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Author Topic:   Belief in God is scientific.
Ossat
Member (Idle past 2482 days)
Posts: 41
Joined: 03-29-2013


(1)
Message 121 of 262 (695406)
04-05-2013 6:08 AM
Reply to: Message 106 by jar
04-04-2013 1:20 PM


Re: faith is not needed
Not really. That's just a silly statement.
What is needed for you to understand and accept the Theory of Evolution as well as the Fact that Evolution happened is not faith but education, experience, critical thinking skills and honesty.
I happened to have secular education and be feed evolutionist doctrine. I have the experience of living and observing the world around me, I have critical thinking to see that things just don't make sense from an evolutions perspective, I keep improving my skills and opening mi mind to understand God's works. And I am honest to recognize that God did it all, no matter if you think I am silly, uneducated, unexperienced, uncritical, unskilled and dishonest
The fact that the Theory of Evolution is the only model so far that explains the fact of Evolution is also unrelated to the belief in God. Many of us, as devout Christians, understand both the fact that Evolution happened and how the Theory of Evolution explains what we see, yet we still believe in God and have Faith in God.
You are just assuming that evolution is a fact, but nevertheless. So you are a Devout Christian, but you cherrypick and decide what to believe from the Bible and what not. If you can't believe when God tells you how He made everything, how can you believe the texts about Jesus, and why did he even bothered dieing in the cross if Adam and Eve never even existed to sin and curse God's creation?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 106 by jar, posted 04-04-2013 1:20 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 135 by jar, posted 04-05-2013 10:44 AM Ossat has replied
 Message 142 by Taq, posted 04-05-2013 11:18 AM Ossat has not replied

  
Ossat
Member (Idle past 2482 days)
Posts: 41
Joined: 03-29-2013


Message 122 of 262 (695407)
04-05-2013 6:12 AM
Reply to: Message 107 by Dr Adequate
04-04-2013 1:29 PM


No, you'd need more knowledge than you presently have.
I have more knowledge than I had before. That's why I couldn't accept evolution anymore. The more I learn the weaker that theory looks. All you need to do is realize that evolution and science are not the same thing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 107 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-04-2013 1:29 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 124 by dwise1, posted 04-05-2013 6:55 AM Ossat has replied
 Message 154 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-07-2013 2:17 PM Ossat has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 123 of 262 (695409)
04-05-2013 6:31 AM
Reply to: Message 120 by Ossat
04-05-2013 5:52 AM


Ossat writes:
Would you say you don't need any faith to accept the theory of evolution? you can read this website or any other, or any book. That alone is not evidence at all, you are just believing in what other people is writing, you are basically having faith in them
Reading the books and listening to experts is just a shortcut to knowledge. You can, if you wish visit the museums where the fossils are help, dig a few up yourself down on the bit of beach where I live, perform a few experiments breading pigeons and bacteria and even do your own genetic analysis of the animals that science says are our relatives.
You see, Evolutionary Theory is a science, not a belief; it's backed by huge quantities of evidence that anyone can see and test.
It's quicker though, to read the books.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

This message is a reply to:
 Message 120 by Ossat, posted 04-05-2013 5:52 AM Ossat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 125 by Ossat, posted 04-05-2013 8:01 AM Tangle has replied

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 5930
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.8


Message 124 of 262 (695410)
04-05-2013 6:55 AM
Reply to: Message 122 by Ossat
04-05-2013 6:12 AM


We all have more knowledge than we had before.
Yet some of us accept nonsense as further knowledge. Such as yourself, it would appear.
You would need to specify your "further knowledge" so that we may determine whether it is actual knowledge or merely nonsense.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 122 by Ossat, posted 04-05-2013 6:12 AM Ossat has replied

Replies to this message:
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Ossat
Member (Idle past 2482 days)
Posts: 41
Joined: 03-29-2013


Message 125 of 262 (695414)
04-05-2013 8:01 AM
Reply to: Message 123 by Tangle
04-05-2013 6:31 AM


Reading the books and listening to experts is just a shortcut to knowledge. You can, if you wish visit the museums where the fossils are help, dig a few up yourself down on the bit of beach where I live, perform a few experiments breading pigeons and bacteria and even do your own genetic analysis of the animals that science says are our relatives.
What you read of a book and listen from an expert has necessarily to be right? Yeah the experimentation sounds more like science to me... could you give an example of what research have you done and what made you come to a conclusion that supports evolution?
You see, Evolutionary Theory is a science, not a belief; it's backed by huge quantities of evidence that anyone can see and test.
Evolutionary theory is not a science. It is a perspective from which you approach the natural phenomena that you want to study. To do science you need to reproduce by experiment your hypothesis. How can you reproduce the origin of life from non-life and changes in organisms leading to other species?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 123 by Tangle, posted 04-05-2013 6:31 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 129 by Pressie, posted 04-05-2013 9:07 AM Ossat has replied
 Message 131 by Tangle, posted 04-05-2013 9:25 AM Ossat has replied

  
Ossat
Member (Idle past 2482 days)
Posts: 41
Joined: 03-29-2013


Message 126 of 262 (695416)
04-05-2013 8:29 AM
Reply to: Message 124 by dwise1
04-05-2013 6:55 AM


We all have more knowledge than we had before.
Yet some of us accept nonsense as further knowledge. Such as yourself, it would appear.
You would need to specify your "further knowledge" so that we may determine whether it is actual knowledge or merely nonsense.
For example I have learnt that for life to be possible you need DNA which contains the necessary information to make up a given living thing; RNA to transport the information and proteins to build the actual living thing. How can you possibly have all this much together without nobody making it happen? that is nonsense for me. How could the information in the DNA make itself? how could the chains of amino acids that form the proteins appear by accident and get it just right? you know the simple and weak explanation provided by evolutionary theory: "given enough time and opportunities anything is possible". I just don't buy it anymore
Edited by Ossat, : Missed a word that change my meaning

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 127 by Coyote, posted 04-05-2013 8:50 AM Ossat has replied
 Message 128 by Pressie, posted 04-05-2013 8:59 AM Ossat has replied
 Message 130 by Percy, posted 04-05-2013 9:09 AM Ossat has replied
 Message 137 by 1.61803, posted 04-05-2013 10:57 AM Ossat has replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 127 of 262 (695417)
04-05-2013 8:50 AM
Reply to: Message 126 by Ossat
04-05-2013 8:29 AM


How could...
How could the information in the DNA make itself? how could the chains of amino acids that form the proteins appear by accident and get it just right? you know the simple and weak explanation provided by evolutionary theory: "given enough time and opportunities anything is possible". I just don't buy it anymore
Here is an online lecture that explains that for you. Sorry there is no way to make a short reply and convey all of the information in that lecture.
Making Genetic Networks Operate Robustly: Unintelligent Non-design Suffices, by Professor Garrett Odell (online lecture):
Abstract: Mathematical computer models of two ancient and famous genetic networks act early in embryos of many different species to determine the body plan. Models revealed these networks to be astonishingly robust, despite their 'unintelligent design.' This examines the use of mathematical models to shed light on how biological, pattern-forming gene networks operate and how thoughtless, haphazard, non-design produces networks whose robustness seems inspired, begging the question what else unintelligent non-design might be capable of.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

This message is a reply to:
 Message 126 by Ossat, posted 04-05-2013 8:29 AM Ossat has replied

Replies to this message:
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Pressie
Member
Posts: 2103
From: Pretoria, SA
Joined: 06-18-2010


(1)
Message 128 of 262 (695418)
04-05-2013 8:59 AM
Reply to: Message 126 by Ossat
04-05-2013 8:29 AM


Abiogenesis is not the theory of evolution
Ossat writes:
For example I have learnt that for life to be possible you need DNA which contains the necessary information to make up a given living thing; RNA to transport the information and proteins to build the actual living thing. How can you possibly have all this much together without nobody making it happen? that is nonsense for me. How could the information in the DNA make itself? how could the chains of amino acids that form the proteins appear by accident and get it just right? you know the simple and weak explanation provided by evolutionary theory: "given enough time and opportunities anything is possible". I just don't buy it anymore
If you had any basic education at all you would know that abiogenesis deals with how life started and the theory of evolution deals with what happened to life after it started. Because of this above I don't think that you had any education at all. Therefore I don't buy it when you claim that you had an education.
Edited by Pressie, : No reason given.
Edited by Pressie, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 126 by Ossat, posted 04-05-2013 8:29 AM Ossat has replied

Replies to this message:
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Pressie
Member
Posts: 2103
From: Pretoria, SA
Joined: 06-18-2010


Message 129 of 262 (695420)
04-05-2013 9:07 AM
Reply to: Message 125 by Ossat
04-05-2013 8:01 AM


Ossam writes:
To do science you need to reproduce by experiment your hypothesis.
Nope, it doesn't. Had any education?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 125 by Ossat, posted 04-05-2013 8:01 AM Ossat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 136 by Ossat, posted 04-05-2013 10:45 AM Pressie has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22391
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


(1)
Message 130 of 262 (695421)
04-05-2013 9:09 AM
Reply to: Message 126 by Ossat
04-05-2013 8:29 AM


Hi Ossat,
So let's consider as falsified (for the sake of discussion) the scientific explanations for the origin of life (that it was due to natural processes is about the only consensus right now) and for the diversity of species (evolution through a process of descent with modification and natural selection). How would this support the premise of this thread, that belief in God is scientific?
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 126 by Ossat, posted 04-05-2013 8:29 AM Ossat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 138 by Ossat, posted 04-05-2013 11:02 AM Percy has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 131 of 262 (695423)
04-05-2013 9:25 AM
Reply to: Message 125 by Ossat
04-05-2013 8:01 AM


Ossat writes:
What you read of a book and listen from an expert has necessarily to be right?
Pretty much, yes - depending of course on the book and the expert.
If your doctor tells you that he's sent the lump he took out of your testicle to the lab and it's confirmed his earlier diagnosis of cancer, do you believe him or do you tell him he's making it up because he's read a book and listened to an expert?
Do you think that when the next satellite gets put into space, it'll be done from first principles or do you think the designer looked up the trajectory based on what they already know?
I suspect you reserve your scepticism for evolutionary science only don't you?
Yeah the experimentation sounds more like science to me... could you give an example of what research have you done and what made you come to a conclusion that supports evolution?
I was convinced by being taught it, just like I was happy to 'believe' Ohms Law. But I know that I can test both if I need too. So can you.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

This message is a reply to:
 Message 125 by Ossat, posted 04-05-2013 8:01 AM Ossat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 198 by Ossat, posted 04-09-2013 8:18 AM Tangle has replied

  
Ossat
Member (Idle past 2482 days)
Posts: 41
Joined: 03-29-2013


Message 132 of 262 (695437)
04-05-2013 10:32 AM
Reply to: Message 127 by Coyote
04-05-2013 8:50 AM


Re: How could...
Thanks for the video,
While it is very interesting, it stills doesn't answer my questions. maybe I was not clear enough, but In my last post I was talking about origins of life. In the video the professor shows how random arrangements in the genetic pool can produce robust networks that show patterns like the black stripes in the fruit fly. That it fine, it doesn't either supports evolution or refuses creationism. As I have seen life, God created us all with the possibility of variations like the ones shown by the professor. But this doesn't involve that in a million years from now you will have different species as a result of this random production of functional networks. You will still have flies at best.
my question still stands, how this immense range of possibilities could've come from nothing?

This message is a reply to:
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Larni
Member (Idle past 164 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 133 of 262 (695438)
04-05-2013 10:39 AM
Reply to: Message 101 by Stile
04-04-2013 11:50 AM


Re: Programming for your Brain
How do you program your brain?
Cognitive Restructuring.

The above ontological example models the zero premise to BB theory. It does so by applying the relative uniformity assumption that the alleged zero event eventually ontologically progressed from the compressed alleged sub-microscopic chaos to bloom/expand into all of the present observable order, more than it models the Biblical record evidence for the existence of Jehovah, the maximal Biblical god designer.
-Attributed to Buzsaw Message 53
The explain to them any scientific investigation that explains the existence of things qualifies as science and as an explanation
-Attributed to Dawn Bertot Message 286
Does a query (thats a question Stile) that uses this physical reality, to look for an answer to its existence and properties become theoretical, considering its deductive conclusions are based against objective verifiable realities.
-Attributed to Dawn Bertot Message 134

This message is a reply to:
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Ossat
Member (Idle past 2482 days)
Posts: 41
Joined: 03-29-2013


Message 134 of 262 (695439)
04-05-2013 10:42 AM
Reply to: Message 128 by Pressie
04-05-2013 8:59 AM


Re: Abiogenesis is not the theory of evolution
If you had any basic education at all you would know that abiogenesis deals with how life started and the theory of evolution deals with what happened to life after it started.Because of this above I don't think that you had any education at all. Therefore I don't buy it when you claim that you had an education.
Thanks for your correction but for the evolution theory to be true the abiogenesis needs to be true as well, because the first is based on the second. I wont't deal with the flaws of evolution at this point. I just wanted to point that not even origen of life is proven by science. abiogenesis is just an attempt to try to explain how life appeared, like panspermia, it's just hard core mental gymnastics to come up with explanations on how life could have appeared by itself

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Replies to this message:
 Message 140 by Tangle, posted 04-05-2013 11:09 AM Ossat has replied
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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 135 of 262 (695441)
04-05-2013 10:44 AM
Reply to: Message 121 by Ossat
04-05-2013 6:08 AM


Re: faith is not needed
Well no, I'm not just assuming that Evolution is a fact; that is a conclusion based on all of the evidence. There was a time when there was no life on this planet. Then there was just very simple life. Over time the things living on this planet changed.
That is Evolution.
So you are a Devout Christian, but you cherrypick and decide what to believe from the Bible and what not. If you can't believe when God tells you how He made everything, how can you believe the texts about Jesus, and why did he even bothered dieing in the cross if Adam and Eve never even existed to sin and curse God's creation?
GOD wrote the Universe; man wrote the Bible.
how can you believe the texts about Jesus, and why did he even bothered dieing in the cross if Adam and Eve never even existed to sin and curse God's creation?
Well, I've actually read the Bible and there is nothing in there to support Adam and Eve sinning or God cursing man such that Jesus would have to be sacrificed as a blood offering.
Jesus was born a man, therefore Jesus was going to die.
It really is that simple but that should be discussed in another thread.
But in the Bible the stories tell two different and mutually exclusive tales about how God created all living things anyway.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 121 by Ossat, posted 04-05-2013 6:08 AM Ossat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 199 by Ossat, posted 04-09-2013 8:40 AM jar has replied

  
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