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Author Topic:   Wasteful Intelligent Design
Dr Adequate
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Posts: 15936
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 3.4


(1)
Message 31 of 43 (694054)
03-21-2013 2:11 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by Bolder-dash
03-21-2013 1:35 PM


No one has attempted to say WHY the law exist?

But the question I asked was WHY DO LAWS EXIST!!

No it wasn't. It may have been what you meant to ask, but you didn't.

Since you ask, the (fundamental) laws exist because there are only a finite number of varieties of (common, at least) fundamental particles. Higher-order laws again are the result of limited variety in nature.

Saying that "laws of nature exist" is really just a (misleading) reification of this fact.

But I'm keen to learn your explanation. Does it involve magic?

Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by Bolder-dash, posted 03-21-2013 1:35 PM Bolder-dash has not yet responded

  
Admin
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Message 32 of 43 (694055)
03-21-2013 2:12 PM


Moderator Clarification
Bolder-dash asks:

No one has attempted to say WHY the law exist?

Bolder-dash is correct that no one has tried to explain why scientific laws exist in our universe, but that could be because that wasn't what he originally asked in Message 22:

Bolder-dash in Message 22 writes:

What's hard to understand is why you think there are laws.

This can, of course, be interpreted in two ways. Is Bolder-dash asking the "why" of the belief that our universe has laws? That's what I think people thought he was asking.

But he could instead have been asking the "why" of our universe having laws, and I think that's what he was actually getting at in this updated phrasing:

Bolder-dash writes:

But the question I asked was WHY DO LAWS EXIST!! What's more is I even wrote it in language I assumed (my bad) even Dr. A could understand, when I wrote, why do you think there are laws? As opposed to no laws see? Get it?

Please, no replies to this message.


--Percy
EvC Forum Director

    
Taq
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Posts: 6644
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 4.1


(1)
Message 33 of 43 (694059)
03-21-2013 2:40 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by Bolder-dash
03-21-2013 1:35 PM


Re: The Dr. A theory of denial
No one has attempted to say WHY the law exist?

How can they not exist? Matter and energy has to interact somehow.

And you guys want to find the deeper meaning in life? With these comprehension skills? Good luck.

The point being made is that there is not a deeper meaning in life that is intrinsic to the universe.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by Bolder-dash, posted 03-21-2013 1:35 PM Bolder-dash has not yet responded

  
GrimSqueaker
Member (Idle past 1133 days)
Posts: 137
From: Ireland
Joined: 03-15-2013


Message 34 of 43 (694066)
03-21-2013 3:15 PM


I can't remember what the name for the philosophical principle is but there is a position that simply states,

"since we can ask the question "why do we exist" we can assume that there are the correct properties in place to allow us to exist"

If someone can tell me what that's called and fix my wording that'd be super, but the same can be said of the laws of physics

"why are there scientific laws? Because if there weren't you wouldn't be able to ask the question"

(I'm really butchering this sentiment so I am sorry for that)


Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by Taq, posted 03-21-2013 3:27 PM GrimSqueaker has responded

    
Taq
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Posts: 6644
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 4.1


Message 35 of 43 (694071)
03-21-2013 3:27 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by GrimSqueaker
03-21-2013 3:15 PM


I can't remember what the name for the philosophical principle is but there is a position that simply states,
"since we can ask the question "why do we exist" we can assume that there are the correct properties in place to allow us to exist"

Sounds like the weak anthropic principle.

"Critics of the SAP argue in favor of a weak anthropic principle (WAP) similar to the one defined by Brandon Carter, which states that the universe's ostensible fine tuning is the result of selection bias: i.e., only in a universe capable of eventually supporting life will there be living beings capable of observing any such fine tuning, while a universe less compatible with life will go unbeheld."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthropic_principle


This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by GrimSqueaker, posted 03-21-2013 3:15 PM GrimSqueaker has responded

Replies to this message:
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GrimSqueaker
Member (Idle past 1133 days)
Posts: 137
From: Ireland
Joined: 03-15-2013


Message 36 of 43 (694078)
03-21-2013 4:15 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by Taq
03-21-2013 3:27 PM


Thank u sir that is exactly what I was grasping at
This message is a reply to:
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NoNukes
Member
Posts: 9657
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 37 of 43 (694103)
03-21-2013 10:53 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by Bolder-dash
03-21-2013 1:35 PM


Re: The Dr. A theory of denial
Percy is wrong, and so are you. There is no way to interpret the following as asking why laws exist:

What's hard to understand is why you think there are laws.

My attempt at wording your question:

"What's hard to understand is your (GrimSqueaker) answer to why laws exist."

But then why is it inevitable that GrimSqueaker even needs an answer to such a question?

And you guys want to find the deeper meaning in life? With these comprehension skills? Good luck.

I'm guessing that most atheists are not looking for the deeper meaning of life. I'm no atheist, but I don't give that question much thought either.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ‘That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.’ Galileo Galilei 1615.

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
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Bolder-dash
Member (Idle past 1074 days)
Posts: 983
From: China
Joined: 11-14-2009


Message 38 of 43 (694328)
03-23-2013 10:48 PM


So this is the powerful intellect of EvC forum:

I just get done having having an exchange with grimsqueaker talking about the existence of laws and order, I asked him if he thought that physical laws are the result of purposelessness. he says he can't see anything that can't be explained by laws and chance.

So I say to him, "Yes, I get that you can't see anything that can't be explained by laws and chance." BUT "What's hard to understand is why you think there are laws." In other words, YES, there are laws, But WHY???

And all of you deep thinking geniuses claim I didn't ask him why laws exist.

(And Dr. A says it has to do with science. And Grim gives him a big thumbs up, haha)

"Gee, how could he possibly have been asking why do laws exist? I just can't get it. "

What a menagerie of dunces.


Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by Dr Adequate, posted 03-24-2013 2:27 AM Bolder-dash has responded

  
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 15936
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 39 of 43 (694336)
03-24-2013 2:27 AM
Reply to: Message 38 by Bolder-dash
03-23-2013 10:48 PM


And all of you deep thinking geniuses claim I didn't ask him why laws exist.

You didn't. You asked him why he thinks laws exist.

It's not our fault that you can't express yourself clearly.

Now that you've had a second run at it, you've got an answer to what you apparently meant to ask. You could maybe stop whining now?

Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by Bolder-dash, posted 03-23-2013 10:48 PM Bolder-dash has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by Bolder-dash, posted 03-25-2013 8:42 AM Dr Adequate has responded

  
GrimSqueaker
Member (Idle past 1133 days)
Posts: 137
From: Ireland
Joined: 03-15-2013


Message 40 of 43 (694351)
03-24-2013 7:04 AM


The laws and general goldielocks nature of our reality is because the only observable realities are the ones which fit within the general scientific goldielocksnessness (oh yeah that's a word)

Life, the universe and everything in it is violent, chaotic and utterly beautiful - to reduce it all to the whim of some alien enity is illogical and kinda depressing - truly the only answer is 42


    
Bolder-dash
Member (Idle past 1074 days)
Posts: 983
From: China
Joined: 11-14-2009


Message 41 of 43 (694494)
03-25-2013 8:42 AM
Reply to: Message 39 by Dr Adequate
03-24-2013 2:27 AM


Oh waa, waa, waa. Geez, what a great big baby you are. Is that all you do is whine? "Oh, how could I understand what you wrote, it was so unclear. You asked why does he think there are laws. I can't be expected to understand that, its not fair..I want my mommy, waaaa!"

How does you wife put up with you incessant crying? Does she have to buy you a big pair of adult diapers?

But I do agree, you can't be blamed if you can't understand simple English, you are just a series of chemical blunders afterall; purposeless, incapable of defining a standard for morality which coincides with a random meaningless existence, and only as smart as the carbon-filled mutations which flutter aimlessly through your skin filled bag of accidents. There hardly exists in there room for intrepid thought. Its really not your fault you need everything explained to you 3 times, with capitals, and minimal syllables. Fortunately you won't be insulted because you won't understand what I have written.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by Dr Adequate, posted 03-24-2013 2:27 AM Dr Adequate has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by AdminNosy, posted 03-25-2013 8:45 AM Bolder-dash has not yet responded
 Message 43 by Dr Adequate, posted 03-25-2013 3:43 PM Bolder-dash has not yet responded

  
AdminNosy
Administrator
Posts: 4753
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Joined: 11-11-2003


Message 42 of 43 (694496)
03-25-2013 8:45 AM
Reply to: Message 41 by Bolder-dash
03-25-2013 8:42 AM


Unneccessary
This is not helpful. Please desist.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by Bolder-dash, posted 03-25-2013 8:42 AM Bolder-dash has not yet responded

  
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 15936
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 43 of 43 (694560)
03-25-2013 3:43 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by Bolder-dash
03-25-2013 8:42 AM


Oh waa, waa, waa. Geez, what a great big baby you are. Is that all you do is whine? "Oh, how could I understand what you wrote, it was so unclear. You asked why does he think there are laws. I can't be expected to understand that, its not fair..I want my mommy, waaaa!"

How does you wife put up with you incessant crying? Does she have to buy you a big pair of adult diapers?

But I do agree, you can't be blamed if you can't understand simple English, you are just a series of chemical blunders afterall; purposeless, incapable of defining a standard for morality which coincides with a random meaningless existence, and only as smart as the carbon-filled mutations which flutter aimlessly through your skin filled bag of accidents. There hardly exists in there room for intrepid thought. Its really not your fault you need everything explained to you 3 times, with capitals, and minimal syllables. Fortunately you won't be insulted because you won't understand what I have written.

And then you guys wonder why you can't get published in the mainstream scientific journals.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by Bolder-dash, posted 03-25-2013 8:42 AM Bolder-dash has not yet responded

  
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