Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 109 (8803 total)
Current session began: 
Page Loaded: 11-21-2017 8:32 AM
387 online now:
Aussie, jar, PaulK, Percy (Admin), Phat (AdminPhat), Pressie, ProtoTypical, Tangle (8 members, 379 visitors)
Chatting now:  Chat room empty
Newest Member: jaufre
Upcoming Birthdays: DC85
Post Volume:
Total: 822,751 Year: 27,357/21,208 Month: 1,270/1,714 Week: 113/365 Day: 17/52 Hour: 3/5

Announcements: Reporting debate problems OR discussing moderation actions/inactions


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Prev1
...
56789
10
Author Topic:   Testing Theories of Origins
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 5772
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 8.5


Message 136 of 143 (694759)
03-27-2013 11:41 PM
Reply to: Message 129 by New Cat's Eye
03-27-2013 10:53 AM


Re: Same stuff different day
The Bible (including Genesis 1–11) is the error-free word of God.

Which one?

Oh I forgot. The one they follow of course.


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 129 by New Cat's Eye, posted 03-27-2013 10:53 AM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 137 by New Cat's Eye, posted 03-28-2013 10:46 AM Theodoric has responded

    
New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11813
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 137 of 143 (694773)
03-28-2013 10:46 AM
Reply to: Message 136 by Theodoric
03-27-2013 11:41 PM


Re: Same stuff different day
The Bible (including Genesis 1–11) is the error-free word of God.

Which one?

Do any of them exclude Genesis? And if not, then why would it matter regarding a theory of origins?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 136 by Theodoric, posted 03-27-2013 11:41 PM Theodoric has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 138 by Theodoric, posted 03-28-2013 10:51 AM New Cat's Eye has responded

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 5772
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 8.5


Message 138 of 143 (694774)
03-28-2013 10:51 AM
Reply to: Message 137 by New Cat's Eye
03-28-2013 10:46 AM


Re: Same stuff different day
Since different ones use different words, then they can not all be the "error-free word of God".

This is not limited to a theory of origins but to anything in which people claim their bible is the "error-free word of God".

I am amazed you have any issue with what I posted.


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 137 by New Cat's Eye, posted 03-28-2013 10:46 AM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 139 by New Cat's Eye, posted 03-28-2013 11:12 AM Theodoric has responded

    
New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11813
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 139 of 143 (694776)
03-28-2013 11:12 AM
Reply to: Message 138 by Theodoric
03-28-2013 10:51 AM


Re: Same stuff different day
Since different ones use different words, then they can not all be the "error-free word of God".

How different do the versions make the wording in Genesis? And how much does it impact the perceived errors?

This is not limited to a theory of origins but to anything in which people claim their bible is the "error-free word of God".

The big difference between the canons is the books they include, rather than the translation differences within the books. And those otherthings that don't have to do with origins are pretty irrelevant to this thread.

I am amazed you have any issue with what I posted.

What, an unoriginal and unimportant irrelevant quibble that doesn't add to the discussion? I always have issues with those.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 138 by Theodoric, posted 03-28-2013 10:51 AM Theodoric has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 140 by Theodoric, posted 03-28-2013 11:40 AM New Cat's Eye has responded

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 5772
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 8.5


Message 140 of 143 (694778)
03-28-2013 11:40 AM
Reply to: Message 139 by New Cat's Eye
03-28-2013 11:12 AM


Re: Same stuff different day
The big difference between the canons is the books they include, rather than the translation differences within the books.

In whose opinion? Yours?

quote:

1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.

3 And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. 4 God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light “day,” and the darkness he called “night.” And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day.

6 And God said, “Let there be a vault between the waters to separate water from water.” 7 So God made the vault and separated the water under the vault from the water above it. And it was so. 8 God called the vault “sky.” And there was evening, and there was morning—the second day.

9 And God said, “Let the water under the sky be gathered to one place, and let dry ground appear.” And it was so. 10 God called the dry ground “land,” and the gathered waters he called “seas.” And God saw that it was good.

11 Then God said, “Let the land produce vegetation: seed-bearing plants and trees on the land that bear fruit with seed in it, according to their various kinds.” And it was so. 12 The land produced vegetation: plants bearing seed according to their kinds and trees bearing fruit with seed in it according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good. 13 And there was evening, and there was morning—the third day.

14 And God said, “Let there be lights in the vault of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark sacred times, and days and years, 15 and let them be lights in the vault of the sky to give light on the earth.” And it was so. 16 God made two great lights—the greater light to govern the day and the lesser light to govern the night. He also made the stars. 17 God set them in the vault of the sky to give light on the earth, 18 to govern the day and the night, and to separate light from darkness. And God saw that it was good. 19 And there was evening, and there was morning—the fourth day.

20 And God said, “Let the water teem with living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the vault of the sky.” 21 So God created the great creatures of the sea and every living thing with which the water teems and that moves about in it, according to their kinds, and every winged bird according to its kind. And God saw that it was good. 22 God blessed them and said, “Be fruitful and increase in number and fill the water in the seas, and let the birds increase on the earth.” 23 And there was evening, and there was morning—the fifth day.

24 And God said, “Let the land produce living creatures according to their kinds: the livestock, the creatures that move along the ground, and the wild animals, each according to its kind.” And it was so. 25 God made the wild animals according to their kinds, the livestock according to their kinds, and all the creatures that move along the ground according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good.

26 Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals,[a] and over all the creatures that move along the ground.”

27 So God created mankind in his own image,
in the image of God he created them;
male and female he created them.

28 God blessed them and said to them, “Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky and over every living creature that moves on the ground.”

29 Then God said, “I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food. 30 And to all the beasts of the earth and all the birds in the sky and all the creatures that move along the ground—everything that has the breath of life in it—I give every green plant for food.” And it was so.

31 God saw all that he had made, and it was very good. And there was evening, and there was morning—the sixth day.


quote:

1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.

5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.

7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.

8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.

9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.

10 And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.

11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.

12 And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

13 And the evening and the morning were the third day.

14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:

15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.

16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.

17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,

18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.

19 And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.

20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.

21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

22 And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth.

23 And the evening and the morning were the fifth day.

24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.

25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.

30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.

31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.


quote:
1 In the beginning when God created the heavens and the earth, 2 the earth was a formless void and darkness covered the face of the deep, while a wind from God swept over the face of the waters. 3 Then God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light. 4 And God saw that the light was good; and God separated the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And there was evening and there was morning, the first day.

6 And God said, “Let there be a dome in the midst of the waters, and let it separate the waters from the waters.” 7 So God made the dome and separated the waters that were under the dome from the waters that were above the dome. And it was so. 8 God called the dome Sky. And there was evening and there was morning, the second day.

9 And God said, “Let the waters under the sky be gathered together into one place, and let the dry land appear.” And it was so. 10 God called the dry land Earth, and the waters that were gathered together he called Seas. And God saw that it was good. 11 Then God said, “Let the earth put forth vegetation: plants yielding seed, and fruit trees of every kind on earth that bear fruit with the seed in it.” And it was so. 12 The earth brought forth vegetation: plants yielding seed of every kind, and trees of every kind bearing fruit with the seed in it. And God saw that it was good. 13 And there was evening and there was morning, the third day.

14 And God said, “Let there be lights in the dome of the sky to separate the day from the night; and let them be for signs and for seasons and for days and years, 15 and let them be lights in the dome of the sky to give light upon the earth.” And it was so. 16 God made the two great lights—the greater light to rule the day and the lesser light to rule the night—and the stars. 17 God set them in the dome of the sky to give light upon the earth, 18 to rule over the day and over the night, and to separate the light from the darkness. And God saw that it was good. 19 And there was evening and there was morning, the fourth day.

20 And God said, “Let the waters bring forth swarms of living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the dome of the sky.” 21 So God created the great sea monsters and every living creature that moves, of every kind, with which the waters swarm, and every winged bird of every kind. And God saw that it was good. 22 God blessed them, saying, “Be fruitful and multiply and fill the waters in the seas, and let birds multiply on the earth.” 23 And there was evening and there was morning, the fifth day.

24 And God said, “Let the earth bring forth living creatures of every kind: cattle and creeping things and wild animals of the earth of every kind.” And it was so. 25 God made the wild animals of the earth of every kind, and the cattle of every kind, and everything that creeps upon the ground of every kind. And God saw that it was good.

26 Then God said, “Let us make humankind[c] in our image, according to our likeness; and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the wild animals of the earth,[d] and over every creeping thing that creeps upon the earth.”

27 So God created humankind in his image,
in the image of God he created them;
male and female he created them.

28 God blessed them, and God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth and subdue it; and have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the air and over every living thing that moves upon the earth.” 29 God said, “See, I have given you every plant yielding seed that is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree with seed in its fruit; you shall have them for food. 30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every bird of the air, and to everything that creeps on the earth, everything that has the breath of life, I have given every green plant for food.” And it was so. 31 God saw everything that he had made, and indeed, it was very good. And there was evening and there was morning, the sixth day.


Remember we are discussing a point made by RTB adherents.

quote:
The Bible is the error-free word of God.

You yourself have pointed this out as problem. All three of these cannot be error-free. One can be, or none can be.

And those otherthings that don't have to do with origins are pretty irrelevant to this thread.

The RTB adherents and you have presented this as a topic. Of course it is relevant to the thread. If it was not relevant why did point it out and why would you question it?

What, an unoriginal and unimportant irrelevant quibble that doesn't add to the discussion?

Not at all irrelevant. You yourself have called out the claim that the bible is 'error-free word of God".

In order for this to be true there would have to be one bible. There is not one bible. The bible is not one tome, it is a ragtag collection of ancient writings with multiple canon and translations. Whether you feel so or not translation is important.

Calling into question RTB's assertion that there is one errror-free version of the bible is very relevant in order to discount their claims.

I always have issues with those.

No you have issues with me. At least be honest.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 139 by New Cat's Eye, posted 03-28-2013 11:12 AM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 141 by New Cat's Eye, posted 03-28-2013 12:16 PM Theodoric has responded

    
New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11813
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 141 of 143 (694782)
03-28-2013 12:16 PM
Reply to: Message 140 by Theodoric
03-28-2013 11:40 AM


Re: Same stuff different day
All three of these cannot be error-free. One can be, or none can be.

Which parts, specifically, are mutually exclusive?

The RTB adherents and you have presented this as a topic. Of course it is relevant to the thread. If it was not relevant why did point it out and why would you question it?

Whether or not a Bible canon contains a particular book that is unrelated to origins is irrelevant to a Biblical model on origins.

Not at all irrelevant. You yourself have called out the claim that the bible is 'error-free word of God".
In order for this to be true there would have to be one bible. There is not one bible. The bible is not one tome, it is a ragtag collection of ancient writings with multiple canon and translations. Whether you feel so or not translation is important.

The Bible contains errors regardless of the fact that there are different canons. Everyone knows there's difference canons and there's really no good reason to bring it up here unless it has some impact on how a model of origins could be developed from "the Bible".

So which translation differences prevent a model on origins from being developed?

Calling into question RTB's assertion that there is one errror-free version of the bible is very relevant in order to discount their claims.

I didn't see them assert that.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 140 by Theodoric, posted 03-28-2013 11:40 AM Theodoric has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 142 by Theodoric, posted 03-28-2013 1:58 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 5772
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 8.5


Message 142 of 143 (694790)
03-28-2013 1:58 PM
Reply to: Message 141 by New Cat's Eye
03-28-2013 12:16 PM


Re: Same stuff different day
All three of these cannot be error-free. One can be, or none can be.

Which parts, specifically, are mutually exclusive?

Did I claim anything about mutually exclusive. I stated all three cannot be error-free. In order for that to be true they would have to have the same text.

Whether or not a Bible canon contains a particular book that is unrelated to origins is irrelevant to a Biblical model on origins.

But Genesis does concern the Biblical model of Genesis and if they claim "the Bible" is error-free, then we must then determine what bible.

The Bible contains errors regardless of the fact that there are different canons. Everyone knows there's difference canons and there's really no good reason to bring it up here unless it has some impact on how a model of origins could be developed from "the Bible".

Of course there is. They claim the bible is error-free. In order to address that it is necessary to know what text they are claiming is "The Bible". According to the RTB model there are no errors. I agree with you that there are, no matter what version is used.

So which translation differences prevent a model on origins from being developed?

I do not feel there is a need to address that. If anyhting you are trying to build a strawman. RTB claims that the Bible is error-free are not even worthy of addressing if we do not know what the text is.

I didn't see them assert that.

Are you asserting that they would be fine with any text? The assertion of an error-free bible necessitates a particular version they believe is error free.

Also it is necessary to know what they mean by "error-free". There are many levels of inerrantists.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical_inerrancy

I am amazed that even when we agree on a topic you have to be confrontational.


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 141 by New Cat's Eye, posted 03-28-2013 12:16 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 143 by New Cat's Eye, posted 03-28-2013 2:56 PM Theodoric has not yet responded

    
New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11813
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 143 of 143 (694793)
03-28-2013 2:56 PM
Reply to: Message 142 by Theodoric
03-28-2013 1:58 PM


Re: Same stuff different day
Did I claim anything about mutually exclusive. I stated all three cannot be error-free. In order for that to be true they would have to have the same text.

I disagree. Whether it says that either god "moved upon" or god "hovered over" the face of the waters doesn't introduce an erroneous difference unless those things are mutually exclusive.

But Genesis does concern the Biblical model of Genesis and if they claim "the Bible" is error-free, then we must then determine what bible.

If we're considering Genesis, and all canons contain Genesis, then it doesn't matter which canon you pick (unless some translation difference causes some mutual exclusivity).

They claim the bible is error-free. In order to address that it is necessary to know what text they are claiming is "The Bible". According to the RTB model there are no errors. I agree with you that there are, no matter what version is used.

If there are errors no matter what version is used then we don't need to know what version they are using to say that it does contain errors.

The assertion of an error-free bible necessitates a particular version they believe is error free.

It doesn't necessitate limiting it to one version.

Also it is necessary to know what they mean by "error-free". There are many levels of inerrantists.

That being true; your claims that they have to be talking about one particular version, and that we have to know what it is, are rendered false. Perhaps they have some novel concept of "error free" that includes multiple canons of different translations.

Edited by Catholic Scientist, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 142 by Theodoric, posted 03-28-2013 1:58 PM Theodoric has not yet responded

  
Prev1
...
56789
10
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2015 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2017