Morality without god

Who do you think you are that you can speak for other people like this? Your arrogance is astounding and you should be ashamed of yourself.How can you possibly have any idea whatsoever about what kind of relationship the Pope, or any other person has for that matter, has with God?You've got yourself so high up on a pedestal its no wonder that you can't get anything right. You're completely full of yourself, I doubt if you've even left any room for God. That is an incredibly stupid thing to say. There is no Catholic doctrine that has anything to do with that at all. If fact, here's something that says the exact opposite:From Encyclical Letter of Pope John Paul II on the Holy Spirit (May 18, 1986):

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And at the same time that same man in his own humanity receives as a gift a special "image and likeness" to God. This means not only rationality and freedom as constitutive properties of human nature, but also, from the very beginning, the capacity of having a personal relationship with God, as "I" and "you", and therefore the capacity of having a covenant, which will take place in God's salvific communication with man. Against the background of the "image and likeness" of God, "the gift of the Spirit" ultimately means a call to friendship, in which the transcendent "depths of God" become in some way opened to participation on the part of man. The Second Vatican Council teaches: "The invisible God out of the abundance of his love speaks to men as friends and lives among them, so that he may invite and take them into fellowship with himself".

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So, are you capable of admitting that you were wrong? And this is exactly what I expected you to say."Catholics are not Christians unless my point needs them to be Christian."You'll say whatever you have to say in order to try to save face. You have no honesty.

As a youth leader at a Catholic Church for 9 years, I can tell you that you heard absolutely incorrectly on this point. You can pray directly to Jesus or directly to God in the Catholic Church. You are not told, taught, or expected to pray directly to Mary, ever. You are told you can ask Mary to intercede to God on your behalf, but you are not expecting Mary to fulfill your prayers, except to ask God to fulfill your prayers.If you feel comfortable talking to the "Father" figure, then by all means pray directly to God. If you feel comfortable with the "brother" character, then by all means pray directly to Jesus. If, as most Catholics, you are wracked by guilt and feel unworthy to speak directly to either God or Jesus, then you can ask the "Mother" character to intercede on your behalf, but you ARE NOT praying TO her, rather THROUGH her. Personally, when I prayed as a Catholic, I always skipped Mary and Jesus and prayed directly to God. And on this point, weren't you just trying to claim in another thread that the Pope is known as something that related to "God's Representative on Earth" (Can't remember the Latin Phrase you used....but it seems to be a connection with "God" of some sort.And for proof on the Mary point, look to the words of the Hail Mary:
Hail Mary, Full of Grace
The Lord is with you.
Blessed are you amongst women,
and Blest is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus.
Holy Mary, Mother of God
PRAY FOR US SINNERS, now and at the hour of our death. Amen.All you are asking for is intercession, can't you see that?

Good grief, Tempe, ASKING FOR ANYTHING of someone who is in heaven is PRAYER, can't you see that? She can't hear you ask for intercession, and our Intercessor is CHRIST according to the scriptures so the whole thing is blasphemous that one would EVER think it right or possible to talk to Mary -- about anythng -- or anyone in heaven but God.As for the Pope's having a relationship with God the impression one gets from many statements made by many Popes, including this new one, is that they pray to MARY.And the Pope puts himself in the position of God, which is rather a different thing from having a relationship with God, that's what the Latin phrase means, IN THE PLACE OF... the SON OF GOD in that case.As I understand it also, American Catholicism is rather a different thing from Catholicism in the rest of the world, American Catholics being taught in ways that make them seem more like Protestants for some reason, perhaps so Protestants will feel more comfortable with them or something like that, and they often read the Bible and go to Protestant Bible studies too, but that's really a recent thing and an American thing.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

I realized how off topic we are with this discussion, so we should probably end it here, at least in this thread. If you would like to further discuss how praying through Mary is not praying to Mary, please start a thread.As for the purpose of this thread, it seems to have gone off the rails completely recently. Morality doesn't require a God or god or gods. Rather, it requires an agreement between segments of society that this is the proper behavior. This is why we see such a difference in morals throughout the world. Is it moral to treat women as second class citizens, deny them education, beat them, and make them basically property?In America, while it does happen from time to time, it is not considered a moral behavior because the consensus of the citizenry is that women should have all the same rights and freedoms as men.In the Middle East, it would be moral to treat women in that fashion because it is the consensus of the citizenry that this is how women are supposed to be treated.If morality was stemming from an all-powerful being, then we should see more coinciding between the moral precepts in many different lands. The problem is that there is no all-powerful being, at least not the same one in any region, so these differences spring up based on culture and beliefs. Hell, we can't even always agree on the concept of Thou shalt not kill, even just in this country. Sometimes it is justified, sometimes it is not. How does the arbitrariness of these moral values speak to you of a divine inspiration?Another point is that the books that tell of these morals and how to live contain different morals that do not line up with one another. The Bible contradicts itself on the moral questions that are asked constantly. The Koran has a precept not to kill, but also makes exceptions for unbelievers. How....on....Earth....could that happen unless these moral ideals were simply written as a code of conduct for a group of people, rather than a divinely inspired gift from a God/god/gods?

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This means not only rationality and freedom as constitutive properties of human nature, but also, from the very beginning, the capacity of having a personal relationship with God, as "I" and "you", and therefore the capacity of having a covenant, which will take place in God's salvific communication with man.

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What's wrong with you?

Faith, you have so many misinterpretations of so many different subjects. Have you ever considered doing some self-reflection rather than your kneejerk replies to people who are just trying to educate you?I mean, it takes a lot of hubris to tell an Irishman about Irish history, or tell Catholics (both practicing & recovering) who they are actually praying to?As in other threads about evolution, you are here telling the experts about things they've lived every day. Then you'll get frustrated & flounce away in a huff, wondering why no one ever listens to you.Maybe you should try something different this time.

but seriously

Seems logical at first until you think, wait a minute, that built in empathy (aka conscience) thing I mentioned previously would kick into overdrive. So its not at all the same thing. If our experience with someone, in everyway has been one of love, tempered with righteous justice, then when we read or hear of something that seems not to sit right with that experience, we can logically give them the benefit of the doubt until we learn the full context. Such is not the case for someone who is a "being of ultimate evil."

Good answer Faith. I like that

As a recovering Catholic I see nothing wrong with that comment.Edited by Theodoric, : No reason given.

-God gives humans time to discover they are completely incapable of keeping His rules.
-God sends His only begotten Son to keep them for us
-Then His Son atones for our inabilities on the cross
-We accept that gift as our own.
-Those rules then are suddenly written on the tablets of our heart and we have a zeal to try and keep the rules out of gratitude only.

You're just preaching to each other.It's how belief systems work, you need to reinforce each other with rhetoric because you don't have any facts or evidence to fall back on for real support.It's one of those often repeated truisms that religion is the only mental delusion that is considered nomal, simply because so many people suffer from it.

...you do realize that this is exactly why we know that the Biblical god is evil, right? Because we feel empathy for his countless victims, from the Flood to the Egyptian plagues to those sent to Hell.

This conversation has gone nuts in the last few hours - I'd like to repeat my question to the religious among us;If God decreed an Evil Act Moral would that Act then become Moral?Please don't tell me god wouldn't, from where I'm sitting I think he has several times - but either way I am merely asking a question which I would like an answer too - not asking for qualification of the terms of the questionTa