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Author Topic:   Is String Theory Supernatural?
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 74 of 181 (697841)
04-30-2013 4:43 PM
Reply to: Message 72 by New Cat's Eye
04-30-2013 4:32 PM


Re: What is supernatural?
C S writes:
Miracles aren't congruent with science.
That was my point. It is a miracle for that reason.
C S writes:
I don't see the point in calling a multiverse "supernatural". How does that help at all?
I didn't call it supernatural. If you read my responses to Straggler I think I dealt with that there. If Heaven is an interlocking universe with its own laws then that's fine by me.
I have always understood that supernatural is something that occurs outside of our natural laws. It seems that the consensus is that supernatural means the absence of any laws. From that POV I'm ok with saying that God doesn't necessarily conform to that definition of supernatural. I can't see where it makes a difference from our perspective one way or the other.
I'm hoping to be a lot clearer on all this stuff in the next life.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-30-2013 4:32 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 75 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-30-2013 5:29 PM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 76 of 181 (697847)
04-30-2013 7:11 PM
Reply to: Message 73 by Taq
04-30-2013 4:42 PM


Re: What is supernatural?
Taq writes:
How does it inform it?
I already gave you the example that science has shown me that God used an evolutionary process for creation.
Taq writes:
What I find more interesting is that christianity does not seem to inform science.
Science only uses what can be verified through the scientific method. Science might verify some aspects of Christianity but it won't work the other way around.
Taq writes:
The Bible is the claim, not the evidence.
It has many authors but they have a point in writing what they did. The Gospel writers obviously intended to chronicle an account of what happened that they claim to be correct. I agree that it isn't a conclusive argument but it is evidence. They may have gotten it wrong, but maybe they didn't.
Taq writes:
Where in the theory of evolution does it describe how God interacts with the world? What evidence or experiments have demonstrated how this interaction takes place? What experiments have tested the interaction of God with our "hearts and minds"?
I'm starting from the position of being a believing Christian, just as you start from the position of being an atheist. Science gives an account of how we have evolved so I understand that God has interacted with the world in such a way as to be a first cause of the evolutionary process. For you it is, presumably, simply the result of a process with a non-intelligent first cause .
There is no evidence that God interacts through our hearts and minds. It is belief. I know for example that we have a conscience. Is that God speaking to our hearts and minds? I believe that it is whereas you believe that isn't.
I'm just saying that if God is part of a co-existing universe that interlocks in some way with our own that that could be the point of connection between God and our hearts and minds.
We are probably miles off topic here by the way.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by Taq, posted 04-30-2013 4:42 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 78 by Taq, posted 05-01-2013 9:06 AM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 77 of 181 (697848)
04-30-2013 7:14 PM
Reply to: Message 75 by New Cat's Eye
04-30-2013 5:29 PM


Re: What is supernatural?
C S writes:
But its one of the main tenets of christianity... That kinda screws up the whole "congruent with science" thing.
Not at all. It is a miracle because it only contravenes the natural laws that we experience. When science talks about other dimensions and universes then we have no comprehension of what laws if any might be part of another form of existence.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-30-2013 5:29 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 79 by New Cat's Eye, posted 05-01-2013 10:09 AM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 81 of 181 (697908)
05-01-2013 2:47 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by Taq
05-01-2013 9:06 AM


Re: What is supernatural?
Taq writes:
What science informed you that God used evolutionary processes? I am unaware of any scientific study that has shown a deity being part of evolutionary processes.
I didn’t claim that. You used a quote out of context. I assumed my belief that we are a creation of God. I am only saying that science is compatible with my Christian faith and in the case of evolution I have learned about the process that I believe God used to bring about life as we know it. I am not claiming that science gives us any objective position on the existence of a deity.
Taq writes:
Why do you immediately assume that some aspects of Christianity are unverifiable? Why immediately assume that the supernatural is unverifiable through scientific means?
I suppose you may want to argue the point but I do assume that science is not going to provide answers as to why we have a sense of morality. I understand the naturalist philosophical argument but that isn`t science.
Taq writes:
It has authors making claims of what they did.
Sure, I’m fine with that.
Taq writes:
What scientific studies have shown that God interacted with the world as a first cause for evolutionary processes?
None
Taq writes:
It is the result of whatever the evidence indicates. If there is no evidence then "I don't know" is the correct answer for the time being.
As I stated before, there were atheists before Darwin, and there were after. Right now we do not know how universes are produced, and there are still atheists. We don't know the specifics of how life started on Earth, or how life could start. There are still atheists.
OK, but we all have our beliefs, whether we know something objectively or not.
Taq writes:
Then why try to continually attach science to these beliefs?
As I’ve said before. My posts have assumed that I am correct in my theistic beliefs. Science itself is agnostic as you pointed out. However, if I am correct, then as science would be the study of what God has created and so it seems to me that science will tell us something about the creator.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by Taq, posted 05-01-2013 9:06 AM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 84 by Taq, posted 05-01-2013 5:03 PM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


(1)
Message 83 of 181 (697919)
05-01-2013 3:14 PM
Reply to: Message 79 by New Cat's Eye
05-01-2013 10:09 AM


Re: What is supernatural?
C S writes:
The better point with the congruency with science is that you can use science to better understand some aspects of your faith. But there's no good reason to argue that there are not any aspects of your faith that are not congruent with science. Besides, that just turns god's miracles into cheap parlor tricks.
Thank you. That is what I have been trying to say and obviously not doing much of a job of it.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by New Cat's Eye, posted 05-01-2013 10:09 AM New Cat's Eye has seen this message but not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 85 of 181 (697932)
05-01-2013 6:22 PM
Reply to: Message 80 by Straggler
05-01-2013 12:20 PM


Re: What is supernatural?
Straggler writes:
So the same parallel universes that physicists are suggesting are possible explanations for the gravitational effects of dark matter and suchlike you are citing as the supernatural dwelling place of your god.
The parallel universes physicists are suggesting as possible explanations for observable phenomena are, according to you, supernatural. So, if we follow the logic of your argument, physicists are in fact putting forward supernatural explanations for observable phenomena.
I don’t intend to go that far. The point is that Christianity has had the position that God is ever-present and interacts with this world. Science is now talking about the existence of other universes, that we are unable to perceive directly, and that influence our existence. I realize that what scientists are looking at is by no means theistic nor even close to what I’m suggesting. However, as a Christian it gives me a concept of heaven that frankly one isn’t likely to get from reading the Bible. Certainly this view is dependent on my pre-existing beliefs, but we all have those.
Straggler writes:
Does it really sound like physicists are talking about heaven here? Or something that is congruent with Jesus resurrection? Or congruent with the notion that some intelligent being in another universe is silently influencing our hearts and minds in some sort of non-physical fashion? Really?
In the article they have a part headed by IN BRIEF which is a synopsis of the article. It says this:
quote:
Scientists have two independent reasons for thinking that the cosmos is filled with some unknown form of matter, dark matter. Not only do stars, galaxies and gas clouds move as if they are being tugged by the gravity of hidden material, but processes such as radioactivity present puzzles that can be solved by the existence of hitherto unknown particles. Dark matter is usually assumed to consist of WIMP’s, a kind of particle that scarcely interacts with the visible world. Boringness is its sine qua non.
Or at least that is the usual assumption. Might dark matter in fact have a rich inner life? Particle physicists striving to understand what makes up dark matter think it could interact through a full range of forces, including a form of light to which our eyes are totally blind.
Now I realize that when it talks about a deep inner life it is talking about particle life. (Mind you our bodies are nothing but particles.) But when it talks about a form of light which are unable to perceive then it goes to show that there is a lot that we don’t know about it.
Here is another wild speculation that will again lead me wide open to attack and ridicule. (Fortunately I have broad shoulders, unfortunately I’m only speaking figuratively.) Here is a wiki article on The Hard Problem of Consciousness It seems to me that it is conceivable that it is our consciousness which is the point at which we interlock with some part of the 95.5% of the universe that we don’t perceive.
Straggler writes:
How is this different from saying that complex intelligent entities just randomly exist rather than not? I thought one of your key objections to non-theistic origins was randomness.? No?
I’m not sure how you draw that from what I said. There is certainly a great deal of randomness in our existence. I made the choice about who I was going to mate with. There certainly appears to be considerable randomness in evolution yet we have wound up with an existence that despite all the apparent obstacles continues to flourish.
I also think that we can look at randomness even in terms of the evolution of our morality. That Robert Wright book, The Evolution of God that we both appreciated was instrumental in forming my thinking of how God interacts with us. The title in one way says it all. Our morality, which as a Christian I see as the working of God in our hearts, is an evolutionary process itself and it is essentially random. If we are born of moral parents then we are more likely to become moral people ourselves and so on through the generations. Also as moral people interact with less moral people they can influence them and of course the opposite is true as well. However if I am right about God then, we should suspect that in spite of all that randomness in the process, mankind should slowly and irregularly grow to be more moral. Certainly there are huge inconsistencies but I contend that it is a more moral world now than it was 2000 years ago.
That was a long way of saying that I don’t really have a problem with randomness.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by Straggler, posted 05-01-2013 12:20 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 96 by Straggler, posted 05-02-2013 8:06 PM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 86 of 181 (697933)
05-01-2013 6:40 PM
Reply to: Message 84 by Taq
05-01-2013 5:03 PM


Re: What is supernatural?
Taq writes:
Why bring science into it at all? Why not just say, "These are my beliefs, and I have no evidence for them." I just don't see how unevidenced beliefs are compatible with science.
Why bring science into it at all? It starts with unevidenced beliefs, does not touch anything that can be considered evidence, and then ends on unevidenced beliefs. It reads to me like an attempt to add legitimacy to your beliefs where none exists.
Well I don’t agree that my beliefs are unevidenced. We exist which is evidence of something. There are claims made by the writers of the Bible as well as other books about our origins. Those books are evidence and we come to our own beliefs of what to believe about the various claims.
Science is one way of helping us form those beliefs. If I understand the Bible as a science text dictated by God then I will have a very different take on our origins than I will if I accept the scientific account. Science, history and philosophy have very much helped from my beliefs.
Do you believe that your atheism is compatible with science? If you say yes I wouldn’t disagree. Presumably as you learn more your views change and one of the things that we can learn more about is science. I am quite prepared to have science changed my views. I, like everyone else am just trying to sort out truth, or as close as I can get to it.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by Taq, posted 05-01-2013 5:03 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 87 by Taq, posted 05-01-2013 6:54 PM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 88 of 181 (697936)
05-01-2013 7:09 PM
Reply to: Message 87 by Taq
05-01-2013 6:54 PM


Re: What is supernatural?
Taq writes:
I am unaware of a scientific account by which God has dictated anything. Again, you are trying to cozy your beliefs up next to science in the hopes that the legitimacy of science will rub off onto your beliefs. Doesn't work that way.
As I have said before I am assuming that my theistic beliefs are accurate. I am not using science to legitimize my beliefs, I am using science to help form them.
Taq writes:
My atheism has nothing to do with science. Atheism is a lack of belief in gods. That's it. Science has to do with a methodical process of determining how the the universe works. Two different things. There were atheists before modern science existed, before we understood the things we now understand.
Sure. I get that. However you don't find anything in science that causes you to disbelieve your atheism. I don't find anything in science that causes me to disbelieve my theism.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by Taq, posted 05-01-2013 6:54 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 89 by Taq, posted 05-01-2013 7:12 PM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 90 of 181 (697940)
05-01-2013 8:06 PM
Reply to: Message 89 by Taq
05-01-2013 7:12 PM


Re: What is supernatural?
Taq writes:
So what scientific studies have demonstrated that God dictated what is found in the Bible?
None. For that matter I don't believe God dictated the Bible. Good grief, I have had enough arguments with Faith and others on that point.
Taq writes:
So why science? Why do you feel the need to compare your beliefs to science?
Because I believe that science can tell us a great deal about the world.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 89 by Taq, posted 05-01-2013 7:12 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 91 by Taq, posted 05-02-2013 11:18 AM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 92 of 181 (698008)
05-02-2013 1:45 PM
Reply to: Message 91 by Taq
05-02-2013 11:18 AM


Re: What is supernatural?
Taq writes:
Then why make the following claim?
"I am not using science to legitimize my beliefs, I am using science to help form them."
You claim that you are using science to form your beliefs, but when asked for the science you claim there is none.
My belief is that God created us. Science informs me about processes that He used to bring it about.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by Taq, posted 05-02-2013 11:18 AM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 93 by Taq, posted 05-02-2013 6:50 PM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 94 of 181 (698061)
05-02-2013 7:26 PM
Reply to: Message 93 by Taq
05-02-2013 6:50 PM


Re: What is supernatural?
Taq writes:
Around we go.
What scientific studies demonstrate that God used anything?
I keep answering that and you keep asking it.
The answer is none. I look at the science with my pre-existing theistic beliefs, so when I look at the science I start with the assumption that God did it.
However, when it comes to the science itself my pre-existing theistic beliefs don't cause me to reject any of the science on those grounds.
I'm just re-wording the same answer. I don't see what else I can do.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by Taq, posted 05-02-2013 6:50 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 98 by Taq, posted 05-03-2013 11:48 AM GDR has not replied
 Message 99 by ringo, posted 05-03-2013 1:00 PM GDR has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 107 of 181 (698193)
05-03-2013 8:18 PM
Reply to: Message 106 by AZPaul3
05-03-2013 7:32 PM


Re: What is supernatural?
AZPaul3 writes:
Hey, GDR, I'm putting a lot of words in your mouth. Feel free to spit them back out.
I can't thank you enough. It seemed to me that I was clear enough in saying that so I'm glad that at least somebody got it.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 106 by AZPaul3, posted 05-03-2013 7:32 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 109 by AZPaul3, posted 05-03-2013 9:43 PM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


(2)
Message 108 of 181 (698194)
05-03-2013 8:29 PM
Reply to: Message 96 by Straggler
05-02-2013 8:06 PM


Re: Random Incongruencies
Straggler writes:
I think we have reached a point where you need to explain in exactly what way you think your beliefs are 'congruent' with science. You seem to readily admit that your theistic beliefs are not evidenced, supported or even suggested by science. Furthermore you seem to recognise that some of your theistic beliefs are entirely inconsistent with everything we scientifically know (e.g. miracles such as the resurrection)
Hi Straggler
As usual you ask really good questions that require a lot of thought to answer. The thing is, as I have said, some of my views are highly speculative so it is difficult to provide a srtong rationale for them.
I think that I have managed to drag your thread a long way from the OP. If it is OK with you I will put together my beliefs and reasons for them as soon as I can and put them in a new thread where I'll be really open to being shot at.
I enjoy your posts, and although I know this is a debate forum I use it as a discussion forum. I don't really care about scoring points but about learning by seeing what others have to say, by forcing me to write out my own ideas which becomes a form of self critique, and also so that I can have my own views critiqued. You seem to get that more than some others. Thanks
Greg

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by Straggler, posted 05-02-2013 8:06 PM Straggler has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 110 of 181 (698199)
05-04-2013 1:03 AM
Reply to: Message 109 by AZPaul3
05-03-2013 9:43 PM


Re: What is supernatural?
AZPaul3 writes:
Now the trick is to keep the grand, the awe, the miraculous wonder and incredible beauty that is the reality of this universe in your mind
So far so good. Just wonder why you find it beautiful? If you're just a collection of random particles come together by a lot of good luck it seems to me that you would just see it as the way things are. The thing is though that it is miraculous and it is incredibly beautiful which is one of the reasons I believe as I do.
(I probably should have resisted the urge to say that and quit while I was ahead. )
AZPaul3 writes:
lose the irrational security blanket of god done it.
Darn. You started out so well. Here is another of the atheistic beliefs that I kinda reject. I believe, not because I'm looking for a security blanket but because I believe it's the truth. For that matter, if you have read some of my posts you would see that I don't believe that we are made right with God because of what we believe but because of where our heart is.
AZPaul3 writes:
I can imagine it's scary but you are so close to standing with your own intellect freeing your mind of ghosts.
Whatever intellect I have leaves me with very little doubt of the basics of what I believe. I also have no doubt that many of the non-essential things I believe are a little or maybe a whole lot off base. The two basic essentials for me are the resurrection of Jesus and the idea that God is good.
AZPaul3 writes:
Push, Grasshopper! Push!
No matter how I push it is hard to reject something that I so firmly believe to represent the truth in order to believe something that I'm firmly convinced is wrong.
Once again though, thanks for the help. You accurately presented my views and I appreciate it. It ain't always easy being a theist, let alone a Christian around here.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 109 by AZPaul3, posted 05-03-2013 9:43 PM AZPaul3 has seen this message but not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 124 of 181 (698704)
05-09-2013 12:16 AM
Reply to: Message 123 by AZPaul3
05-08-2013 11:11 PM


Re: What is supernatural?
AZPaul3 writes:
First of all, you have to find an M-theorist who actually believes this crap about some heaven in the universe of brane-worlds. Then we'll talk.
Actually I don't see it that way at all. All any scientist should do is look for the truth without any preconceived notion, be they theistic or atheistic.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 123 by AZPaul3, posted 05-08-2013 11:11 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 125 by AZPaul3, posted 05-09-2013 1:05 AM GDR has replied

  
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