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Author Topic:   Delusions of Grandeur?
mrnobody42
Junior Member (Idle past 1227 days)
Posts: 9
Joined: 02-18-2013


Message 76 of 82 (700077)
05-29-2013 11:31 PM
Reply to: Message 73 by Spiritual Anarchist
05-24-2013 7:31 PM


Re: Dawkins God Delusion
The Supreme Source of Reality is Awareness. So, this is not at odds with Pantheism at all. The relationship between The Supreme Source (Undifferentiated Awareness)and its manifestations (individualized Awareness) are like the relationship between Pure Undifferentiated White Light and a Rainbow. So, I guess from a Pantheistic perspective, you could say that the White light is God and the rainbow are all the beings. The One manifesting as many.

As far as the Universal soul or the soul of a human or cat for that matter. Its all Awareness, so neither man nor the universe has a soul. But rather the Soul (Awareness) has a universe and individuals. Remember, cats, men and universes are measurable and subject to causation. The only dynamic in the equation of your life that is not measurable, observable or quantifiable is Awareness. The uncaused cause of all Reality.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by Spiritual Anarchist, posted 05-24-2013 7:31 PM Spiritual Anarchist has not yet responded

    
mrnobody42
Junior Member (Idle past 1227 days)
Posts: 9
Joined: 02-18-2013


Message 77 of 82 (700079)
05-29-2013 11:41 PM
Reply to: Message 70 by bluegenes
05-23-2013 4:23 AM


Re: Dawkins God Delusion
bluegenes aksed "Do you mean that "God" is not a part of reality, and therefore necessarily unreal?

When lights is bent and appears as a rainbow, is the light not part of the rainbow and therefore unecessarily unreal?

well, same deal with the supreme source (light) and its manifestations (rainbow)

Its rather simple actually...


This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by bluegenes, posted 05-23-2013 4:23 AM bluegenes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 78 by bluegenes, posted 05-30-2013 4:17 AM mrnobody42 has responded

    
bluegenes
Member (Idle past 37 days)
Posts: 3119
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 78 of 82 (700083)
05-30-2013 4:17 AM
Reply to: Message 77 by mrnobody42
05-29-2013 11:41 PM


Re: Dawkins God Delusion
mrnobody42 writes:

bluegenes writes:

"Do you mean that "God" is not a part of reality, and therefore necessarily unreal?

When lights is bent and appears as a rainbow, is the light not part of the rainbow and therefore unecessarily unreal?

No.

mrnobody writes:

well, same deal with the supreme source (light) and its manifestations (rainbow)

Its rather simple actually...

Is it? What I was questioning was your concept of a source of reality. Reality can't have a real source that is not part of it. Therefore, there cannot be an actual source of reality.

"Source of reality" is a nonsensical phrase, like "source of everything", because the "source" would be a thing.

It's rather simple actually...


This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by mrnobody42, posted 05-29-2013 11:41 PM mrnobody42 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 79 by mrnobody42, posted 05-30-2013 9:54 PM bluegenes has not yet responded

  
mrnobody42
Junior Member (Idle past 1227 days)
Posts: 9
Joined: 02-18-2013


Message 79 of 82 (700189)
05-30-2013 9:54 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by bluegenes
05-30-2013 4:17 AM


Re: Dawkins God Delusion
I dont know how to quote you so bare with me please.

Bluegenes said " Reality can't have a real source that is not part of it."

OK, but as I said, Awareness is the source of reality and I think you would agree that Awareness IS also part of the reality that it creates so your "therefore" part is irrelevant. Actually your statement that ...

"Therefore, there cannot be an actual source of reality." sounds silly, doesnt it. No source eh?

I hope you are not basing your theory that there can not be a source of reality on your idea that...

" "Source of reality" is a nonsensical phrase, like "source of everything", because the "source" would be a thing."

As I pointed out earlier, the Source is Awareness and Awareness is not a "THING" itself now is it?


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 Message 78 by bluegenes, posted 05-30-2013 4:17 AM bluegenes has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 81 by Spiritual Anarchist, posted 05-31-2013 12:13 AM mrnobody42 has responded

    
Spiritual Anarchist
Member (Idle past 1108 days)
Posts: 70
From: Raleigh NC
Joined: 01-27-2013


Message 80 of 82 (700196)
05-31-2013 12:09 AM
Reply to: Message 68 by bluegenes
05-23-2013 2:54 AM


Re: Dawkins God Delusion
You're unlikely to get any disagreement on that quote, because we can all think of alternatives.

Really? Name one.

The definition of Alternatives

al·ter·na·tive

Adjective
(of one or more things) Available as another possibility.
Noun
One of two or more available possibilities

So by alternative I mean something possible.

When you say "We can think of alternatives." Are including things that you do not see as possible?

If you are saying that maybe bugs bunny and his friends are real and we are the cartoons or any other nonsensical ideas with no evidence are included as alternatives then you are not taking my post in the way it was intended.

I do not mean ...do you consider that there are alternatives like Christianity or other religions or even Bugs Bunny then reject these ideas based on lack of evidence.

Bugs Bunny being real or religion being true may be alternatives but they are not alternatives based on any real possibility.

When I ask do you consider alternative views to your own... I am asking do you consider that there are any views besides your own that have an actual possibility of being true?

Atheist seem to think that if atheism is true then anything supernatural is by definition not real. That is fine. And I agree! But the further conclusion that materialism is all there is non sequitar. It does not follow.

If there is no supernatural world that does not prove materialism.

It is assumed that since QM is accessible in our reality that there fore QM is not part of another reality. Just as it assumed that if we live in a Universe that we describe as all there is that therefore there are not other Universes. IF these assumptions are NOT true it would NOT prove the Supernatural is real.

Theist think that if God is real then by definition God must be a person and if I have a soul that this both proves the supernatural world is real and also that everything that religion says about God Reality and the Soul is true.

But even if I could prove that I had a soul and that God was a part of our reality and therefore God exist as a real phenomena that would not prove anything about Theism or any particular religion as true.

Because I think Atheist and Theist assume that their view is not only true but that there are no other views I do not think that either side actually considers any alternatives to their own views. This is why most Christians consider me an Atheist and most Atheist consider me a Theist.

It is not just that they think any other view besides their own is wrong but they further assume that the religious view and atheist view are the only two alternatives.

I can accept that you think my view is wrong.

What I can not accept is when the Atheist calls me a Theist or when the Theist calls me an Atheist.

I am neither.

And if either side could conceive of alternative views they would know that this is not only possible but true and actual. ( It is true and actual that I am not completely Atheist and I am in no way a Theist)

Atheist: Believes that we are process of our brains and have no souls. Any alternative views are supernatural woo.

Theist: Believe that God is a person and our soul is something that can be created or destroyed or even trapped . Also that the supernatural is real and one of the world religions is definitely true

Me: I believe that I am not my body I Believe that I have a soul and a soul by definition is aware . Since awareness can not have a beginning or end I am immortal. But my body can die so it follows that I incarnate into other bodies.(This only follows if I am not my body)

I am not the process of my brain even if plunging a screw driver in my eye would hurt like hell. When my brain shuts down for sleep I do not cease to exist. When my brain wakes up from sleep it is not producing another fake conscious being with my memories.

If my brain goes flatline and I am considered to be "dead" ...and minutes or hours later my brain is brought back to life ...it is not rebooting accessing memories and then thereby creating another fake person that thinks it is me.

God is real.

Neither God nor my Soul is "Supernatural" .

It is possible to observe my soul by shutting down my mind or self/ego and see the awareness behind my thoughts.

Awareness permeates the entire Universe.

Awareness when incarnated uses the brain to generate levels of consciousness that the brain could not generate by itself. But this awareness typically creates artificial boundaries and calls these boundaries the "self" . But instead of being my actual self this is just an ego state created by artificial boundaries.

Like an actor exploring these boundaries can create a believable "self" but is still not the real "I". By eliminating these boundaries and not attaching to them I can expand my awareness. This allows me to feel others feeling as I do my own. This is known as being Empathic.

This not supernatural.

Feeling my own feelings is natural and when I am feeling your feelings as my own it is also natural but not always comfortable.

Sometimes I can eliminate all boundaries and experience pure awareness.

This is my understanding of God since I am experiencing the entire Universe's awareness .

Undifferentiated awareness has no sense of time. Love is a real force in reality and is deeper and more powerful then the derivative known as the Oxytocin effect.

Real Love is not a chemical process of the brain.

The Source of all there is ... is not supernatural but is just energy .

This energy is active and aware and generates what is known as Love which goes way deeper then what most people call love.

It has nothing to do with patting you on the back and making you feel special or making promises or deals.

My beliefs may seem absurd to you but I can assure you of two things.

1. They are not supernatural nor they rely on religion on any way
2. They are based on evidence and empirical observation not wishful thinking

There are many things I wish were true about out reality that I have found little or no evidence of ...Including but not limited to

1. I wish that in higher states I knew what death was
2. I wish I was guaranteed to retain all aspects of consciousness including all my memories and a continuous I as I am right now
3. I wish I knew what God was exactly
4. I wish I could remember other lives as more then just dream remnants
5. I wish that I knew when I died that who I am now was guaranteed to exist just as I am now with all memories intact and my self as continuous from life to life just as my self is continuous from each dreaming state to each waking state

I could go on.

But my point is if I simply accepted beliefs based on what I wished I would believe a whole lot more about reality then I actually do.

But instead I am in the same boat as Atheist.

I am a skeptic and even though I have had experiences that prove to me that I am more than my body I devour Atheist literature and love discussing philosophy with Atheist and even consider myself Atheist by most standards.

But being 90% Atheist I can not get to 100 % because I see no way to get there without becoming a Nihilist. I do not avoid Nihilism out of wishful thinking but because to me Nihilism which accepts Philosophical Zombies (Meat Puppets) is just as absurd to me as the Supernatural is to you.

Edited by Spiritual Anarchist, : typo


My Karma Ran Over My Dogma

This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by bluegenes, posted 05-23-2013 2:54 AM bluegenes has not yet responded

  
Spiritual Anarchist
Member (Idle past 1108 days)
Posts: 70
From: Raleigh NC
Joined: 01-27-2013


Message 81 of 82 (700197)
05-31-2013 12:13 AM
Reply to: Message 79 by mrnobody42
05-30-2013 9:54 PM


Re: Dawkins God Delusion
Hello Mrnobody42. I never thanked you for joining this thread and providing another perspective besides Christian vs Atheism. It is nice to see another Buddhist on here..

That being said I am still awaiting your answer to my post about the Nondual


This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by mrnobody42, posted 05-30-2013 9:54 PM mrnobody42 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 82 by mrnobody42, posted 05-31-2013 12:59 AM Spiritual Anarchist has not yet responded

  
mrnobody42
Junior Member (Idle past 1227 days)
Posts: 9
Joined: 02-18-2013


Message 82 of 82 (700200)
05-31-2013 12:59 AM
Reply to: Message 81 by Spiritual Anarchist
05-31-2013 12:13 AM


Re: Dawkins God Delusion
Thanks SA. I assume that the question about the nondual that you are referring to was this one of yours.

"So my question to mrnobody42
is this. How does the Nondual teachings resolve the what appears to be Nihilistic teachings?

So to clarify my question I will word it differently.

How is the Supreme Source different from Pantheism? Also why is the Universe allowed to be aware as a possibility only on the contingency that I am not allowed to be aware... but only "conscious"? "

I answered this question above with the following response...

"The Supreme Source of Reality is Awareness. So, this is not at odds with Pantheism at all. The relationship between The Supreme Source (Undifferentiated Awareness)and its manifestations (individualized Awareness) are like the relationship between Pure Undifferentiated White Light and a Rainbow. So, I guess from a Pantheistic perspective, you could say that the White light is God and the rainbow are all the beings. The One manifesting as many.

As far as the Universal soul or the soul of a human or cat for that matter. Its all Awareness, so neither man nor the universe has a soul. But rather the Soul (Awareness) has a universe and individuals. Remember, cats, men and universes are measurable and subject to causation. The only dynamic in the equation of your life that is not measurable, observable or quantifiable is Awareness. The uncaused cause of all Reality. "


This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by Spiritual Anarchist, posted 05-31-2013 12:13 AM Spiritual Anarchist has not yet responded

    
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