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Author Topic:   Endtime Prophecy and the European Union
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 136 of 313 (700262)
05-31-2013 5:06 PM
Reply to: Message 135 by Theodoric
05-31-2013 4:07 PM


Reformers on Popes as Antichrist
Can you show any of the leaders of the reformation that claimed the Pope was the anti-christ?
Start with one. We will go from there. This requires evidence, not assertion.
It's well known, Theodoric, but here are some references:
Luther: his first statement on Antichrist, but I know there were others later.
But whoever wrote this bull, he is Antichrist...
Woe to all who live in these times. The wrath of God is coming upon the papists, the enemies Of the cross of Christ, that all men should resist them. You then, Leo X, you cardinals and the rest of you at Rome, I tell you to your faces: "If this bull has come out in your name, then I will use the power which has been given me in baptism whereby I became a son of God and co-heir with Christ, established upon the rock against which the gates of hell cannot prevail. I call upon you to renounce your diabolical blasphemy and audacious impiety, and, if you will not, we shall all hold your seat as possessed and oppressed by Satan, the damned seat of Antichrist; in the name of Jesus Christ, whom you persecute.
Wikipedia on Antichrist
(This is clearly written by a Catholic since it refers to "dissidents and heretics" but for the most part the information appears to be correct. It also mentions later, not in the part I quoted, that the futurist interpretation of prophecy was invented by a Roman Catholic in order to deflect the accusation of Antichrist from the Pope. )
Protestant reformers
Many Protestant reformers, including Martin Luther, John Calvin, Thomas Cranmer, John Thomas, John Knox, and Cotton Mather, identified the Roman Papacy as the Antichrist.[33] ...
William Tyndale, an English Protestant reformer, held that while the Roman Catholic realms of that age were the empire of Antichrist, any religious organization that distorted the doctrine of the Old and New Testaments also showed the work of Antichrist. In his treatise The Parable of the Wicked Mammon, he expressly rejected the established Church teaching that looked to the future for an Antichrist to rise up, and he taught that Antichrist is a present spiritual force that will be with us until the end of the age under different religious disguises from time to time.[35]
Reformation Papacy
Lutherans, Reformed, Anabaptists, and Methodists all included references to the Papacy as the Antichrist in their confessions of faith:
ABE: Was just listening to this half-hour discussion of Calvin's views on the Roman Church and the papacy as the Antichrist. If you have the time I think it covers some important points.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : to add the MP3 discussion link

This message is a reply to:
 Message 135 by Theodoric, posted 05-31-2013 4:07 PM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 137 by jar, posted 05-31-2013 5:18 PM Faith has replied
 Message 144 by Theodoric, posted 05-31-2013 10:17 PM Faith has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 137 of 313 (700264)
05-31-2013 5:18 PM
Reply to: Message 136 by Faith
05-31-2013 5:06 PM


Re: Reformers on Popes as Antichrist
Come on now Faith.
If the Pope Luther wrote about was the Antichrist then the Antichrist has been dead and buried for hundreds of years and it is still just more evidence of failed prophecy.
Your very own quotes show that the Antichrist stuff is just nonsense.
Also Luther cannot show a single example of any Pope persecuting Jesus Christ. In fact that would be nothing more than a ludicrous and absurd claim that would make Luther just another demagog of the period.
Oh wait, Luther did become just another demagog.
Edited by jar, : appalin spallin

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 136 by Faith, posted 05-31-2013 5:06 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 138 by Faith, posted 05-31-2013 5:31 PM jar has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 138 of 313 (700272)
05-31-2013 5:31 PM
Reply to: Message 137 by jar
05-31-2013 5:18 PM


Re: Reformers on Popes as Antichrist
Every Pope is an Antichrist, because the Pope claims to occupy the seat of Christ while his teachings deny Christ. There are many lesser antichrists in the world as well, and I'm one who believes that there is yet THE Antichrist to come, the final Antichrist scripture says Jesus will destroy at His second coming. He may be a Pope or like Hitler a wannabe world conquerer who is backed by the Pope, who then would be thought of as the False Prophet.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 137 by jar, posted 05-31-2013 5:18 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 139 by jar, posted 05-31-2013 5:41 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 140 by Dr Adequate, posted 05-31-2013 7:15 PM Faith has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 139 of 313 (700273)
05-31-2013 5:41 PM
Reply to: Message 138 by Faith
05-31-2013 5:31 PM


Re: Reformers on Popes as Antichrist
But that would falsify Revelation anyway. It speaks of the Antichrist as an individual (maybe two individuals).
You also are just once again posting falsehoods. No Pope's teachings have ever denied Christ. To make such a claim is simply absurd and laughable.
We know that you believe such things but that is irrelevant to truth, honesty or reality.
But the important point is once again you simply have not presented a single example of any fulfilled End Time prophecy.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 138 by Faith, posted 05-31-2013 5:31 PM Faith has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 140 of 313 (700277)
05-31-2013 7:15 PM
Reply to: Message 138 by Faith
05-31-2013 5:31 PM


Re: Reformers on Popes as Antichrist
Every Pope is an Antichrist, because the Pope claims to occupy the seat of Christ while his teachings deny Christ. There are many lesser antichrists in the world as well, and I'm one who believes that there is yet THE Antichrist to come, the final Antichrist scripture says Jesus will destroy at His second coming. He may be a Pope or like Hitler a wannabe world conquerer who is backed by the Pope, who then would be thought of as the False Prophet.
So there can be lots of antichrists?
Maybe you're one of them, how would I tell?
But the subject of this thread would be the identification of the Antichrist.
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 138 by Faith, posted 05-31-2013 5:31 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 141 of 313 (700278)
05-31-2013 7:32 PM
Reply to: Message 140 by Dr Adequate
05-31-2013 7:15 PM


Re: Reformers on Popes as Antichrist
Yes the topic has wandered a bit as usual, because of all the questions that come up as aspects of it are discussed. This particular tangent started with a question about whether Rome really is the City on Seven Hills of scripture.
As for the final Antichrist which many of us believe is yet to appear and fairly soon too, nobody knows his identity at this point. It may be this current Pope but although he would certainly have a role to play it may instead be a political leader the Pope supports as Hitler was supported by the Pope in his day. Scripture says that this personality must be revealed and then the Day of the Lord will come. He hasn't yet been revealed.
The thread is also supposed to focus on the European Union, and many of us believe that is the likely arena through which the power of the final Antichrist to be expressed. There are many interesting symbols connected with the EU that relate it to the Book of Revelation, the Harlot Church that rides the beast for instance.
But I've been off on my own subject here and haven't been following the rest of the thread much and probably shouldn't get into that aspect of it at this point at least until I have time to review the thread.
P.S. I just added a link to a discussion about Calvin's views of the papacy to my post to Theodoric above, Message 136. I think it's interesting enough to be worth your time.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 140 by Dr Adequate, posted 05-31-2013 7:15 PM Dr Adequate has not replied

Replies to this message:
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 Message 159 by caffeine, posted 06-04-2013 5:11 AM Faith has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 142 of 313 (700282)
05-31-2013 8:03 PM
Reply to: Message 141 by Faith
05-31-2013 7:32 PM


Re: Reformers on Popes as Antichrist
An even more likely candidate for the City on Seven Hills is Jerusalem.
Faith writes:
There are many interesting symbols connected with the EU that relate it to the Book of Revelation, the Harlot Church that rides the beast for instance.
Too funny.
Just how is the EU related to "the Harlot Church that rides the beast for instance" in any sane, honest, evidenced or even rational way?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 141 by Faith, posted 05-31-2013 7:32 PM Faith has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 143 by NoNukes, posted 05-31-2013 9:25 PM jar has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 143 of 313 (700286)
05-31-2013 9:25 PM
Reply to: Message 142 by jar
05-31-2013 8:03 PM


Re: Reformers on Popes as Antichrist
Pointless. Already said five times
Edited by NoNukes, : Lower the pile...

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ‘That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.’ Galileo Galilei 1615.
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 142 by jar, posted 05-31-2013 8:03 PM jar has not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 144 of 313 (700288)
05-31-2013 10:17 PM
Reply to: Message 136 by Faith
05-31-2013 5:06 PM


Re: Reformers on Popes as Antichrist
Your still a long way from all "reformers". It is not very prudent to speak in absolutes.
Yes a number of the protestant reformers did write about the papacy being manifestation of the anti-christ. But my point is that you can not say that all did. Also, you are missing the subtlety of arguments of the reformers. At least Calvin did not think that the Pope was the antichrist. If you actually read his writings, the views of other "reformers" is similar, you will actually see that he refers to the Roman Catholic church as the kingdom of the anti-christ and well why don't we just use Calvins own words.
quote:
Daniel and Paul foretold that Antichrist would sit in the temple of God (Dan. 9:27; 2 Thess. 2:4); we regard the Roman Pontiff as the leader and standard-bearer of that wicked and abominable kingdom.
From: Institutes of the Christian Religion
(1559 edition; translated by Henry Beveridge, 1845)
(IV, 2, 11)
Though the Pope is the leader of this kingdom he is not the antichrist himself. Cuz, that would be silly. That would mean all popes are the anti-christ. I thought this anti-christ dude was supposed to have some sort of spectacular powers. If Pope Francis is the anti-christ I am going to put my money on the big JC. He is going to kick some satanic ass.
Is it going to be pay-per-view?

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 136 by Faith, posted 05-31-2013 5:06 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 145 by Faith, posted 05-31-2013 10:39 PM Theodoric has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 145 of 313 (700290)
05-31-2013 10:39 PM
Reply to: Message 144 by Theodoric
05-31-2013 10:17 PM


Re: Reformers on Popes as Antichrist
Seems to me you're doing some hairsplitting for no useful purpose. But here's another quote from Calvin:
John Calvin (Presbyterian)
"Some persons think us too severe and censorious when we call the Roman pontiff Antichrist. But those who are of this opinion do not consider that they bring the same charge of presumption against Paul himself, after whom we speak and whose language we adopt... I shall briefly show that (Paul's words in II Thess. 2) are not capable of any other interpretation than that which applies them to the Papacy." Taken from Institutes by John Calvin.
By the way that website has a long list of preachers, before, during and after the Reformation, who regarded the papacy as Antichrist.
The papacy itself was regarded by the Reformers as the Antichrist system and of course each Pope who assumes all the titles and prerogatives, false teachings and so on, of that office, is individually an Antichrist. There were some good Popes, way back there, at least good Bishops of Rome if not yet Popes, but the papacy itself represents the usurpation of the authority of Christ in general.
Really, take a few minutes to listen to the link I posted. in 136, it's interesting.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 147 by PaulGL, posted 06-02-2013 2:45 PM Faith has replied

  
PaulGL
Member (Idle past 3387 days)
Posts: 92
Joined: 04-06-2012


Message 146 of 313 (700359)
06-02-2013 2:42 PM
Reply to: Message 105 by PaulK
05-30-2013 2:08 PM


Re: Europe: land of the antichrist
Where are your cognitive abilities? How do you think that I in any was listed 'falle' as a qualification for being a caesar? There were, of course, more than 5 previous (to John's writing) that can be considered as caesars. But John was only concerned with the five who had died unnatural deaths.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 105 by PaulK, posted 05-30-2013 2:08 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 149 by PaulK, posted 06-02-2013 3:05 PM PaulGL has replied

  
PaulGL
Member (Idle past 3387 days)
Posts: 92
Joined: 04-06-2012


Message 147 of 313 (700360)
06-02-2013 2:45 PM
Reply to: Message 145 by Faith
05-31-2013 10:39 PM


Re: Reformers on Popes as Antichrist
The antichrist will be used by God to utterly destroy catholicism (and all religion) wherever he is in power. He will 'burn her with fire, and kill her children with death'. So please quit wasting time considering the red herring of 'pope is the antichrist.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 145 by Faith, posted 05-31-2013 10:39 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 152 by Faith, posted 06-02-2013 11:13 PM PaulGL has replied

  
PaulGL
Member (Idle past 3387 days)
Posts: 92
Joined: 04-06-2012


Message 148 of 313 (700362)
06-02-2013 2:53 PM
Reply to: Message 105 by PaulK
05-30-2013 2:08 PM


Re: Europe: land of the antichrist
Clarification: Yes, there is one small single-page website which says that Halley's comet was not the star that the wise men followed. But that is not stating the whole truth. There are at least 4 other, much longer and concise in analysis that either say Halley's comet was or could have been the star of the magi. It is unjustifiable to state carte-blanche that Halley's comet was not the star of the magi! Why? Because historians are unsure precisely of the correct dating of the time of our Lord- as I also illustrated about the 4-year shift.
So, let us not pick and choose the opinions that agree with us, but stick only to what we know as fact before making either-or statements.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 105 by PaulK, posted 05-30-2013 2:08 PM PaulK has replied

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PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 149 of 313 (700364)
06-02-2013 3:05 PM
Reply to: Message 146 by PaulGL
06-02-2013 2:42 PM


Re: Europe: land of the antichrist
quote:
Where are your cognitive abilities? How do you think that I in any was listed 'falle' as a qualification for being a caesar? There were, of course, more than 5 previous (to John's writing) that can be considered as caesars. But John was only concerned with the five who had died unnatural deaths.
You manage to answer yourself. Your count of "Caesars" only includes the "fallen". Except that you managed to miss three.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 146 by PaulGL, posted 06-02-2013 2:42 PM PaulGL has replied

Replies to this message:
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PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 150 of 313 (700365)
06-02-2013 3:08 PM
Reply to: Message 148 by PaulGL
06-02-2013 2:53 PM


Re: Europe: land of the antichrist
You're not answering anything I wrote. But for the record the Star is just a legend and doesn't refer to anything that actually happened. Using it to date Jesus' birth cannot work for this reason.
In fact we can't reliably date Jesus' birth at all since the only two writers who give anything datable point to different dates (the author of the Gospel of Matthew points to a birth no later than 4BC, the author of Luke pointing to 6AD).

This message is a reply to:
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