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Author Topic:   Is String Theory Supernatural?
Straggler
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Posts: 10208
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 16 of 181 (697410)
04-25-2013 6:40 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by New Cat's Eye
04-24-2013 3:10 PM


CS writes:

I don't know because I don't know what supernatural is.

Then how can you claim to believe in the supernatural?

CS writes:

If you mean "above" or "outside" of nature (i.e. our universe), then I can see how it could work as a description.

If there is a multiverse why is "nature" limited to our universe?

CS writes:

But if you mean "magic", then no, I wouldn't say string theory is supernatural.

Do you know what "magic" is? Do you believe in magic?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-24-2013 3:10 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-26-2013 1:29 PM Straggler has responded

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10208
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 17 of 181 (697411)
04-25-2013 6:43 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by ProtoTypical
04-24-2013 8:34 PM


Re: It is all natural
Dogma writes:

Anything that can be known will be incorporated into the realm of the natural.

See Studying the supernatural


This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by ProtoTypical, posted 04-24-2013 8:34 PM ProtoTypical has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by ProtoTypical, posted 04-25-2013 7:55 AM Straggler has responded

  
ProtoTypical
Member
Posts: 1768
From: Ontario Canada
Joined: 08-04-2010


Message 18 of 181 (697414)
04-25-2013 7:55 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by Straggler
04-25-2013 6:43 AM


Re: It is all natural
See Studying the supernatural

I wonder if you could narrow down your response a little? If not then I would refer you to the Encyclopaedia Britannica.

You said in the other thread,

Ultimately "supernatural" means those things which are defined as being inherently immune from physical explanation.

Is the existence of the universe an example of something like that? History tells us that the explanation is coming.

Is string theory really equivalent to the by gosh and by golly ideas of ghosts and gods?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by Straggler, posted 04-25-2013 6:43 AM Straggler has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by Straggler, posted 04-25-2013 8:37 AM ProtoTypical has responded

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10208
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


(2)
Message 19 of 181 (697420)
04-25-2013 8:37 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by ProtoTypical
04-25-2013 7:55 AM


Re: It is all natural
Straggler writes:

Ultimately "supernatural" means those things which are defined as being inherently immune from physical explanation.

Pro writes:

Is the existence of the universe an example of something like that?

It depends doesn't it? If the universe was migically poofed into existence by an omniscient, omnipotent creator of all that is seen and unseen - Then yes the creation and existence of the universe would be an example of something like that.

Pro writes:

History tells us that the explanation is coming.

Sure. And the present state of theoretical physics suggests that the answers may well involve expanding our conceptual horizons to something even greater than the notion of our own single universe.

Pro writes:

Is string theory really equivalent to the by gosh and by golly ideas of ghosts and gods?

No. Because ghosts and gods are supernatural concepts whilst the notion of the multiverse isn't.

It was only because I was so taken aback by the assertion that anything involving natural laws that were not those of our own universe qualifies as "supernatural" that I wrote the OP to this thread.

Personally I think classifying string theory as a theory of the supernatural because it suggests universes other than our own to be a rather silly approach.........


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 Message 18 by ProtoTypical, posted 04-25-2013 7:55 AM ProtoTypical has responded

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 Message 38 by ProtoTypical, posted 04-26-2013 7:56 AM Straggler has responded

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 873 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 20 of 181 (697431)
04-25-2013 10:30 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Straggler
04-24-2013 5:24 AM


It has been suggested over in the topic Can science say anything about a Creator God? that anything which exists outside the physical laws of our universe is supernatural.

This is a terrible argument. Our universe is a representative of the physical laws NOT the actual physical laws. The laws of physics aren't limited to what is found in this universe. As is always said, a tweek here or there and the universe would be different, and a multi-verse system would be how the many variations are represented.

I don't think it makes sense to say that something can "exist" outside of any physical laws, be it the ones our universe is bound by, or another variation of them. To "exist" is to be bound by some kind of physical laws.

Something that isn't bound by some kind of physical law/s simply doesn't exist. Anyone claiming they've experienced something like that is delusional.

- Oni

Edited by onifre, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Straggler, posted 04-24-2013 5:24 AM Straggler has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by Straggler, posted 04-25-2013 10:52 AM onifre has acknowledged this reply

    
GDR
Member
Posts: 4502
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 21 of 181 (697432)
04-25-2013 10:36 AM
Reply to: Message 14 by Straggler
04-25-2013 6:34 AM


Re: What is supernatural?
Straggler writes:

So if we are the science project of an alien in another universe that alien is God.....

Why not if you want to look at it that way?

Straggler writes:

There are all sorts of things we cannot directly perceive but instead logically infer based on physical evidence. E.g. dark matter.

I fail to see why the multi-verse is any different in terms of qualifying as 'natural'.

Here is the first definition from Webster's:

quote:

: of or relating to an order of existence beyond the visible observable universe; especially : of or relating to God or a god, demigod, spirit, or devil

A multi-verse is certainly outside the visible observable universe as is dark matter for that matter. The line gets pretty blurred.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by Straggler, posted 04-25-2013 6:34 AM Straggler has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by Straggler, posted 04-25-2013 10:48 AM GDR has responded
 Message 26 by onifre, posted 04-25-2013 10:53 AM GDR has responded
 Message 27 by Taq, posted 04-25-2013 10:55 AM GDR has not yet responded

    
1.61803
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Posts: 2784
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 22 of 181 (697434)
04-25-2013 10:48 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by Straggler
04-25-2013 6:05 AM


Re: Thread Copied from Proposed New Topics Forum
hi Straggler

Straggler writes:

It's the difference between magic and the physical laws in another universe.

Have you ever watched a show called 'Fringe' I enjoyed watching it and am in the process of watching the series from the beginning.

The show is basically about a small group of people who work for a faction of the Homeland Defense Dept. They investigate the wierd, unexplained, supernatural stuff that happens.
The show always begins with some inexplicable horrific experience like a body solidifying and exploding, or a large parasitic worm crawling out of a group of human Chinese incubators or people popping back and forth between alternate universes..... anyway the Fringe team usually solves the mystery by the end of the hour.
It always involves some naturalist scientific explanation.

Is string theory/M-theory supernatural?
String theory is a theory that makes some untestable assumptions that only work if there are 11 dimentions.

The theory can never be tested/observed, since the strings are Plankes length and unobservable. But that does not mean it is un provable.

Are these theories supernatural? imo No.

There is one theory that the reason gravity is such a weak force is because it is leaking into our universe from another universe. So we possibly are already influenced by a extra dimentional phenomenon. Is it supernatural. I do not think so.
Some theist believe that God (if he exist) is the one responsible for the super intelligent extradimentional beings that possibly created our universe/our existance.

Now that would be supernatural.


"You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by Straggler, posted 04-25-2013 6:05 AM Straggler has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by Straggler, posted 04-25-2013 10:51 AM 1.61803 has responded

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10208
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 23 of 181 (697435)
04-25-2013 10:48 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by GDR
04-25-2013 10:36 AM


Re: What is supernatural?
GDR writes:

Why not if you want to look at it that way?

I don't. I think classifying anything outside of our physical universe as "supernatural" is a very silly way of looking at ideas in modern physics.

GDR writes:

Here is the first definition from Webster's:

Somneone should inform Websters that they have classified Dark Matter as supernatural. I think they might dispute that.

GDR writes:

A multi-verse is certainly outside the visible observable universe as is dark matter for that matter.

As was the Higgs Boson prior to the LHC being built.

Do things flip from being supernatural to natural depending on our technological ability to detect them as far as you are concerned?

GDR writes:

The line gets pretty blurred.

The fact it is being blurred doesn't mean it needs to be blurred or that any blurring is justified...


This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by GDR, posted 04-25-2013 10:36 AM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by GDR, posted 04-25-2013 11:47 AM Straggler has responded

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10208
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 24 of 181 (697436)
04-25-2013 10:51 AM
Reply to: Message 22 by 1.61803
04-25-2013 10:48 AM


Re: Thread Copied from Proposed New Topics Forum
Numbers writes:

It always involves some naturalist scientific explanation.

Sounds like the X Files in reverse. There Scully relentlessly proclaimed "there must be a rational explanation here" but there rarely was....

Numbers writes:

The theory can never be tested/observed, since the strings are Plankes length and unobservable.

Nor can quarks be directly observed. So what?

Edited by Straggler, : No reason given.


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 Message 22 by 1.61803, posted 04-25-2013 10:48 AM 1.61803 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by 1.61803, posted 04-26-2013 9:40 AM Straggler has responded

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10208
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 25 of 181 (697437)
04-25-2013 10:52 AM
Reply to: Message 20 by onifre
04-25-2013 10:30 AM


Oni writes:

This is a terrible argument.

I agree. But there are people here who are actually proposing this


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 Message 20 by onifre, posted 04-25-2013 10:30 AM onifre has acknowledged this reply

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 873 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 26 of 181 (697438)
04-25-2013 10:53 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by GDR
04-25-2013 10:36 AM


Re: What is supernatural?
The line gets pretty blurred.

Manipulating the line makes it blurry.

quote:
: of or relating to an order of existence beyond the visible observable universe; especially : of or relating to God or a god, demigod, spirit, or devil

This is a messy definition for two reasons.

First, beyond the obsevable universe is still more universe - it is only beyond observation from our place in the universe. As we understand the expansion of the universe, eventually everything will expand beyond an ability to observe it from Earth.

Second, none of that above information is "of or relating to God or a god, demigod, spirit, or devil" since those things are the subject of fictional books, stories and mythology.

A better definition of the supernatural would be, "something that isn't bound by any physical laws."

- Oni

Edited by onifre, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by GDR, posted 04-25-2013 10:36 AM GDR has responded

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Taq
Member
Posts: 7574
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.6


Message 27 of 181 (697440)
04-25-2013 10:55 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by GDR
04-25-2013 10:36 AM


Re: What is supernatural?
A multi-verse is certainly outside the visible observable universe as is dark matter for that matter. The line gets pretty blurred.

The question is why should we limit the "natural" to the observable universe? That is like limiting the natural to our planet which would make the Sun a supernatural object.

Also, if string theory is true then there is no deity involved. That would seem to remove a very important leg from the definition of supernatural. I really doubt that people will want to include machine like and mindless processes in the definition of supernatural. Just look at how upset people become when we want to replace direct special creation with a mechanistic process like evolution.

Edited by Taq, : No reason given.


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ringo
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Posts: 15403
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.8


(1)
Message 28 of 181 (697443)
04-25-2013 11:41 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by Straggler
04-25-2013 6:37 AM


Re: Thread Copied from Proposed New Topics Forum
Straggler writes:

Even if that ability were the result of technology based on utilising the natural laws under which the multiverse itself operates.......?


If the multiverse laws were distinct from our laws, I think it would be permissible to label them as "supernatural". I might prefer "extranatural".
This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by Straggler, posted 04-25-2013 6:37 AM Straggler has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by Straggler, posted 04-25-2013 3:47 PM ringo has responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 4502
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 29 of 181 (697444)
04-25-2013 11:47 AM
Reply to: Message 23 by Straggler
04-25-2013 10:48 AM


Re: What is supernatural?
Straggler writes:

As was the Higgs Boson prior to the LHC being built.

Do things flip from being supernatural to natural depending on our technological ability to detect them as far as you are concerned?

I think we might have different assumptions about the subject. Frankly I was just questioning the definition of the word supernatural without the definition necessarily involving god(s).

I answered your first question about an alien creator being a god but after that I was just looking for a definition so that it could be applied to string theory. It seems to me that if you decide that string theory is supernatural it doesn't make any assumptions about whether there is god or not.

So you tell me. "Do things flip from being supernatural to natural depending on our technological ability to detect them as far as you are concerned?" From the dictionary definitions the line seems to be blurred and this has nothing to do with my theistic beliefs.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
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 Message 35 by Straggler, posted 04-25-2013 4:01 PM GDR has responded

    
GDR
Member
Posts: 4502
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 30 of 181 (697445)
04-25-2013 11:50 AM
Reply to: Message 26 by onifre
04-25-2013 10:53 AM


Re: What is supernatural?
onifre writes:

A better definition of the supernatural would be, "something that isn't bound by any physical laws."

That sounds good to me, as does what Ringo suggested.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by onifre, posted 04-25-2013 10:53 AM onifre has responded

Replies to this message:
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