Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
2 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,821 Year: 3,078/9,624 Month: 923/1,588 Week: 106/223 Day: 4/13 Hour: 0/2


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Can science say anything about a Creator God?
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 15 of 506 (694621)
03-26-2013 10:17 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by designtheorist
03-25-2013 10:39 PM


I suppose this issue is central to your claims of censorship.
Ross reports that new definitions of science have been published which specifically exclude any investigation into the why questions humans often ask.
This is new? Haven't people been complaining about this 'limitation' since forever?
The definition of science as investigating only natural causes is not new. It would not be the definition used by the Catholic Church in the 19th century, or by those who think that science is just philosophy, but the central position of empirical evidence in the scientific method is over two thousand years old.
I agree with Ross and Dawkins on this point. Science can say something significant about the existence of God. And the evidence should be followed wherever it leads.
Why not add an instant spike to your credibility and cite some empirical evidence that points to the existence of God? I can promise that if you are successful at this, then you will win me over as a convert. I've contemplated this issue often, and my current belief is that Ross is dead wrong.
Ross and I disagree with the view that science is incapable of detecting God and his role as creator. I know of two scientists who came to believe in God because of the Big Bang.
You've used this example before. I don't doubt that what you say is true, but the anecdote is not evicence that the scientific method is capable of detecting God.
Being convinced that God started the Big Bang is not the same as identifying God via the scientific method. It is a central tenant of ID that God and his handiwork is identifiable through 'scientific' means for some definition of scientific. Small wonder that ID proponents seek to expand the definition of science. And there is little doubt that they do exactly that.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ‘That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.’ Galileo Galilei 1615.
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by designtheorist, posted 03-25-2013 10:39 PM designtheorist has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 17 of 506 (694625)
03-26-2013 10:32 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by designtheorist
03-26-2013 10:23 AM


Re: Not so Clear?
It meant that the Big Bang was a one-time event. A creation event. That proved to Sandage that God existed but he did not know which God.
I think this anecdote proves something other than what you suggest. The reasoning you quote for concluding that God exists is fairly porous.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ‘That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.’ Galileo Galilei 1615.
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by designtheorist, posted 03-26-2013 10:23 AM designtheorist has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 19 of 506 (694628)
03-26-2013 11:00 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by designtheorist
03-26-2013 9:44 AM


Re: Allan Sandage's discovery
One-time events are known as miracles. That is all Sandage is saying here.
He did not say this, because he is not an idiot. How about your own existence? Does science consider that one time event a miracle?

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ‘That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.’ Galileo Galilei 1615.
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by designtheorist, posted 03-26-2013 9:44 AM designtheorist has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 57 of 506 (694677)
03-26-2013 8:25 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by Taq
03-26-2013 5:02 PM


Re: Hi Taq
Why don't you just present the evidence? Another post from a theist with zero evidence for a deity.
These threads won't be providing any such evidence. Instead you will be facing attempts to show using Ross's heuristics that RtB is more likely valid than empiricism based theories. But do not expect any direct attempts to validate non-science. If designtheorist could pull that off, he would not be bothering with this stuff.
We know that Christians accept Christianity by faith because such faith is the pathway Jesus offers. I accept Christianity by faith. But I also know that Hebrews 11:1 is poetic language. Faith is not empirical.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ‘That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.’ Galileo Galilei 1615.
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by Taq, posted 03-26-2013 5:02 PM Taq has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(2)
Message 87 of 506 (694739)
03-27-2013 3:28 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by designtheorist
03-27-2013 1:56 PM


Re: Hello Taq
You may also say, if the fine-tuning involves 20 parameters and the universe falls apart if the value of those parameters is off by 1%, then that is extreme fine-tuning and the universe has to be the result of an intelligent Creator.
Do you know whether those 20 parameters are independent? Are you or anyone else able to vary one of them independently and to then show us that the other 19 remain constant? What if only all of the parameters are a function of a single master parameter? What if that master parameter cannot be changed?
Because if you cannot provide a correct answer to the above questions, then the actual number of parameters is of no probative value.
Can a universe even exist with a change in a single one of those parameters by 1%, given our inability to know if the parameters are truly independent? If you cannot demonstrate an answer this question, fine tuning is no argument at all.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ‘That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.’ Galileo Galilei 1615.
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by designtheorist, posted 03-27-2013 1:56 PM designtheorist has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 90 of 506 (694748)
03-27-2013 5:51 PM
Reply to: Message 88 by Dr Adequate
03-27-2013 3:37 PM


Re: Questions Waiting to be Answered
Note in particular when Ventner says:
Throw me a bone Dr. A. How about a pointer to where in the video I should start listening?

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ‘That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.’ Galileo Galilei 1615.
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by Dr Adequate, posted 03-27-2013 3:37 PM Dr Adequate has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 94 by NosyNed, posted 03-27-2013 10:36 PM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 97 of 506 (694757)
03-27-2013 11:24 PM
Reply to: Message 91 by Taq
03-27-2013 7:17 PM


Re: Hello Taq
I am interested in YOUR reasoning. I am interested in YOU supporting YOUR claims. Please start presenting evidence that supports your claims.
Stop begging this fraud. He's got nothing.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ‘That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.’ Galileo Galilei 1615.
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by Taq, posted 03-27-2013 7:17 PM Taq has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(2)
Message 106 of 506 (694768)
03-28-2013 8:46 AM
Reply to: Message 93 by designtheorist
03-27-2013 8:41 PM


Re: Hi Blue Jay
Sorry, that doesn't work. We have no natural agencies to explain the Big Bang. A couple of hypotheses have been put forward, including a vacuum fluctuation and colliding branes. But these don't work. Again, we will get to the evidence a little later
Well that did not take long, and was essentially cost free. You simply declared a naturally created universe impossible. This scientific method stuff sure is cheap when done right.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ‘That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.’ Galileo Galilei 1615.
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by designtheorist, posted 03-27-2013 8:41 PM designtheorist has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 109 by Just being real, posted 03-28-2013 10:22 AM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 110 of 506 (694775)
03-28-2013 11:11 AM
Reply to: Message 93 by designtheorist
03-27-2013 8:41 PM


History repeats itself. Designtheorists mouth (or pen) writes check...
Again, we will get to the evidence a little later.
That his boom-boom is unlikely to cash...
From Message 240
I think it is time to put this thread on hiatus. We are approaching the 300 comment mark which will trigger the summation and Krauss's book is not even out yet. I would like to save some comments for discussing his evidence if he presents any.
That's right. The last time designtheorist promised evidence, he failed to deliver it after a year and half. Percy even expanded the thread limit to 400 in order to accomodate the evidence. But designtheorist provided doodly squat.
Here he promises during the Christmas holidays to review a Feynman paper after the libraries reopened. This of course did not happen.
From Message 244
designtheorist writes:
I have not had a chance to read the Feynman paper yet, but you have to realize that Feynman wrote decades before the discovery of dark energy and the accelerating universe. I am interested to see Feynman's approach, but his mass of the universe may not have calculated dark matter either. There is a good chance Bradford's recreation is more reliable than the earlier work by Feynman.
Now, you can continue to discuss this but I plan to take a break for a while until the libraries open again and the book is available.
Of course Krauss' book came out a few days later designtheorists post was made. I imagine that whatever library designtheorist was referring to has opened after the 2011 holidays, closed again for the 2012 holidays, and then reopened again at the start of this year. Yet no follow up by designtheorist.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ‘That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.’ Galileo Galilei 1615.
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by designtheorist, posted 03-27-2013 8:41 PM designtheorist has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 111 of 506 (694777)
03-28-2013 11:15 AM
Reply to: Message 109 by Just being real
03-28-2013 10:22 AM


So are you saying here that you believe that a naturally created universe is possible based on the casimir experiments?
Did I say any such thing? Seriously JBR, you are completely out of your depth here. You didn't even address the two possibilities that designtheorist did include before writing your woof ticket.
What I commented on is the rejection of creation of the universe by natural causes without a single argument of any kind.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ‘That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.’ Galileo Galilei 1615.
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 109 by Just being real, posted 03-28-2013 10:22 AM Just being real has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 124 by Just being real, posted 03-28-2013 6:02 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 115 of 506 (694783)
03-28-2013 12:22 PM
Reply to: Message 114 by designtheorist
03-28-2013 12:11 PM


Re: ABE
I find your post confusing. You seem to be saying the Penrose's efforts are wrong. Exactly what arguments that you make are advanced by Penrose being wrong?

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ‘That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.’ Galileo Galilei 1615.
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 114 by designtheorist, posted 03-28-2013 12:11 PM designtheorist has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 125 of 506 (694797)
03-28-2013 10:07 PM
Reply to: Message 124 by Just being real
03-28-2013 6:02 PM


I did address the most popular one of quantum fluctuations
You addressed quantum fluctuations by asking me the inane question of where the metal plates for generating the fluctuations for the Big Bang would come from.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ‘That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.’ Galileo Galilei 1615.
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 124 by Just being real, posted 03-28-2013 6:02 PM Just being real has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 126 by Just being real, posted 03-29-2013 2:05 AM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 132 of 506 (694815)
03-29-2013 9:21 AM
Reply to: Message 130 by Just being real
03-29-2013 9:04 AM


Lol. Oh, oh... I got this... are you read?
You received several polite messages correcting you on your error regarding the casimir effect. What do you think a response of 'yes they do' accomplishes at this point? I know you want to get back at Dr. Adequate, but at the cost of looking not unlike a buffoon?
If you aren't prepared to discuss how physics works at energy densities and temperatures so high that all physics as we understand the subject are inapplicable, then blathering about in a positive, certain, fashion about what is impossible, plank lengths, and such is, er unjustifiable. The fact that you continue to do so suggests that you are out of your depth.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ‘That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.’ Galileo Galilei 1615.
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 130 by Just being real, posted 03-29-2013 9:04 AM Just being real has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 134 by Just being real, posted 03-29-2013 9:25 AM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 135 of 506 (694819)
03-29-2013 10:09 AM
Reply to: Message 133 by Just being real
03-29-2013 9:22 AM


Because the casimir effect is the only one I've heard of.
As has been pointed out several times, the Casimir experiment is a demonstration that zero point energy is real. It is not an experiment in which quantum fluctuations are created, but is instead an experiment in which the fluctuations associated with a small volume of space are made to generate a measurable effect.
And your equivocation on the term "believed" is .... below the standard for intellectual honesty for even a blog debate. 'Believed' in Percy's statement means predicted by the theory of quantum electrodynamics, said theory being well verified by experiment, and not "accepted through faith." The Casimir effect itself is further confirmation.
I'll read any response you may have, but I'm otherwise done with this buffoonery.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ‘That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.’ Galileo Galilei 1615.
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 133 by Just being real, posted 03-29-2013 9:22 AM Just being real has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 144 of 506 (694916)
03-30-2013 9:05 PM
Reply to: Message 143 by designtheorist
03-30-2013 8:17 PM


If a quantum fluctuation did produce both energy and mass, it would be high entropy like a black hole.
Evidence please?

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ‘That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.’ Galileo Galilei 1615.
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 143 by designtheorist, posted 03-30-2013 8:17 PM designtheorist has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024