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Author Topic:   Is String Theory Supernatural?
Taq
Member
Posts: 7572
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.6


Message 91 of 181 (697992)
05-02-2013 11:18 AM
Reply to: Message 90 by GDR
05-01-2013 8:06 PM


Re: What is supernatural?
None. For that matter I don't believe God dictated the Bible. Good grief, I have had enough arguments with Faith and others on that point.

Then why make the following claim?

"I am not using science to legitimize my beliefs, I am using science to help form them."

You claim that you are using science to form your beliefs, but when asked for the science you claim there is none.

Because I believe that science can tell us a great deal about the world.

I agree. Where we differ is in your claims that you are using science to form your beliefs.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by GDR, posted 05-01-2013 8:06 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 92 by GDR, posted 05-02-2013 1:45 PM Taq has responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 4502
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 92 of 181 (698008)
05-02-2013 1:45 PM
Reply to: Message 91 by Taq
05-02-2013 11:18 AM


Re: What is supernatural?
Taq writes:

Then why make the following claim?
"I am not using science to legitimize my beliefs, I am using science to help form them."
You claim that you are using science to form your beliefs, but when asked for the science you claim there is none.

My belief is that God created us. Science informs me about processes that He used to bring it about.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by Taq, posted 05-02-2013 11:18 AM Taq has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 93 by Taq, posted 05-02-2013 6:50 PM GDR has responded

    
Taq
Member
Posts: 7572
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.6


Message 93 of 181 (698056)
05-02-2013 6:50 PM
Reply to: Message 92 by GDR
05-02-2013 1:45 PM


Re: What is supernatural?
Science informs me about processes that He used to bring it about.

Around we go.

What scientific studies demonstrate that God used anything?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by GDR, posted 05-02-2013 1:45 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 94 by GDR, posted 05-02-2013 7:26 PM Taq has responded
 Message 95 by AZPaul3, posted 05-02-2013 7:57 PM Taq has not yet responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 4502
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 94 of 181 (698061)
05-02-2013 7:26 PM
Reply to: Message 93 by Taq
05-02-2013 6:50 PM


Re: What is supernatural?
Taq writes:

Around we go.

What scientific studies demonstrate that God used anything?

I keep answering that and you keep asking it.

The answer is none. I look at the science with my pre-existing theistic beliefs, so when I look at the science I start with the assumption that God did it.

However, when it comes to the science itself my pre-existing theistic beliefs don't cause me to reject any of the science on those grounds.

I'm just re-wording the same answer. I don't see what else I can do.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by Taq, posted 05-02-2013 6:50 PM Taq has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 98 by Taq, posted 05-03-2013 11:48 AM GDR has not yet responded
 Message 99 by ringo, posted 05-03-2013 1:00 PM GDR has not yet responded

    
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 3456
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006


(1)
Message 95 of 181 (698062)
05-02-2013 7:57 PM
Reply to: Message 93 by Taq
05-02-2013 6:50 PM


Re: What is supernatural?
Around we go.

I keep answering that and you keep asking it.

I understand where GDR is coming from. And, as usual, he can slap me around if I get this wrong.

He is not saying “science shows god did this.”

When science says “this is how it happened” GDR says “So that's how god made this happen. Interesting.”

Whenever science comes up with an accurate effective model GDR pulls out his trusty sledge hammer and beats on Occam's Razor till it's all warped bent and dull then adds his god to the equation purely as a blind article of faith.

Science is not saying his god did it but science has informed him of the model so he can say this is how his god did it.

Quite refreshing from the usual religionist “NO NO NO CAN”T BE. YOU SCIENTISTS ARE ALL WRONG. YOU KNOW NOTHING! THE BIBLE SAYS...”

Just as wrong but refreshing none the less.

Edited by AZPaul3, : usual


This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by Taq, posted 05-02-2013 6:50 PM Taq has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 97 by 1.61803, posted 05-03-2013 9:29 AM AZPaul3 has acknowledged this reply

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10208
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 96 of 181 (698063)
05-02-2013 8:06 PM
Reply to: Message 85 by GDR
05-01-2013 6:22 PM


Random Incongruencies
I think we have reached a point where you need to explain in exactly what way you think your beliefs are 'congruent' with science. You seem to readily admit that your theistic beliefs are not evidenced, supported or even suggested by science. Furthermore you seem to recognise that some of your theistic beliefs are entirely inconsistent with everything we scientifically know (e.g. miracles such as the resurrection)

Does being 'congruent' with science simply mean invoking other universes to explain away anything you believe that science would otherwise describe as 'unscientific'...?

GDR writes:

I realize that what scientists are looking at is by no means theistic nor even close to what I’m suggesting.

Then where is this much proclaimed congruency?

GDR writes:

The point is that Christianity has had the position that God is ever-present and interacts with this world.

The sort of interaction you have put forward is however far from 'congruent' with science. Nothing physicists are talking about allows for the sort of interaction you have described at all.

GDR writes:

Here is a wiki article on The Hard Problem of Consciousness It seems to me that it is conceivable that it is our consciousness which is the point at which we interlock with some part of the 95.5% of the universe that we don’t perceive.

Invoking substance dualism whilst arguing that one's beliefs are 'congruent' with science is rather contradictory.....

GDR writes:

My belief is that God created us. Science informs me about processes that He used to bring it about.

What specifically do the conjectures of theoretical physicists regarding parallel universes tell you about God's processes?

Straggler writes:

So, if we follow the logic of your argument, physicists are in fact putting forward supernatural explanations for observable phenomena.

GDR writes:

I don’t intend to go that far.

In what way does the parallel universe you are postulating as the dwelling place of your god differ from the parallel universes physicists are invoking as potential explanations for observable phenomena (e.g. gravitational effects of dark matter)?

Straggler writes:

How is this different from saying that complex intelligent entities just randomly exist rather than not? I thought one of your key objections to non-theistic origins was “randomness”….? No?

GDR writes:

That was a long way of saying that I don’t really have a problem with randomness.

Oh. Then on what basis can one conclude that a hyper-intelligent-ready-made-complex-being just randomly exists rather than the simple-constituents-that-in-time-lead-to-the-moderately-intelligent-beings-that-are-us just randomly exists?

Straggler writes:

So if we are the science project of an alien in another universe that alien is God.....

GDR writes:

I would say yes as they are outside the physical laws of the universe that we are able to directly perceive.

I'm increasingly coming to the conclusion that your beliefs as described are not only incongruent with science but with Christianity as well. The position you are putting forward sounds more like a rival to scientology than anything else.

Straggler writes:

Maybe this god of yours worships a higher being?

GDR writes:

I don’t believe that to be the case but so what if He did?

Then he wouldn't be the supreme supernatural being that seems to be a general requirement of monotheistic faiths such as Christianity and I would further argue the case that the position you are advocating is neither congruent with science nor really Christianity.

Edited by Straggler, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by GDR, posted 05-01-2013 6:22 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 108 by GDR, posted 05-03-2013 8:29 PM Straggler has not yet responded

  
1.61803
Member
Posts: 2783
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 97 of 181 (698119)
05-03-2013 9:29 AM
Reply to: Message 95 by AZPaul3
05-02-2013 7:57 PM


Re: What is supernatural?
Hi AZPaul3,

Just as wrong but refreshing none the less.

To do otherwise would be to ignore scientific evidence and embrace ignorance.

I know a good deal of people who believe in God, attend Christian Churches and have occupations in the field of medicine as physicians.

How they square their faith with science baffles me but they somehow manage to do it.


"You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs

This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by AZPaul3, posted 05-02-2013 7:57 PM AZPaul3 has acknowledged this reply

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 7572
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.6


Message 98 of 181 (698159)
05-03-2013 11:48 AM
Reply to: Message 94 by GDR
05-02-2013 7:26 PM


Re: What is supernatural?
I keep answering that and you keep asking it.

The answer is none.

Then you are not using science to form your beliefs as you claimed earlier.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by GDR, posted 05-02-2013 7:26 PM GDR has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 100 by New Cat's Eye, posted 05-03-2013 1:01 PM Taq has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 15400
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 99 of 181 (698165)
05-03-2013 1:00 PM
Reply to: Message 94 by GDR
05-02-2013 7:26 PM


Re: What is supernatural?
GDR writes:

I look at the science with my pre-existing theistic beliefs, so when I look at the science I start with the assumption that God did it.


You believe that your car was created by the great Ford in the sky (under the sign of the big T). Your study of how the car works (somehow) confirms this belief. Even a visit to the factory (somehow) confirms your belief.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by GDR, posted 05-02-2013 7:26 PM GDR has not yet responded

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 100 of 181 (698166)
05-03-2013 1:01 PM
Reply to: Message 98 by Taq
05-03-2013 11:48 AM


Re: What is supernatural?
I keep answering that and you keep asking it.
The answer is none.

Then you are not using science to form your beliefs as you claimed earlier.

I think you could be a little more fair here. Let's say he comes to a belief that god created man. Then, through science, he learns that man evolved over time. Then he modifies his belief to include evolution in god's creative process. That would be using science to form his beliefs even though science doesn't include god in the process.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 98 by Taq, posted 05-03-2013 11:48 AM Taq has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 101 by Taq, posted 05-03-2013 1:07 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 7572
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.6


Message 101 of 181 (698168)
05-03-2013 1:07 PM
Reply to: Message 100 by New Cat's Eye
05-03-2013 1:01 PM


Re: What is supernatural?
I think you could be a little more fair here. Let's say he comes to a belief that god created man. Then, through science, he learns that man evolved over time. Then he modifies his belief to include evolution in god's creative process. That would be using science to form his beliefs even though science doesn't include god in the process.

As you admit above, he came to the belief that god created man before learning about the science. The belief is that god created man, and nowhere in that belief do we find a reference to science nor a scientific source as the foundation of that belief. The belief exists independent of any scientific study or theory. The belief is just tacked on to the scientific theory. Nowhere does the scientific theory lend itself to the belief.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by New Cat's Eye, posted 05-03-2013 1:01 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 102 by New Cat's Eye, posted 05-03-2013 1:22 PM Taq has not yet responded

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 102 of 181 (698170)
05-03-2013 1:22 PM
Reply to: Message 101 by Taq
05-03-2013 1:07 PM


Re: What is supernatural?
As you admit above, he came to the belief that god created man before learning about the science. The belief is that god created man, and nowhere in that belief do we find a reference to science nor a scientific source as the foundation of that belief. The belief exists independent of any scientific study or theory. The belief is just tacked on to the scientific theory. Nowhere does the scientific theory lend itself to the belief.

But he's still using science to form... wait... what does he mean by "form" the belief? If we're talking about creating the belief, then sure, you're right. But I was thinking he meant that he's using the science to modify the belief.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by Taq, posted 05-03-2013 1:07 PM Taq has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 103 by AZPaul3, posted 05-03-2013 6:22 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 3456
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006


Message 103 of 181 (698187)
05-03-2013 6:22 PM
Reply to: Message 102 by New Cat's Eye
05-03-2013 1:22 PM


Re: What is supernatural?
But he's still using science to form... wait... what does he mean by "form" the belief?

Form? Who said "form?" What I read from GDR was "inform."

[aside]

Damn CS, the more I see that avatar the more intreguing it becomes.

Good show, man.

[/aside]

Edited by AZPaul3, : added aside


This message is a reply to:
 Message 102 by New Cat's Eye, posted 05-03-2013 1:22 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 104 by Taq, posted 05-03-2013 6:55 PM AZPaul3 has responded
 Message 105 by New Cat's Eye, posted 05-03-2013 7:18 PM AZPaul3 has acknowledged this reply

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 7572
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.6


Message 104 of 181 (698189)
05-03-2013 6:55 PM
Reply to: Message 103 by AZPaul3
05-03-2013 6:22 PM


Re: What is supernatural?
Form? Who said "form?" What I read from GDR was "inform."

So what science informed GDR that God used evolution to create humanity?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 103 by AZPaul3, posted 05-03-2013 6:22 PM AZPaul3 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 106 by AZPaul3, posted 05-03-2013 7:32 PM Taq has responded

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 105 of 181 (698190)
05-03-2013 7:18 PM
Reply to: Message 103 by AZPaul3
05-03-2013 6:22 PM


Re: What is supernatural?
Form? Who said "form?" What I read from GDR was "inform."

Taq said 'form' in the Message 98 that I originally replied to.

In the message that that is a reply to, GDR said:

quote:
I look at the science with my pre-existing theistic beliefs, so when I look at the science I start with the assumption that God did it.

However, when it comes to the science itself my pre-existing theistic beliefs don't cause me to reject any of the science on those grounds.


So I'm right as to what he meant. He's even cheered my message.

I haven't looked back to see if that's what he has actually "said", tho.

Taq writes, in Message 104:

So what science informed GDR that God used evolution to create humanity?

As he's admitted, there isn't any. Science hasn't provided the information for God. Its just "forming" it.


ABE:

[aside]

Damn CS, the more I see that avatar the more intreguing it becomes.

Good show, man.

[/aside]

Oh, yes. Thank you. There's a lot of meaning there for me. Is there an "avatar" thread? Care to start one? I've seen some doozies

Edited by Catholic Scientist, : see ABE


This message is a reply to:
 Message 103 by AZPaul3, posted 05-03-2013 6:22 PM AZPaul3 has acknowledged this reply

  
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