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Author Topic:   gravity
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 8 of 81 (688106)
01-19-2013 2:31 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by AZPaul3
01-19-2013 1:11 AM


Re: Equivalence Principal
If all you had in the universe were the apple and the sledge hammer then the two would each exert a force on the other with the sledge having the greater force thus moving the apple further, but not faster, than the apple moves the sledge.
Maybe I am misreading this, but your comment seems off. The gravitational force exerted on the earth by the moon is exactly equal and opposite to the gravitational force exerted on the moon by the earth. The resultant accelerations on the two bodies are different. The result is that the two objects orbit the moon-earth barycenter which is located inside the earth. The moon moves both farther and faster than the earth due to their mutual gravitational attraction.
Two objects of different masses falling towards earth experience the same acceleration because despite experiencing different forces proportional to their respective masses, each object resists accelerating in response to force due to its inertia, with said inertia also being proportional to its mass.
So the heavier object receives a larger force, but since a =F/m, the larger force results in the same acceleration generated by the smaller force on the smaller object.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by AZPaul3, posted 01-19-2013 1:11 AM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by AZPaul3, posted 01-19-2013 9:26 AM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 9 of 81 (688107)
01-19-2013 2:38 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by shadow71
01-18-2013 7:08 PM


Gravity is a phenomenon that results from the curvature of space-time. It likely existed at every moment after the big bang when there was any energy and any time and space.
I'd say that it is natural, but then I don't know what it would mean to call it metaphysical.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by shadow71, posted 01-18-2013 7:08 PM shadow71 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by shadow71, posted 01-19-2013 9:14 AM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 10 of 81 (688109)
01-19-2013 3:01 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by Dogmafood
01-18-2013 11:53 PM


Re: Equivalence Principal
If the attractive force of gravity is proportional to the mass of two bodies, why does an object of greater mass not fall quicker?
If you wanted a huge big rock to accelerate the same as a small one, would you use a smaller or larger force on the big rock? Remember F=ma.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Dogmafood, posted 01-18-2013 11:53 PM Dogmafood has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by Dogmafood, posted 01-19-2013 9:20 AM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 15 of 81 (688167)
01-20-2013 12:23 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by petrophysics1
01-19-2013 3:59 AM


Re: Equivalence Principal
When people push a heavy object, after they overcome the force of friction,
If friction is present, then you do have to apply a constant force just to keep an object moving at constant velocity.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by petrophysics1, posted 01-19-2013 3:59 AM petrophysics1 has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 16 of 81 (688168)
01-20-2013 12:42 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by shadow71
01-19-2013 9:14 AM


My question goes to the beginning of gravity.
I understand that.
But consider that the accepted theories of the origin of the universe do not include the origins of matter, energy, momentum, or tension-stress. Gravity is present whenever those things are present. Perhaps the problem is that the BBT is not the origin of everything story your question assumes it to be.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by shadow71, posted 01-19-2013 9:14 AM shadow71 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by shadow71, posted 01-20-2013 1:23 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 22 of 81 (688191)
01-20-2013 2:08 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by shadow71
01-20-2013 1:23 PM


I guess I am looking for some studies or opinions based on scientific evidence why Schroeder may be wrong.
How about some quotes or pointers to Schroeder's writings?

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by shadow71, posted 01-20-2013 1:23 PM shadow71 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by shadow71, posted 01-20-2013 4:08 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 24 of 81 (688202)
01-20-2013 5:04 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by shadow71
01-20-2013 4:08 PM


He goes on about the extraordinary unity of the energy forces that it is not natural but metaphysical.
Sounds like some form of ID/fine tuning argument to me. I'm trying to work up some interest in picking up the book, but I cannot find much info about "The Hidden Face of God" on the net other than some reviews that do not pique my interest.
I'm probably not going to have any serious comment until I am more familiar with what Shroeder is discussing.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by shadow71, posted 01-20-2013 4:08 PM shadow71 has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by AZPaul3, posted 01-20-2013 7:39 PM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 37 of 81 (688345)
01-21-2013 10:26 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by shadow71
01-20-2013 7:59 PM


You should be alert for some bias in his review.
I've read the criticisms of Schroeder's work in the review. I am still trying to decide whether I want to pay the money needed to buy and read his book. I suspect that you don't agree with the criticisms, which is fine.
My question for you is whether the review minus the rebuttal fairly describes any of Schroeder's arguments. Is Schroeder's position more nuanced than Oser allows for.
I will say this. Oser's dissection of Schoeder's "proof" that the universe has a non-natural origin is not new material. I've seen each of his arguments before in these forums. I've made some of them myself.
I'll have to admit that I am personally highly skeptical that it is possible identify God or his authorship through scientific means. That's why I believe ID is ultimately a dead end. I fear that I am going to find Schroeder's book both silly and unnecessary. I'm looking for a good book review that says otherwise.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by shadow71, posted 01-20-2013 7:59 PM shadow71 has seen this message but not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 38 of 81 (688347)
01-21-2013 10:40 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by shadow71
01-21-2013 3:54 PM


I was a trial lawyer in med mal and products liability and we always had experts with opinions basically opposite of each other.
The jury decided who was right or wrong.
I understand why this method of investigation is appealing to you. You are completely familiar with this method of investigation.
But quite frankly, who cares what a jury of lay people decide about which of these two scientists to believe? What really matters is what people who know the topic at hand think. A real jury would likely exclude all physicists. Yet who would be better positioned to appreciate the correctness of a physicists argument.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by shadow71, posted 01-21-2013 3:54 PM shadow71 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by shadow71, posted 01-23-2013 11:51 AM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 51 of 81 (688623)
01-23-2013 11:48 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by shadow71
01-23-2013 11:51 AM


But don't lay people have the responsibility to read what qualifed experts opinions are and then make a rationale decision as to who is correct?
If they have such a responsibility it is a responsibility more often breached than observed. Do you believe that people shoulder that responsibility outside of a courtroom? What per cent of people have an informed scientific opinion on global warming or any other scientific question? I suspect that most people have not done any kind of weighing of evidence to form their opinions.
Lay people form opinions because that's we people do. Often those opinions are uninformed, contrary to the evidence, irrational and wrong. Sometimes the opinions are correct for illogical reasons.
In fact, lay people get things wrong often enough that we don't leave certain questions, (for example patent claim constructions) to juries, because injustice results.
I as a person who believes in the God of the Roman Catholic church take umbage when a scientists writes in a review that only 20% of physicists are theists. What revelance does that have to a scientific issue?
Was that Oser's most significant criticism? I don't think so. In my opinion Oser pointed to a number of substantial logical flaws in Schroeder's arguments. Of course those flaws don't prove that Schroeder is wrong, but they do dismiss the claim that his conclusions are inevitable.
What revelance does that have to a scientific issue?
Ultimately, Shroeder's argument is not scientific. The question of how many physicists are theists is relevant to whether Schroeder's arguments are compelling to other scientists. If we were actually having a jury decide this issue, a mechanism that I think is inappropriate, then the weight of scientific opinion is relevant.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by shadow71, posted 01-23-2013 11:51 AM shadow71 has seen this message but not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 52 of 81 (688624)
01-23-2013 11:57 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by shadow71
01-23-2013 7:01 PM


Time exists at the earliest point in time by your definition. by human definition. Oser's point is reasonable only if you believe there is no other option than naturalism.
In other words, you reach Schroeder's result by assuming the answer to the question at hand. You might well be right, but your thought process is not logical. You are reaching your result because of your religious belief. That's fine, but that is not what Schroeder is purporting to do.
Further, Oser does not argue that time must have been created with the universe only that Schroeder completely dismisses this possibility without giving any reason.
Added by Edit:
If there is a supernatural being beyond time as we know it, then it is obvious that a supernatural being that created this universe, was before the time of this universe.
Is this really the only possibility? I don't think your conclusion follows from the premise that there is a supernatural being beyond time, but perhaps you've simply skipped a few steps in the syllogism. How about filling those in for me?
I actually do believe that God created the universe. What I do not believe is that you can prove or disprove such a thing scientifically. Further, you don't appear to be making any attempt to do so, or to defend Schroeder's attempt at doing so. So what exactly are you arguing here?
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by shadow71, posted 01-23-2013 7:01 PM shadow71 has seen this message but not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 55 of 81 (688780)
01-25-2013 11:28 AM
Reply to: Message 54 by zi ko
01-25-2013 11:21 AM


Scot Osser' s opinion in his Shroeder's critique, that energy could be the result of matter or that matter and energy are equivalent as regards sequence, seems to me wrong.
What form would energy without matter take?

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by zi ko, posted 01-25-2013 11:21 AM zi ko has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 56 by 1.61803, posted 01-25-2013 11:53 AM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied
 Message 58 by AZPaul3, posted 01-25-2013 5:59 PM NoNukes has replied
 Message 63 by zi ko, posted 01-27-2013 5:18 AM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 60 of 81 (688897)
01-26-2013 10:04 AM
Reply to: Message 58 by AZPaul3
01-25-2013 5:59 PM


horta?
I don't understand your answer.
There are answers to my question. Energy can be propagated in fields without propagating matter. The idea was to start a discussion that would shed light on zi ko's errors.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by AZPaul3, posted 01-25-2013 5:59 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 61 by AZPaul3, posted 01-26-2013 12:51 PM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 68 of 81 (689016)
01-27-2013 2:21 PM
Reply to: Message 64 by zi ko
01-27-2013 5:29 AM


AZPaul3 writes:
Photons would be an excellent example. All wavelengths of the EM spectrum.
zi ko writes:
These are coming from disindigrating matter. They are just results.
So the energy comes from matter? Isn't this the opposite of what you were trying to say originally?
Besides that, your response is nonsense. It is not necessary to disintegrate matter to produce EM radiation. Accelerating a charged particle is sufficient.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by zi ko, posted 01-27-2013 5:29 AM zi ko has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 69 by cavediver, posted 01-27-2013 2:34 PM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied
 Message 80 by zi ko, posted 01-31-2013 9:19 AM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

  
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