 PM


Re: Chicken or the Egg?
You seem to be thinking of somebody else. What I've been asking you is how your proposed research would point to God. Would your "God detector" be able to distinguish between, say, a god and a technologically-advanced alien lifeform?
A technologically advanced life form that split DNA between their species and a species of earth to create 'man' would be 'God' in the eyes of some. I.D. states intelligently designed, by some designer.
Einstein said "if we knew what it was we were doing, we wouldn't call it research would we?" (Paraphrased?)
When the God particle was found, it wasn't exactly what was initially thought it would look like. And the same rule applies here. God is defined in many different ways, but every definition I know includes superior knowledge and/or consciousness.
If we can't find one, perhaps we can create one, and from that creation learn what we could not ourselves figure out. (Super A.I. brain) maybe it would find a superior consciousness. With the size of the universe, and evidence that different levels of awareness and consciousness exist per species, it is almost humorous to suggest that human beings on this tiny planet are the best the universe has to offer.
So all I'm getting from you is ignoring all that data I have just stated in a simple post, that God is potential, and it's time we explore those potentials with legitimate science, and reach out to the religious who already seek God with all their minds and hearts (and money) to give those of us who desire to know, a path to begin seriously looking.

keep your mind from this way of enquiry, for never will you show that not-being is
~parmenides

This message is a reply to:
 Message 180 by ringo, posted 01-23-2013 12:10 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 184 by Taq, posted 01-23-2013 1:47 PM tesla has replied
 Message 186 by Genomicus, posted 01-23-2013 2:30 PM tesla has replied
 Message 206 by ringo, posted 01-24-2013 11:55 AM tesla has seen this message but not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9970
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.6


(1)
Message 183 of 285 (688546)
01-23-2013 1:45 PM
Reply to: Message 176 by tesla
01-23-2013 9:43 AM


Re: the answer.
Yes. The difference is they were not seeking higher consciousness. They were seeking a base particle.
In the opening post, I am seeking the history of life, not a higher consciousness.
You ignored everything I said, or failed to comprehend the importance of what I'm pointing out.
I understood it just fine. You wan to punt on the question of ID. You want to get in a spacecraft and find someone who already has the answers because you don't think we can find the answers. That's giving up. That isn't science.
I'm proposing more funding, and to also put such science under the funding topics of "search for God' and Hunt for greater being and intelligence'.
That is not what I was asking for. I am asking for research proposals on life's history, what has already happened.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 176 by tesla, posted 01-23-2013 9:43 AM tesla has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 187 by tesla, posted 01-23-2013 5:25 PM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9970
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.6


Message 184 of 285 (688547)
01-23-2013 1:47 PM
Reply to: Message 182 by tesla
01-23-2013 1:22 PM


Re: Chicken or the Egg?
When the God particle was found, it wasn't exactly what was initially thought it would look like.
Notice that we didn't have to get in a spacecraft and find someone who already knew what the God particle was like. WE FIGURED IT OUT ON OUR OWN. No need for research into space exploration or brain physiology. WE FIGURED IT OUT USING SCIENTIFIC EXPERIMENTS.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 182 by tesla, posted 01-23-2013 1:22 PM tesla has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 188 by tesla, posted 01-23-2013 5:28 PM Taq has replied

  
Genomicus
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 852
Joined: 02-15-2012


Message 185 of 285 (688554)
01-23-2013 2:05 PM
Reply to: Message 181 by tesla
01-23-2013 1:10 PM


Re: Chicken or the Egg?
God defined: " higher being/intelligence/consciousness/ (other definitions?)
That's not the standard definition of God, though, is it? By that definition, an alien race with just a little more intelligence than us would be deities. Let's stick to established definitions instead of making up our own

This message is a reply to:
 Message 181 by tesla, posted 01-23-2013 1:10 PM tesla has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 189 by tesla, posted 01-23-2013 5:30 PM Genomicus has replied

  
Genomicus
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 852
Joined: 02-15-2012


Message 186 of 285 (688558)
01-23-2013 2:30 PM
Reply to: Message 182 by tesla
01-23-2013 1:22 PM


Re: Chicken or the Egg?
A technologically advanced life form that split DNA between their species and a species of earth to create 'man' would be 'God' in the eyes of some. I.D. states intelligently designed, by some designer.
Really? Such advanced life forms would only be "God" in the eyes of someone who has little mastery over the English language. ID states intelligently designed by some designers, but there's no need to bring deities into the discussion.
God is defined in many different ways, but every definition I know includes superior knowledge and/or consciousness.
It includes superior knowledge but that's not the only characteristic attributed to deity. Again, let's not start making up our own definitions. If you want a definition of God, you may examine the contemporary philosophical literature on the subject.
So all I'm getting from you is ignoring all that data I have just stated in a simple post, that God is potential, and it's time we explore those potentials with legitimate science, and reach out to the religious who already seek God with all their minds and hearts (and money) to give those of us who desire to know, a path to begin seriously looking.
God is potential? What does that even mean?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 182 by tesla, posted 01-23-2013 1:22 PM tesla has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 190 by tesla, posted 01-23-2013 5:32 PM Genomicus has not replied

  
tesla
Member (Idle past 1593 days)
Posts: 1199
Joined: 12-22-2007


Message 187 of 285 (688574)
01-23-2013 5:25 PM
Reply to: Message 183 by Taq
01-23-2013 1:45 PM


Re: the answer.
In the opening post, I am seeking the history of life, not a higher consciousness.
And if the history of life involves higher consciousness, it is relevant. And no data has shown that it isn't possible that life was planted by a higher evolved species, or by decision of a greater being we exist inside of. Potentials are almost limitless. So history of life includes my proposals to discover the truth.
I understood it just fine. You wan to punt on the question of ID. You want to get in a spacecraft and find someone who already has the answers because you don't think we can find the answers. That's giving up. That isn't science.
Since when is scientific exploration 'giving up'? I'm not giving up. YOU are, by suggesting it's not worth scientific exploration.
That is not what I was asking for. I am asking for research proposals on life's history, what has already happened
And since there are still many questions concerning that, I believe whatever way we can discover those answers relevant for research.

keep your mind from this way of enquiry, for never will you show that not-being is
~parmenides

This message is a reply to:
 Message 183 by Taq, posted 01-23-2013 1:45 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 192 by Taq, posted 01-23-2013 6:29 PM tesla has replied

  
tesla
Member (Idle past 1593 days)
Posts: 1199
Joined: 12-22-2007


Message 188 of 285 (688575)
01-23-2013 5:28 PM
Reply to: Message 184 by Taq
01-23-2013 1:47 PM


Re: Chicken or the Egg?
Notice that we didn't have to get in a spacecraft and find someone who already knew what the God particle was like. WE FIGURED IT OUT ON OUR OWN. No need for research into space exploration or brain physiology. WE FIGURED IT OUT USING SCIENTIFIC EXPERIMENTS.
Experiments that would have been impossible to run with the knowledge and technology of the 1920’s!

keep your mind from this way of enquiry, for never will you show that not-being is
~parmenides

This message is a reply to:
 Message 184 by Taq, posted 01-23-2013 1:47 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 191 by Taq, posted 01-23-2013 6:27 PM tesla has replied

  
tesla
Member (Idle past 1593 days)
Posts: 1199
Joined: 12-22-2007


Message 189 of 285 (688576)
01-23-2013 5:30 PM
Reply to: Message 185 by Genomicus
01-23-2013 2:05 PM


Re: Chicken or the Egg?
Let's stick to established definitions instead of making up our own
You are not very educated are you? How about an etymology of the word God since you’re so convinced I'm using it wrong. Shall we?

keep your mind from this way of enquiry, for never will you show that not-being is
~parmenides

This message is a reply to:
 Message 185 by Genomicus, posted 01-23-2013 2:05 PM Genomicus has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 193 by Genomicus, posted 01-23-2013 6:42 PM tesla has replied

  
tesla
Member (Idle past 1593 days)
Posts: 1199
Joined: 12-22-2007


Message 190 of 285 (688577)
01-23-2013 5:32 PM
Reply to: Message 186 by Genomicus
01-23-2013 2:30 PM


Re: Chicken or the Egg?
God is potential? What does that even mean?
It means you do not have any understanding of the English language.

keep your mind from this way of enquiry, for never will you show that not-being is
~parmenides

This message is a reply to:
 Message 186 by Genomicus, posted 01-23-2013 2:30 PM Genomicus has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9970
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.6


(1)
Message 191 of 285 (688584)
01-23-2013 6:27 PM
Reply to: Message 188 by tesla
01-23-2013 5:28 PM


Re: Chicken or the Egg?
Experiments that would have been impossible to run with the knowledge and technology of the 1920’s!
But not impossible with the brainpower of people from the 1920's. They didn't get this knowledge and technology by traveling in space and having someone give them this technology and knowledge. They got this technology and knowledge from doing experiments that were meant to investigate what makes up the atom. Rutherford did not build a spacecraft and try to find someone that already had the answers. He bombarded atoms with charged particles in the search for atomic nuclei. HE DID THE EXPERIMENTS.
Experiments 100 years from now will be built on the technology and knowledge derived from the LHC, not from flying in space to find someone that already has the answers.
What I am asking for is the experiments that should be run to investigate the history of life on this planet so that we can start down this path. What are these experiments?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 188 by tesla, posted 01-23-2013 5:28 PM tesla has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 194 by tesla, posted 01-23-2013 7:00 PM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9970
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.6


Message 192 of 285 (688587)
01-23-2013 6:29 PM
Reply to: Message 187 by tesla
01-23-2013 5:25 PM


Re: the answer.
And no data has shown that it isn't possible that life was planted by a higher evolved species, or by decision of a greater being we exist inside of.
What data has shown that it is true? What experiments can I run to test this hypothesis?
Since when is scientific exploration 'giving up'?
The moment you refuse to do experiments and look for people who already have the answer.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 187 by tesla, posted 01-23-2013 5:25 PM tesla has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 195 by tesla, posted 01-23-2013 7:06 PM Taq has replied

  
Genomicus
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 852
Joined: 02-15-2012


Message 193 of 285 (688589)
01-23-2013 6:42 PM
Reply to: Message 189 by tesla
01-23-2013 5:30 PM


Re: Chicken or the Egg?
You are not very educated are you?
That may be true. My education, or lack thereof, however, is irrelevant to this discussion.
How about an etymology of the word God since you’re so convinced I'm using it wrong. Shall we?
Yes, we could go down that route. Or you could see how the contemporary philosophy literature defines "God." This is not to say that there is any fixed definition of "God." But of all the definitions philosophers will offer up, none of them amount to merely a being that possesses higher intelligence than humanity.
God is potential? What does that even mean?
It means you do not have any understanding of the English language.
Mmk.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 189 by tesla, posted 01-23-2013 5:30 PM tesla has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 196 by tesla, posted 01-23-2013 7:18 PM Genomicus has replied

  
tesla
Member (Idle past 1593 days)
Posts: 1199
Joined: 12-22-2007


Message 194 of 285 (688590)
01-23-2013 7:00 PM
Reply to: Message 191 by Taq
01-23-2013 6:27 PM


Re: Chicken or the Egg?
But not impossible with the brainpower of people from the 1920's. They didn't get this knowledge and technology by traveling in space and having someone give them this technology and knowledge. They got this technology and knowledge from doing experiments that were meant to investigate what makes up the atom. Rutherford did not build a spacecraft and try to find someone that already had the answers. He bombarded atoms with charged particles in the search for atomic nuclei. HE DID THE EXPERIMENTS.
On particles . The object of this endeavor is to answer whether or not intelligence and design are a part of life’s history. What good is a particle accelerator in discovering greater consciousness or being?
You’re asking me to give you an experiment to prove there is greater being, without looking for greater being. And who can do that? the research that needs done in the search for greater being is research on capabilities to first understand consciousness enough to be able to run experiments based on that knowledge. Yes Rutherford ran experiments, but the gold foil experiment next to the LHC is like comparing the first wheel next to today’s blue tooth robotically driven electric car. The capabilities and knowledge have to be available.
We have places to start. Improve space travel. Improve understanding of human consciousness and its algorithms. You want the end game experiments? Who knows what will be found along the way? One potential I already said to you, would be to monitor the electromagnetic spectrum for likenesses next to brain communication. But we don't know exactly how the brain works yet do we?
If you cannot see that after as many times as I've said it, then you never will, and you’re just as bad as an indoctrinated man who believes only what he was told and cannot by himself reason.

keep your mind from this way of enquiry, for never will you show that not-being is
~parmenides

This message is a reply to:
 Message 191 by Taq, posted 01-23-2013 6:27 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 207 by Taq, posted 01-24-2013 3:15 PM tesla has replied

  
tesla
Member (Idle past 1593 days)
Posts: 1199
Joined: 12-22-2007


Message 195 of 285 (688592)
01-23-2013 7:06 PM
Reply to: Message 192 by Taq
01-23-2013 6:29 PM


Re: the answer.
And no data has shown that it isn't possible that life was planted by a higher evolved species, or by decision of a greater being we exist inside of.
What data has shown that it is true? What experiments can I run to test this hypothesis?
That’s just it Taq. The lack of evidence means we need to start looking deeper into what we know about the possibilities that exist concerning greater being potentials, and how to find them. There is not enough data to conclude anything other than "I do not know" by anyone who is honest about what so called data we have concerning the issue.
So it would be wise to accept the truth of the possibility, and fund science endeavors that may one day lead to a breakthrough concerning the question of God, and Life's origins.
That is the whole premise of having an 'I.D. science theory'. It is possible. And most people accept that. But no data can say either way at this time.

keep your mind from this way of enquiry, for never will you show that not-being is
~parmenides

This message is a reply to:
 Message 192 by Taq, posted 01-23-2013 6:29 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 208 by Taq, posted 01-24-2013 3:19 PM tesla has seen this message but not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024