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Author Topic:   Design Framework for Evolution
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 12 of 81 (698707)
05-09-2013 12:33 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by Albert de Roos
05-07-2013 6:17 AM


Classical terms such as natural selection and random mutation seem irrelevant or useless at a macroevolutionary scale.
Could you explain why they would be useless? Is it primarily because it does not fit within your model, or because it is impossible to imagine evolution actually occurring.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ‘That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.’ Galileo Galilei 1615.
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Albert de Roos, posted 05-07-2013 6:17 AM Albert de Roos has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by Albert de Roos, posted 05-09-2013 3:53 AM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 17 of 81 (698837)
05-09-2013 11:12 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by Albert de Roos
05-09-2013 3:53 AM


macroevolution because they do not explain the origin of Life
Your use of the term 'macroevolution' seems unconventional. Would you mind stating your definition explicitly?
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ‘That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.’ Galileo Galilei 1615.
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by Albert de Roos, posted 05-09-2013 3:53 AM Albert de Roos has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by Albert de Roos, posted 05-10-2013 7:12 AM NoNukes has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 32 of 81 (698976)
05-11-2013 11:17 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by Albert de Roos
05-11-2013 8:48 AM


So basically, you start with either the stator or the rotor and keep adding extra modules to it.
Why would I do such a thing? When would I be finished designing? Who am I?

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ‘That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.’ Galileo Galilei 1615.
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by Albert de Roos, posted 05-11-2013 8:48 AM Albert de Roos has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by Albert de Roos, posted 05-12-2013 8:00 AM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 34 of 81 (698982)
05-12-2013 9:10 AM
Reply to: Message 33 by Albert de Roos
05-12-2013 8:00 AM


I don't think that there was a conscious design or an active designer at work. For me, the driving forces are in the life cycle itself and an intrinsic active evolvability built into the genome.
I want to pursue the 'driving forces' beyond mere hand waving because these are the forces that substitute for random variation and natural selection that predominate in natural evolution.
Yes, if some force was going to add wings to a wingless creature, perhaps it would do so in a way your model would accept, but in order to see if this force makes more sense than does current theory, does it make sense to explore whether we can find evidence for the forces?

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ‘That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.’ Galileo Galilei 1615.
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by Albert de Roos, posted 05-12-2013 8:00 AM Albert de Roos has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by Albert de Roos, posted 05-13-2013 12:50 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 36 of 81 (699028)
05-13-2013 1:04 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by Albert de Roos
05-13-2013 12:50 PM


Whose proposal is it anyway...
See it as a software program that will create its own extra code with each software development cycle.
I don't want an analogy with programming. I want to know what in the real world corresponds to your "driving forces" such that no random addition processes are involved and such that natural selection is not a meaningful effect.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ‘That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.’ Galileo Galilei 1615.
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by Albert de Roos, posted 05-13-2013 12:50 PM Albert de Roos has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by Albert de Roos, posted 05-14-2013 4:05 AM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 52 of 81 (699079)
05-14-2013 10:19 AM
Reply to: Message 45 by Albert de Roos
05-14-2013 4:05 AM


Re: Whose proposal is it anyway...
never said that no random addition processes are involved or that natural selection is not a meaningful effect. I expect them to be involved, but they do not explain evolution.
Here is what you did say:
Classical terms such as natural selection and random mutation seem irrelevant or useless at a macroevolutionary scale.
Quite frankly, because you use non-standard terms, it is unreasonably difficult to figure out exactly what you are saying, but it does appear to me that irrelevant and useless are quite contrary to "meaningful".
What you seem to be saying with your software analogy, is that evolution works on whatever is already designed.
I don't see any software features built into biological designs that drive new designs. I am asking that you point them out, but instead you simply say 'they are built into the genome'. Okay, but where? Give me an example of the genome itself giving direction for addition of improvement to spur on evolution.
Under the theory of evolution 'direction' comes from primarily from the environment and not from the genome. There may indeed be a few counter examples, involving things like an increased mutation rate at certain sites in reaction to stimulus like starvation, but generally speaking, but is there a case to be made that wings and fins develop in response to some programming in the genome? If so, where is the support for that?
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ‘That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.’ Galileo Galilei 1615.
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by Albert de Roos, posted 05-14-2013 4:05 AM Albert de Roos has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 55 by Albert de Roos, posted 05-14-2013 1:43 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 62 of 81 (699144)
05-14-2013 11:22 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by Albert de Roos
05-14-2013 1:43 PM


Re: Whose proposal is it anyway...
I accept your admonishment on the use f the term improvements. That usage is quite sloppy.
Brownian motion is random, but can be used to give a direction to a molecule. I also assume a selection process, but they do not have to be natural.
Brownian motion can give an unpredictable motion to a molecule. It would seem vain to me to reject Brownian motion or to call it unscientific on that basis. But it seems that you reject natural selection/random mutation on exactly that basis.
Wings and fins would have evolved not because there was some fitness advantage, but due to an intrinsic recombination process in which all possible kinds of extremities (wings, fins, legs) are continuously explored.
You have some reason to believe that this cannot occur simply with a genome vulnerable to copying errors.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ‘That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.’ Galileo Galilei 1615.
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by Albert de Roos, posted 05-14-2013 1:43 PM Albert de Roos has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 64 by Albert de Roos, posted 05-15-2013 10:57 AM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 65 of 81 (699166)
05-15-2013 11:47 AM
Reply to: Message 64 by Albert de Roos
05-15-2013 10:57 AM


Re: Whose proposal is it anyway...
What I try to say is that although random process may be involved, these would not help us to explain evolution. I do not reject NS+RM at all, but they cannot provide a framework for unraveling evolution.
I understand that, but I think what you are saying is nonsense. What would be the equivalent thing you would say about Brownian motion?
We need mechanisms beyond RM+NS to explain evolution. I think that in order to grow in complexity there needs to be an intrinsic driving force, not an extrinsic force.
And what is your reason for such a belief? Why are RM+NS so clearly insufficient? Are you familiar with software programs that attempt to model evolution using RM+NS?
But to understand the active 'recombination machine'that has evolved, you need to look at the functions of the machine. The function of a house is not explained by timber, nails and a hammer.
Right, but who is trying to do the latter?
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ‘That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.’ Galileo Galilei 1615.
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by Albert de Roos, posted 05-15-2013 10:57 AM Albert de Roos has not replied

  
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