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Author Topic:   The $5,000,000 ID Research Challenge
tesla
Member (Idle past 1592 days)
Posts: 1199
Joined: 12-22-2007


Message 190 of 285 (688577)
01-23-2013 5:32 PM
Reply to: Message 186 by Genomicus
01-23-2013 2:30 PM


Re: Chicken or the Egg?
God is potential? What does that even mean?
It means you do not have any understanding of the English language.

keep your mind from this way of enquiry, for never will you show that not-being is
~parmenides

This message is a reply to:
 Message 186 by Genomicus, posted 01-23-2013 2:30 PM Genomicus has not replied

  
tesla
Member (Idle past 1592 days)
Posts: 1199
Joined: 12-22-2007


Message 194 of 285 (688590)
01-23-2013 7:00 PM
Reply to: Message 191 by Taq
01-23-2013 6:27 PM


Re: Chicken or the Egg?
But not impossible with the brainpower of people from the 1920's. They didn't get this knowledge and technology by traveling in space and having someone give them this technology and knowledge. They got this technology and knowledge from doing experiments that were meant to investigate what makes up the atom. Rutherford did not build a spacecraft and try to find someone that already had the answers. He bombarded atoms with charged particles in the search for atomic nuclei. HE DID THE EXPERIMENTS.
On particles . The object of this endeavor is to answer whether or not intelligence and design are a part of life’s history. What good is a particle accelerator in discovering greater consciousness or being?
You’re asking me to give you an experiment to prove there is greater being, without looking for greater being. And who can do that? the research that needs done in the search for greater being is research on capabilities to first understand consciousness enough to be able to run experiments based on that knowledge. Yes Rutherford ran experiments, but the gold foil experiment next to the LHC is like comparing the first wheel next to today’s blue tooth robotically driven electric car. The capabilities and knowledge have to be available.
We have places to start. Improve space travel. Improve understanding of human consciousness and its algorithms. You want the end game experiments? Who knows what will be found along the way? One potential I already said to you, would be to monitor the electromagnetic spectrum for likenesses next to brain communication. But we don't know exactly how the brain works yet do we?
If you cannot see that after as many times as I've said it, then you never will, and you’re just as bad as an indoctrinated man who believes only what he was told and cannot by himself reason.

keep your mind from this way of enquiry, for never will you show that not-being is
~parmenides

This message is a reply to:
 Message 191 by Taq, posted 01-23-2013 6:27 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 207 by Taq, posted 01-24-2013 3:15 PM tesla has replied

  
tesla
Member (Idle past 1592 days)
Posts: 1199
Joined: 12-22-2007


Message 195 of 285 (688592)
01-23-2013 7:06 PM
Reply to: Message 192 by Taq
01-23-2013 6:29 PM


Re: the answer.
And no data has shown that it isn't possible that life was planted by a higher evolved species, or by decision of a greater being we exist inside of.
What data has shown that it is true? What experiments can I run to test this hypothesis?
That’s just it Taq. The lack of evidence means we need to start looking deeper into what we know about the possibilities that exist concerning greater being potentials, and how to find them. There is not enough data to conclude anything other than "I do not know" by anyone who is honest about what so called data we have concerning the issue.
So it would be wise to accept the truth of the possibility, and fund science endeavors that may one day lead to a breakthrough concerning the question of God, and Life's origins.
That is the whole premise of having an 'I.D. science theory'. It is possible. And most people accept that. But no data can say either way at this time.

keep your mind from this way of enquiry, for never will you show that not-being is
~parmenides

This message is a reply to:
 Message 192 by Taq, posted 01-23-2013 6:29 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 208 by Taq, posted 01-24-2013 3:19 PM tesla has seen this message but not replied

  
tesla
Member (Idle past 1592 days)
Posts: 1199
Joined: 12-22-2007


Message 196 of 285 (688595)
01-23-2013 7:18 PM
Reply to: Message 193 by Genomicus
01-23-2013 6:42 PM


Re: Chicken or the Egg?
I apologize for my rudeness. I had thought you were educated and giving me a hard time.

keep your mind from this way of enquiry, for never will you show that not-being is
~parmenides

This message is a reply to:
 Message 193 by Genomicus, posted 01-23-2013 6:42 PM Genomicus has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 197 by Genomicus, posted 01-23-2013 7:28 PM tesla has replied

  
tesla
Member (Idle past 1592 days)
Posts: 1199
Joined: 12-22-2007


Message 209 of 285 (689600)
02-01-2013 11:27 AM
Reply to: Message 197 by Genomicus
01-23-2013 7:28 PM


Re: Chicken or the Egg?
The English you wish clarified is simply stated and clear. Please restate any confusions of how I define words that are not used in the same manner or definitions by individuals with similar teachings of how to use ambiguous words... and I will attempt to explain the definitions so that you understand the idea I am attempting to relay.

keep your mind from this way of enquiry, for never will you show that not-being is
~parmenides

This message is a reply to:
 Message 197 by Genomicus, posted 01-23-2013 7:28 PM Genomicus has not replied

  
tesla
Member (Idle past 1592 days)
Posts: 1199
Joined: 12-22-2007


Message 210 of 285 (689604)
02-01-2013 11:34 AM
Reply to: Message 198 by RAZD
01-23-2013 8:04 PM


Re: the answer.
Try the Discovery Institute ...
Discovery Institute - Wikipedia
If that write up is accurate the discovery institute is unacceptable.
Teaching 'anti-evolution' does not fit the goals of science, which in my opinion, will not throw away science when offering alternate theories or possibilities.
Evolution does not teach that God is not, or that I.D. is not a possibility: if it is being taught that way, then the teachers are being just as indoctrinating and foolish as those who teach two of every animal will fit on a boat.

keep your mind from this way of enquiry, for never will you show that not-being is
~parmenides

This message is a reply to:
 Message 198 by RAZD, posted 01-23-2013 8:04 PM RAZD has seen this message but not replied

  
tesla
Member (Idle past 1592 days)
Posts: 1199
Joined: 12-22-2007


Message 211 of 285 (689607)
02-01-2013 11:54 AM
Reply to: Message 199 by AZPaul3
01-23-2013 8:41 PM


Re: the answer.
OK. Maybe we are getting somewhere.
So what is an "I.D. Hub"?
Perhaps we finally are!
An I.D. hub would operate as follows, but would need certain admissions from the global science community to be effective.
Imagine a building dedicated to dispersing money to scientific pursuits, with a name, and a mission statement, and scientific validation as a legitimate scientific source.
It would contain a director of science, a director of funds, and a team of scientists whose duties would be to relay discoveries in their fields. The fields would be astrophysics, Brain sciences, space technology/engineering, and A.I engineers. (Basic idea, a greater expert can find exactly what fields would aid in space exploration, brain and consciousness mapping, and A.I/Robotics)
Now here is the most important part: the branch under which this building operates would have to be legitimately accepted by scientists and relayed to the public as the wing of science Dedicated to the Search for God and the understanding of Life through real world data. It has to properly say: "We are after answering the question: What is God, does God exist, And how can man communicate more directly." and that its path to do so is through understanding consciousness, advancing greater consciousness via modeling current conscious systems, and by exploring technology and waves of the electromagnetic spectrum from greater space to find greater being, therefore 'God".
If world science panels back the endeavor, they could then reach out to al religious communities publicly and say: We are open to the possibility that God is real, and we are asking you religious who truly believe that God is, to fund the search for God as it has never been done before. as seeking God is the number one pursuit of those in religion, and the belief he exists is so strong in believers, that science will say: We believe in the potential, so let's find him, and prove to all mankind that God is: because God if he is: is a real thing.
If you remember, I once stated years ago: that if science was to gain enough knowledge, that it would proclaim that God IS. Many others feel that way, and would fund true pursuit. But the non-believers who use religion to finance ignorance and indoctrination will fight that. But that is where science will have the opportunity to say: why are you concerned? If God is, with your help, we will prove it to the world and then also accuse naysayers of religious reason not to fund the science is because they do not have true belief that God is, and rob people of their money to keep the truth hidden.

keep your mind from this way of enquiry, for never will you show that not-being is
~parmenides

This message is a reply to:
 Message 199 by AZPaul3, posted 01-23-2013 8:41 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 213 by AZPaul3, posted 02-01-2013 3:41 PM tesla has replied
 Message 214 by Taq, posted 02-04-2013 12:59 PM tesla has seen this message but not replied

  
tesla
Member (Idle past 1592 days)
Posts: 1199
Joined: 12-22-2007


Message 212 of 285 (689608)
02-01-2013 12:05 PM
Reply to: Message 207 by Taq
01-24-2013 3:15 PM


Re: Chicken or the Egg?
That is what I am asking for, experiments in the field of biology that will grow our knowledge of technology with respect to intelligent design
In Biology, the brain and its consciousness is the most direct way to explore the potential of God. Until we further our knowledge of how the electromagnetic spectrum reads and writes to produce 'consciousness' then we do not know what to look for in other waves of the electromagnetic spectrum to find that greater consciousness.
Now I'm losing a little patience with you for ignoring this statement: The specifics of how to obtain that kind of information within our capabilities is beyond my pay grade, I only know that the field is in constant evolution, and extra financing in the areas attempting to dissect consciousness will quicken our understanding. There are many different experiments requiring many different tools, and if funded, the science would be legitimately opening the door towards finding God by first understanding the physics behind our species.

keep your mind from this way of enquiry, for never will you show that not-being is
~parmenides

This message is a reply to:
 Message 207 by Taq, posted 01-24-2013 3:15 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 215 by Taq, posted 02-04-2013 1:01 PM tesla has seen this message but not replied

  
tesla
Member (Idle past 1592 days)
Posts: 1199
Joined: 12-22-2007


Message 216 of 285 (689800)
02-04-2013 6:04 PM
Reply to: Message 213 by AZPaul3
02-01-2013 3:41 PM


Re: the answer.
Three items in response, tesla.
The research you are talking about is already going on involving millions of scientists of all disciplines all around the world. We are trying to find the keys to consciousness, studying brain and mind, artificial intelligence, psychology, physiology, astrophysics, astrobiology and on and on. Every discipline you mentioned and hundreds more you did not mention we are studying in earnest today.
The only difference between this and what you are asking for is that we are not doing this in the name of looking for some kind of god. We are doing this out of curiosity, to learn, because we can, we want to and to further the knowledge and development of our species.
We are scientists. The scientific method is rather sticky about the details of a research proposal. You have to state in detail your specific hypothesis, in detail the results you might reasonable expect to find, in the most excruciating detail the exact technologies, methods, math and logic you are going to use, and, finally, what impact on the field your results may hold. It furthers nothing to add and we may find god. It is superfluous. There is nothing in any god hypothesis that merits inclusion. Quite the opposite. We are required to ignore all un-evidenced speculations, be they fairies or inter-dimensional spaghetti. Since there is no viable logic or reasoning, let alone any real data, that suggests some god hypothesis might be a consideration we are forced to ignore this speculation.
Do hsa-mir-181a and hsa-mir-181b function as tumor suppressors in human glioma cells?
Versus
Looking for God in whether hsa-mir-181a and hsa-mir-181b function as tumor suppressors in human glioma cells.
Finally, do you think that with all those scientists studying all those areas if there is hard objective evidence of some god (the kind of evidence you think may be out there) we will somehow miss it if our research proposal does not state we a specifically looking for it? If such evidence is out there don’t you think we will find it even if we are not looking for it?
I lied, one more item.
Religion’s history with science is one of suppression, ignorance and violence. This has not changed as evidenced by how religion is trying to suppress the science on abortion, stem cells, child immunization, global warming and other subjects they see as against their gods or their holy books or their creeds. So fuck religion. We don’t want their money.
I do not think your ideas are viable.
Curiosity needs direction. We humans can only interpret data within the limitations of the mind to interpret data based on our viewpoints on what that explains. So, although it is conducting the same research, it is excelling that research, and then comparing the data of that research to say: other wavelengths of the electromagnetic spectrum to see if similar algorithms of conscious type activity are present and potentially interpretable. that’s the biology side.
The other side is less biological, but no less important: building greater consciousness by mimicking the brain with silicon technology and electrical function and energy through which we can supply much more energy than the human body can for a brain.
And finally admitting we need better space travel capabilities, and have a lot of room to grow in the area of space travel at this time.
To your final admission that Fuck the religious, you are blaming people for the indoctrination they have had since a child, and their societies agree with. Whatever experience you have had with religion, lack of education on the matter is the issue, and not the indoctrinated, who have been taught foolishly, and can learn. But if you refuse to acknowledge your ignorance, why would they take you seriously?
I lied: the final note is anyone who will pretend to know whether or not 'God is, or 'is not' is just as stupid and ignorant as the indoctrinated who claim without doubt he is. You do not know how existence is possible, or the limits of the universe, and thinking like that is just as dangerous as being a religious fanatic for the progress of knowledge. Admit where your knowledge stops, that’s the first step to obtaining more wisdom, are you a complete fool? Am I?
I wish to have a hub to direct those sciences with the intended search to explore the possibilities that consciousness does not stop with human biology, and could very well encompass systems that apparently are non-life, but just like the carbon that makes up your body, it is a part of a life that is conscious. It’s potential. And not so ludicrous given the scientific data that shows all life to be composed of what is considered non-life.
Edited by tesla, : stop/stops

keep your mind from this way of enquiry, for never will you show that not-being is
~parmenides

This message is a reply to:
 Message 213 by AZPaul3, posted 02-01-2013 3:41 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 217 by Taq, posted 02-05-2013 1:18 PM tesla has replied
 Message 218 by AZPaul3, posted 02-05-2013 2:52 PM tesla has replied

  
tesla
Member (Idle past 1592 days)
Posts: 1199
Joined: 12-22-2007


Message 219 of 285 (690414)
02-12-2013 10:27 PM
Reply to: Message 217 by Taq
02-05-2013 1:18 PM


Re: the answer.
We humans can only interpret data within the limitations of the mind to interpret data based on our viewpoints on what that explains.
Why is that insufficient?
Let's use other examples, such as lightning. At one time in history, lightning was claimed by some to be the product of supernatural activity. Through time, we were able to use our minds to discover that lightning was actually the product of natural mechanisms, not supernatural mechanisms. Why can't use these same minds to look at the evidence in the field of biology and determine if the history of life was a product of natural or supernatural mechanisms in the same way?
IOW, you have failed to ever demonstrate that we are currently unable to determine if the history of life was influenced by a designer.
So use your mind again, and realize that just because God appears above understanding does not mean God really IS beyon understanding.
Supernatural by definition means apparently not natural. But apparently not natural has been discovered natural. And so also would it be with 'God' if greater consciousness exists.
Tell me this, do you wonder if neurons believe themselves independent? if we interpret the collective thoughts of the many neurons, perhaps a greater embodiment could see the collective of human thoughts. It's potential . And ignoring that truth is stupidity. Think about it.

keep your mind from this way of enquiry, for never will you show that not-being is
~parmenides

This message is a reply to:
 Message 217 by Taq, posted 02-05-2013 1:18 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 222 by Taq, posted 02-13-2013 11:38 AM tesla has seen this message but not replied

  
tesla
Member (Idle past 1592 days)
Posts: 1199
Joined: 12-22-2007


Message 220 of 285 (690418)
02-12-2013 10:44 PM
Reply to: Message 218 by AZPaul3
02-05-2013 2:52 PM


Re: the answer.
I personally feel that there is more that we will never know then what we will ever know.
Now see, that is the same attitude the worst scientists of all time have believed, and have harshly held back advancements of the greatest scientists of all time: including Einstein, because of shallow thinking and believing that you know the limits of what science can know.
Yesterday’s beliefs become tomorrow’s myths, and if you don't believe me, look at history. Open your mind; there is a shit-ton we don't know. But recognizing that we may be able to learn " Just a little more."
Correct, we can not say with absolute certainty. Nor can we say with absolute certainty that Santa Claus or some inter-dimensional bowl of some spaghetti deity exist or not.
You are committing a fallacy! You want to compare a legitimate proposal of what is not known to a generalized description of what we KNOW we made up. That’s not fair, that is sophistry.
Frankly, I am not beyond answering both in the affirmative.
Foolish or not, your ideas are not viable.
Well just because that is your conclusion does not mean others are not more realistic in their thinking. You’re blinded by a hatred of religions.

keep your mind from this way of enquiry, for never will you show that not-being is
~parmenides

This message is a reply to:
 Message 218 by AZPaul3, posted 02-05-2013 2:52 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 221 by AZPaul3, posted 02-13-2013 8:20 AM tesla has replied

  
tesla
Member (Idle past 1592 days)
Posts: 1199
Joined: 12-22-2007


Message 223 of 285 (690855)
02-16-2013 10:43 PM
Reply to: Message 221 by AZPaul3
02-13-2013 8:20 AM


Re: the answer.
As we search and learn if we find some kind of god so be it. Most likely more Spinozan than anything else. But I will not waste my limited resources looking for one. We have so much more to discover.
All I'm wanting is science to have another possibility to be entertained while examining data. Not "goddidit" but rather: 'what wavelengths are carrying transmissions that match consciousness in behavior.' (if the question isn’t at least asked, any relevant data could be missed)
That means understanding consciousness, and it also means scientists not being taught that creation is only possible by supernatural means, since all that is a part of existence is natural to it.
Don't waste your time. but at the very least throw off that monkey keeping you from being productive that forces you to believe you know something that cannot be known yet. If you begin to believe you actually know something about whether or not there is a god or Gods, you have committed a lie to yourself. That’s dangerous for all who need wisdom in their work.
And yes concerning our history of God or Gods, I believe you are most probably accurate. But that doesn't mean that the mystery of existence does not actually include one or more in its miracle of being.
I can only lament that though I have failed to convince you of anything, that there is a lot of money the religious will continue to waste on indoctrination because in their minds that is the only way to look for God, who they depend on to explain how existence is possible, instead of legitimate sciences being funded that could lead to a finding such being through the pursuits of the natural sciences, and it's discoveries along the way being beneficial even if nothing is discovered.
I was led to science as a child dreaming of discovery, and when I go to my grave I will still tell those that will hear: my love of science, is in the beauty of discoveries.

keep your mind from this way of enquiry, for never will you show that not-being is
~parmenides

This message is a reply to:
 Message 221 by AZPaul3, posted 02-13-2013 8:20 AM AZPaul3 has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 224 by Coyote, posted 02-16-2013 11:16 PM tesla has not replied
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