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Author Topic:   Omniscience, Omnipotence, the Fall & Logical Contradictions.
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 54 of 354 (354942)
10-07-2006 1:07 AM
Reply to: Message 53 by xXGEARXx
10-07-2006 12:49 AM


Re: mark23+1
xXGEARXx writes:
God can choose to simply not "look" into the future at any given time.
Ah, the Bart Simpson Defense: "I could look into the future, but I don't wanna".
An omnipotent being can see without looking, so how can it prevent itself from being omniscient?

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by xXGEARXx, posted 10-07-2006 12:49 AM xXGEARXx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 55 by tudwell, posted 10-07-2006 11:29 AM ringo has seen this message but not replied
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ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 79 of 354 (356499)
10-14-2006 2:36 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by xXGEARXx
10-14-2006 1:13 PM


xXGEARXx writes:
That makes zero sense. He can SEE without LOOKING. Then what word would you use? Peer?, View?, Feel?, Observe?, Peek-a-Boo?, Gaze?, ???
Those are all human words used to describe human experiences. How can you expect them to express the experiences of an omnipotent being?
What does it mean to "see"? Is seeing active or passive?
Does an omnipotent being need eyes to see? Does it need to face in the direction of what it sees? How far can it see? Can it see through things?
Can an "omnipotent" being prevent itself from seeing?
If yes, then it isn't omniscient. If no, then it isn't omnipotent.
I don't fully grasp the concept to begin with. Do you?
The problem is that neither "omniscience" nor "omnipotence" is a very useful concept. We can't "fully grasp" them - which is why the human descriptions of those concepts are contractory.

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ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 87 of 354 (358598)
10-24-2006 5:35 PM
Reply to: Message 86 by xXGEARXx
10-24-2006 1:23 PM


Re: explain further please....
xXGEARXx writes:
How could one describe something that has yet to be understood in the first place?
In terms that one does understand.
The Indians described the steamboat as a "fire canoe" - a combination of two concepts that they understood.
The problem with "omni"potence and "omni"science is that we can't logically combine the two. They can't coexist. One destroys the other, just as fire destroys canoe.
I just don't understand how you can say-if this, then that-without really understanding it in the first place.
If we could understand omniscience, we'd be omniscient.

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ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 125 of 354 (361379)
11-04-2006 12:51 AM
Reply to: Message 122 by Christian7
11-04-2006 12:35 AM


Re: few questions
iBibleNano writes:
There is nothing you or I can do to change it (though we have the free will to chose.)
Seriously, do you not see the contradiction there?
How can we have the "free will" to "choose" something that we can't change?

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ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 165 of 354 (362198)
11-06-2006 5:11 PM
Reply to: Message 160 by Christian7
11-06-2006 4:24 PM


Re: the illusion of free will
iBibleNano writes:
I don't think the holy spirit is working on your heart anymore.
If God already knows who is damned, why would the Holy Spirit waste time working in their hearts?
Edited by Ringo, : Fixed quote.
Edited by Ringo, : Fixed spelling.

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ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 179 of 354 (362223)
11-06-2006 7:18 PM
Reply to: Message 175 by Christian7
11-06-2006 7:10 PM


Re: Let's examine that further.
I'll ask again: if God already knows who is damned, what is the role of the Holy Spirit?

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ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 184 of 354 (362229)
11-06-2006 7:31 PM
Reply to: Message 182 by Christian7
11-06-2006 7:24 PM


Re: Let's examine that further.
iBibleNano writes:
The Holy Spirit's job is to draw people to Christ.
But if God already knows who is saved and who is not, there is no "drawing people to Christ". That's one of those decisions that's outside our capabilities, according to you.
How can we decide to accept Christ if God already knows we're not going to? What can the Holy Spirit do to "undo" what God already knows?

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ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 189 of 354 (362237)
11-06-2006 7:46 PM
Reply to: Message 186 by Christian7
11-06-2006 7:35 PM


Re: Let's examine that further.
iBibleNano writes:
If there was no Holy Spirit, then what God knows would change, because there would be no initial invitation to accept Christ, therefore no acceptance of Christ.
That makes no sense whatsoever. God already knows who is going to accept and who is not. So why would the Holy Spirit bother "inviting" somebody who is never going to accept?
I know I'm never going to walk on the moon. Why would I buy a space suit?

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ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 194 of 354 (362242)
11-06-2006 8:02 PM
Reply to: Message 191 by Christian7
11-06-2006 7:53 PM


Re: Let's examine that further.
iBibleNano writes:
He does it to demonstrate his awesome power to us, and his awesome mercey.
The Holy Spirit invites people to accept Christ even though God knows they never will. How does that demonstrate anything, let alone God's power?
If God wanted to demonstrate His power, why wouldn't He save everybody, whether they accept Him or not? If He wanted to demonstrate His mercy, why wouldn't He save everybody, whether they accept Him or not?

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Replies to this message:
 Message 195 by Christian7, posted 11-06-2006 8:07 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 199 of 354 (362248)
11-06-2006 8:18 PM
Reply to: Message 195 by Christian7
11-06-2006 8:07 PM


iBibleNano writes:
So at anytime you could freely chose to accept him.
How do you know I "can"? Only God knows if I will.
Because part of God demonstrating who he is is saying, "You were wrong when you said I didn't exist.....
Whom is God demonstrating to? Us? (Who else is there?)
If so, He has to demonstrate in a way that makes sense to us. Frying people for eternity doesn't demonstrate "mercy" to us. It demonstrates cruelty, capriciousness....
Your concept of omniscience doesn't paint a very nice picture of God.

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ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 203 of 354 (362253)
11-06-2006 8:34 PM
Reply to: Message 200 by Christian7
11-06-2006 8:21 PM


iBibleNano writes:
Athiests cannot disceren can from will.
How did we get to "atheists"?
It could be said about a person that they won't do their homework, but that doesn't mean they can't.
Then my question would be: If the teacher knew that the homework wouldn't be done, why would he assign it? To demonstrate his power to assign homework? To demonstrate his "mercy" by punishing those who don't do it?
God does things just to show off.
You make Him seem more and more petty.

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ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 270 of 354 (689999)
02-07-2013 12:30 PM
Reply to: Message 265 by AdeyemiBanjo
02-05-2013 12:34 PM


Re: The "omnipotence and omniscience are mutually exclusive" argument is weak!
AdeyemiBanjo writes:
God is omnipotent, but this does not mean that He will act at variance with His nature; for example, God CANNOT lie (because it is against His nature - i.e. a self-imposed limit - Titus 1:2) but this does not mean He is not omnipotent
You seem to be saying that God CAN lie but chooses not to.
A God that chooses not to use certain powers isn't really omnipotent. Only the actual use of omni powers counts, not just the potential to use them.

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ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 286 of 354 (690062)
02-08-2013 11:31 AM
Reply to: Message 271 by Theodoric
02-07-2013 12:34 PM


Re: The "omnipotence and omniscience are mutually exclusive" argument is weak!
Theodoric writes:
I can turn any metal into gold, I just choose not to.
I could make an absolutely irrefutable rebuttal to your post but I don't wanna.
As I mentioned earlier in the thread, that's the Bart Simpson Defense. You can make any wild-ass claim you want as long as you add the disclaimer that you choose not to do it.
The reason that a claim of omnipotence has to be held to high standards is because it's an absolute claim. Omni means omni, not sorta omni.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 271 by Theodoric, posted 02-07-2013 12:34 PM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 288 by Theodoric, posted 02-08-2013 1:54 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 287 of 354 (690063)
02-08-2013 11:37 AM
Reply to: Message 279 by Phat
02-07-2013 5:27 PM


Re: The "omnipotence and omniscience are mutually exclusive" argument is weak!
Phat writes:
Note though that it is not God that is lying. It is His creation.
God doesn't lie but He creates liars? I'm underwhelmed by the distinction.
If I write a computer program that writes bad cheques, that's okay then?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 279 by Phat, posted 02-07-2013 5:27 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
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ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 292 of 354 (690120)
02-09-2013 11:22 AM
Reply to: Message 288 by Theodoric
02-08-2013 1:54 PM


Re: The "omnipotence and omniscience are mutually exclusive" argument is weak!
Theodoric writes:
Did you see the smiley face on my post?
I never look up there. I'm not used to all the fancy features on this forum. I'm new here. It was like that when I got here.

This message is a reply to:
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