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Author Topic:   Can science say anything about a Creator God?
Just being real
Member (Idle past 3936 days)
Posts: 369
Joined: 08-26-2010


Message 391 of 506 (696823)
04-18-2013 9:47 PM
Reply to: Message 163 by JonF
04-02-2013 11:15 AM


JBR: Some sort of universes parameters are needed to have a fluctuation
JonF: Really? Please provide references or a proof.
JBR: How about you provide me with just one example where the phenomena has been observed apart from the parameters of the universe, and I'll withdraw my comment. Otherwise I cite them all as proof.
JonF:Huh? Your message seems to have no relation to the issue. You claimed "Some sort of universes parameters are needed to have a fluctuation".
Yes and thats the point. Quantum fluctuations are only known to occur within space that already exists. How would the first universe-generating fluctuation occur without space? And how could that space be there without a universe already in place? Therefore we have only observed (for lack of a better term) quantum fluctuations occur within universal perameters. You asked from proof of that statement. I pointed to all quantum fluctuation experiments ever conducted as that proof Jon. I can say that because they all occured within our current space time universe.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 163 by JonF, posted 04-02-2013 11:15 AM JonF has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 393 by NoNukes, posted 04-18-2013 11:58 PM Just being real has replied

  
Just being real
Member (Idle past 3936 days)
Posts: 369
Joined: 08-26-2010


Message 392 of 506 (696824)
04-18-2013 9:47 PM
Reply to: Message 167 by Percy
04-02-2013 12:52 PM


Except that, yes, we do know that the phenomenon is happening everywhere all the time. You still have a very strong skepticism toward what is a well known and well established phenomenon.
You sure have a way of straining at a gnat but yet ignoring the camel, don’t you? Look, my skepticism to whether or not they occur everywhere all the time is inconsequential to the paramount problem of quantum fluctuations only being observed taking place within the parameters of this universe’s already existing time and space. A luxury that the fluctuation which hypothetically created the universe would not have had.

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 Message 167 by Percy, posted 04-02-2013 12:52 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 394 by Straggler, posted 04-19-2013 9:44 AM Just being real has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 393 of 506 (696835)
04-18-2013 11:58 PM
Reply to: Message 391 by Just being real
04-18-2013 9:47 PM


You asked from proof of that statement. I pointed to all quantum fluctuation experiments ever conducted as that proof Jon. I can say that because they all occured within our current space time universe.
If you accept that reasoning, then why not this identical reasoning?
Every observed effect ever encountered has been the result of a natural cause. No one has ever traced any effect to a non-natural cause. The universe is a caused effect. Thus the universe resulted from a natural cause.
What you are ignoring is that quantum fluctuations are predicted by a theory that suggests that quantum fluctuations do exist in a vacuum of nothing. We have no reason to believe that theory is incorrect, because the theory has passed every verification. In fact, even the term 'universe parameters' is total BS faux science. It has no meaning whatsoever. Why don't you name a 'universe parameter' that you feel is required for quantum fluctuations to exist.
What you are saying, in effect, is that you'll never accept indirect evidence for a natural cause of the universe. That's not the same as no evidence, but it's good enough for you.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ‘That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.’ Galileo Galilei 1615.
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 391 by Just being real, posted 04-18-2013 9:47 PM Just being real has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 395 by Just being real, posted 04-19-2013 11:53 AM NoNukes has replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 394 of 506 (696861)
04-19-2013 9:44 AM
Reply to: Message 392 by Just being real
04-18-2013 9:47 PM


1 - 0 to the fluctuations
JBR writes:
Look, my skepticism to whether or not they occur everywhere all the time is inconsequential to the paramount problem of quantum fluctuations only being observed taking place within the parameters of this universe’s already existing time and space.
Well it would be quite an achievement for us to observe something outisde of time and space........
But the fact remains that quantum fluctuation have been observed whilst creator gods haven't.
1 - 0 to the fluctuations.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 392 by Just being real, posted 04-18-2013 9:47 PM Just being real has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 396 by Just being real, posted 04-19-2013 11:53 AM Straggler has replied

  
Just being real
Member (Idle past 3936 days)
Posts: 369
Joined: 08-26-2010


Message 395 of 506 (696872)
04-19-2013 11:53 AM
Reply to: Message 393 by NoNukes
04-18-2013 11:58 PM


Every observed effect ever encountered has been the result of a natural cause
Is the computer in front of you a natural cause? Or is it an intelligent cause? What about a bird's nest? Natural or intelligent? How about drift wood lined out on the beach of an island that spells "Marooned Please Send Help" ? The materials are all natural forming but are their specified arrangements natural or intelligent? Obviously the correct answer here is intelligent. Thus every effect ever encountered has not been the result of a natural cause. This means the rest of your house built upon the sinking sands of this faulty premise is doomed to collapse my friend.
What you are ignoring is that quantum fluctuations are predicted by a theory that suggests that quantum fluctuations do exist in a vacuum of nothing. We have no reason to believe that theory is incorrect, because the theory has passed every verification
How can it have passed anything? It is completely untestable. Unless you know of a way to leave time and space and run tests that I'm unaware of. All quantum fluctuations ever detected have occurred in time and space. In order for one to happen outside of time and space it would have to first be capable of creating its own time and space to fluctuate in to. We have no observations to suggest this is even a possibility. Virtual particles are produced from space-time not from nothing. Not to even mention the fact that all of this assumes the pre-existence of the laws of physics in order for a quantum fluctuation to occur. How could these laws have preceded that event?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 393 by NoNukes, posted 04-18-2013 11:58 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 399 by NoNukes, posted 04-19-2013 12:12 PM Just being real has replied
 Message 400 by NoNukes, posted 04-19-2013 12:13 PM Just being real has not replied
 Message 401 by Tangle, posted 04-19-2013 12:15 PM Just being real has replied

  
Just being real
Member (Idle past 3936 days)
Posts: 369
Joined: 08-26-2010


Message 396 of 506 (696873)
04-19-2013 11:53 AM
Reply to: Message 394 by Straggler
04-19-2013 9:44 AM


But the fact remains that quantum fluctuation have been observed whilst creator gods haven't.
Actually quantum fluctuations have never been "observed" Straggler. They are unobservable. What we have observed are their effects. We have never observed air either. It is invisible to our eyes. But we sure have observed its effects. Likewise just because we have never observed God doesn't mean we can't detect His effects. And I think that these effects are clearly and scientifically detectable. All one needs do is look for specified information where the only possible ramification is that it was formed by a supremely intelligent being. i.e...laws of physics, the arrangement of the cosmos, the parameters of our solar system and planet to support life, the specified code in DNA etc...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 394 by Straggler, posted 04-19-2013 9:44 AM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 397 by NoNukes, posted 04-19-2013 12:06 PM Just being real has not replied
 Message 398 by NoNukes, posted 04-19-2013 12:07 PM Just being real has replied
 Message 402 by Straggler, posted 04-19-2013 12:17 PM Just being real has replied
 Message 405 by bluegenes, posted 04-19-2013 1:57 PM Just being real has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 397 of 506 (696877)
04-19-2013 12:06 PM
Reply to: Message 396 by Just being real
04-19-2013 11:53 AM


left open tag which apparently deletes text
Edited by NoNukes, : bad dupe removed

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ‘That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.’ Galileo Galilei 1615.
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 396 by Just being real, posted 04-19-2013 11:53 AM Just being real has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 398 of 506 (696878)
04-19-2013 12:07 PM
Reply to: Message 396 by Just being real
04-19-2013 11:53 AM


We have never observed air either. It is invisible to our eyes. But we sure have observed its effects.
So then the fact that we don't see quantum fluctuations is of no consequence. And neither is the fact that we cannot see beyond our own universe.
And I think that these effects are clearly and scientifically detectable. All one needs do is look for specified information where the only possible ramification is that it was formed by a supremely intelligent being
And backing up that 'I think' with some evidence or logical argument is the point of the thread.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ‘That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.’ Galileo Galilei 1615.
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 396 by Just being real, posted 04-19-2013 11:53 AM Just being real has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 425 by Just being real, posted 04-20-2013 3:38 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 399 of 506 (696879)
04-19-2013 12:12 PM
Reply to: Message 395 by Just being real
04-19-2013 11:53 AM


Is the computer in front of you a natural cause? Or is it an intelligent cause? What about a bird's nest? Natural or intelligent?
I suppose I did leave this opening.
The computer in front of me is of natural origins versus super natural origins.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ‘That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.’ Galileo Galilei 1615.
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 395 by Just being real, posted 04-19-2013 11:53 AM Just being real has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 426 by Just being real, posted 04-20-2013 3:58 PM NoNukes has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 400 of 506 (696881)
04-19-2013 12:13 PM
Reply to: Message 395 by Just being real
04-19-2013 11:53 AM


Is the computer in front of you a natural cause? Or is it an intelligent cause? What about a bird's nest? Natural or intelligent?
I suppose I did leave this opening.
The computer in front of me is of natural origins versus super natural origins. It was not produced by a Creator God, said origin being the subject of this thread.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ‘That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.’ Galileo Galilei 1615.
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 395 by Just being real, posted 04-19-2013 11:53 AM Just being real has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 401 of 506 (696882)
04-19-2013 12:15 PM
Reply to: Message 395 by Just being real
04-19-2013 11:53 AM


JBR writes:
Is the computer in front of you a natural cause?
Put it the other way - did it have a supernatural cause?
Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

This message is a reply to:
 Message 395 by Just being real, posted 04-19-2013 11:53 AM Just being real has replied

Replies to this message:
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Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


(1)
Message 402 of 506 (696883)
04-19-2013 12:17 PM
Reply to: Message 396 by Just being real
04-19-2013 11:53 AM


Predictions
The obvious disparity here is that quantum field theory is one of the most successful scientific theories ever devised. It has demonstrated itself able to make predictions which have led to new discoveries. The ability of QFT to accurately predict experimental results has been described as comparable to determining the distance from Boston to Pasadena to within the thickness of a human hair.
What has your "goddidit" hypothesis ever led to the discovery of?
If the answer to that is "nothing" why do you think we should even put the two things in the same ballpark of credence?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 396 by Just being real, posted 04-19-2013 11:53 AM Just being real has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 403 by NoNukes, posted 04-19-2013 12:52 PM Straggler has not replied
 Message 404 by Phat, posted 04-19-2013 1:37 PM Straggler has replied
 Message 407 by GDR, posted 04-19-2013 2:17 PM Straggler has replied
 Message 430 by Just being real, posted 04-20-2013 5:14 PM Straggler has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 403 of 506 (696887)
04-19-2013 12:52 PM
Reply to: Message 402 by Straggler
04-19-2013 12:17 PM


Re: Predictions
What has your "goddidit" hypothesis ever led to the discovery of?
If I understand designtheorist's intent for these threads, his plan was to show us that RTB made better predictions of future discoveries than did naturalistic creation theories.
But he has not managed to get around to that yet. And predictions of future science is not the same thing as actually finding future science anyway.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ‘That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.’ Galileo Galilei 1615.
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 402 by Straggler, posted 04-19-2013 12:17 PM Straggler has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 404 of 506 (696899)
04-19-2013 1:37 PM
Reply to: Message 402 by Straggler
04-19-2013 12:17 PM


Predictions and Conclusions
Straggler writes:
What has your "goddidit" hypothesis ever led to the discovery of?
I feel that I have witnessed confirmation both pro and con in regards to belief ideologies, mental health and illness, and cultural bias. It is evident that we are in the midst of a war between cultures, ideologies, and ways of life.
To me, God sent His Son to fix the imperfections but I can also see that critics would logically assert that religious beliefs are often the cause of strife and war. Scientifically, I can really prove nothing along these lines.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 402 by Straggler, posted 04-19-2013 12:17 PM Straggler has replied

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 Message 406 by Straggler, posted 04-19-2013 1:58 PM Phat has not replied

  
bluegenes
Member (Idle past 2478 days)
Posts: 3119
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 405 of 506 (696907)
04-19-2013 1:57 PM
Reply to: Message 396 by Just being real
04-19-2013 11:53 AM


Some questions
Just being real writes:
Likewise just because we have never observed God doesn't mean we can't detect His effects. And I think that these effects are clearly and scientifically detectable. All one needs do is look for specified information where the only possible ramification is that it was formed by a supremely intelligent being. i.e...laws of physics, the arrangement of the cosmos, the parameters of our solar system and planet to support life, the specified code in DNA etc...
(1) Why do any of the things you've listed require a "supremely intelligent being"?
(2) Are you suggesting that miracles (lawless magic) would be evidence against a physical law making god?
(3) What force, if any, constrains your god to create a world with the physical regularities that we call laws?
(4) What laws, if any, would your god be subject to?
(5) If he is not subject to any constraints (laws) then how can the hypothesis "God created the world" make any predictions about the world?
(6) Wouldn't any world of any description be compatible with the hypothesis?
(7) If (6) then how could observations of this world provide evidence for a creator god?
(8) If you think that the the DNA code cannot come about by the physical processes of this world, do you also think that your god made the world with the wrong type of physical nature for our type of life?
(9) In your opinion, did it require a miracle (law breaking) to bring about DNA based life?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 396 by Just being real, posted 04-19-2013 11:53 AM Just being real has not replied

  
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