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Author Topic:   Pope Francis allows for Atheism
Tempe 12ft Chicken
Member (Idle past 336 days)
Posts: 438
From: Tempe, Az.
Joined: 10-25-2012


(1)
Message 1 of 62 (700800)
06-07-2013 10:32 AM


In a recent sermon, Pope Francis has taken the lead step in allowing for religion to accept atheists in this world! Atheists, seen by most religions as guaranteed to burn for all eternity, have never cared about condemnation to Hell because there is no evidence that a Hell even exists. However, Pope Francis has taken a huge step toward accepting atheists in this world for who they are. And this is coming from the head of the first Christian church!!!!
Pope Francis writes:
I have come to the conclusion that whether or not a person is a religious believer does not matter much. Far more important is that they be a good human being.
I think that this is a very important sentiment being stated boldly by the leader of more than 1 billion religious individuals. Now, I do not think it is important because I want to get into a heaven (a place I have no reason to trust in the existence of), but rather because it can be an enormous step to bringing different groups together under the ideal of doing good and helping one another, regardless of creed (or lack of creed).
Another benefit that this statement by the Pontiff brings is the ability for individuals, such as myself, to finally reveal who they are to family members whom they did not want to disappoint or sadden. My mother is a devout Catholic and will always remain so. It is because of her strong belief in the Catholic faith and the afterlife that I have been unable to reveal the fact that I no longer believe in any of the myths to her. However, even without changing either of our beliefs, I can now reveal this new truth to her. She can know that this change in belief for me does not preclude me from her heaven should she be right, which was the aspect that would devesate her otherwise.
In fact, the Catholic church quickly issued a statement clarifying Francis' statement. It wanted to ensure that the statement made by Pope Francis did not state that Jesus was not the way to salvation, but rather that Jesus died for all sin.
After the sermon, Father Rosica issued this statement for the Vatican,
Rosica writes:
all salvation comes from Christ, the Head, through the Church which is his body. Hence they cannot be saved who, knowing the Church as founded by Christ and necessary for salvation, would refuse to enter her or remain in her.
See, the funny thing in this statement by Rosica is that it does not remove the meaning from the statement made by Pope Francis. A requirement in the Catholic Cathecism about refusing to enter the church states that one must refuse to enter the church, while in full knowledge that the church is necessary for salvation. As an atheist, I am not in knowledge that the church is required for salvation, a salvation that I do not see any evidence for the existence of. This would mean that all I can possibly do is to do good in the world.
According to the article "The Truth about Pope Francis and Atheists" there is yet another loophole within the Catholic Cathecism:
Truth writes:
A non-Christian may reject a Christian’s presentation of the gospel of Christ. That however, does not necessarily mean that the person has truly rejected Christ and God. Rejection of Christianity may not mean the rejection of Christ. For if a given individual rejects the Christianity brought to him through the Church’s preaching, even then we are still never in any position to decide whether this rejection as it exists in the concrete signifies a grave fault or an act of faithfulness to one’s own conscience. We can never say with ultimate certainty whether a non-Christian who has rejected Christianity and who, in spite of a certain encounter with Christianity, does not become a Christian, is still following the temporary path mapped out for his own salvation which is leading him to an encounter with God, or whether he has now entered upon the way of perdition.
Source
I do not have to trust another individual's opinion on the existence of God, the truth contained in the Gospels, or any other portion of the cathecism of the Christian faith to achieve salvation. Rather, these loopholes leave the openings that are required for the Pope's words to actually ring true and allow Catholics worldwide to accept atheists...Maybe not as brothers and sisters in Christ, but at least as brothers and sisters!
I believe that this is a huge step for a church that has been known in the past for being unyielding, sticklers for exact adhesion to cathecism, and all-around has treated those with differing views with disdain and torture (death as well). The Catholic Church is, for once, on the forefront of accepting individuals for who they are and still, whether or not atheists care about it, offering them salvation without forcing them to relinquish their views.
As an ex-Catholic, I for one applaud Pope Francis for being a man of integrity (so far as we have seen yet) and for understanding that the human condition leads many people to different conclusions and that the first and foremost important thing for any of us to do is good works. After all, wasn't it Jesus who said:
Jesus from Matthew 25:35-43 writes:
For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’
37 Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’
40 The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’
41 Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’

The theory of evolution by cumulative natural selection is the only theory we know of that is in principle capable of explaining the existence of organized complexity. - Richard Dawkins
Creationists make it sound as though a 'theory' is something you dreamt up after being drunk all night. - Issac Asimov
If you removed all the arteries, veins, & capillaries from a person’s body, and tied them end-to-endthe person will die. - Neil Degrasse Tyson
What would Buddha do? Nothing! What does the Buddhist terrorist do? Goes into the middle of the street, takes the gas, *pfft*, Self-Barbecue. The Christian and the Muslim on either side are yelling, "What the Fuck are you doing?" The Buddhist says, "Making you deal with your shit. - Robin Williams

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by Stile, posted 06-07-2013 11:18 AM Tempe 12ft Chicken has replied
 Message 13 by Faith, posted 06-07-2013 5:23 PM Tempe 12ft Chicken has replied
 Message 30 by GDR, posted 06-11-2013 12:15 AM Tempe 12ft Chicken has replied

  
Tempe 12ft Chicken
Member (Idle past 336 days)
Posts: 438
From: Tempe, Az.
Joined: 10-25-2012


(1)
Message 4 of 62 (700803)
06-07-2013 11:13 AM
Reply to: Message 2 by Tangle
06-07-2013 10:54 AM


Agreed on fluidity
Tangle writes:
Well yippee, some bloke says something different to the last bloke.
Yes, this does seem to be a problem with these Popes. Similarly, we had Pope John Paul II who stated in a sermon that evolution was fully compatible with the doctrines of the Catholic Faith. Then, after his death Pope Benedict made the opposite statement during a sermon on Easter. However, I am trying to give them the benefit of the doubt that they may try to remain more progressive. Perhaps they have learned the lessons of the past and that strict adherence to only their viewpoints will tend to alienate or even create animosity toward the church...one can hope at least. Lol.
Tangle writes:
I suppose it's progress of sorts and I''m pleased that you can out yourself to your mum.
Yeah, it is progress, although we will see how long they hold to this viewpoint. I am glad as well. Since giving up all faith, it has been a stone in the pit of my stomach anytime religion is brought up in my parents' household. Knowing that I do not agree or believe and at the same time that saying anything would destroy my mother. Thankfully this paves the way to allow for honestly in the household without crushing someone.
Tangle writes:
Let's hope the next pope doesn't say something different again. It's almost like they're making it up as they go along - sheesh, they'll say that there's no such thing as limbo next.
Wait....which Pope brought back limbo? I mean, purgatory they believe in, but I am pretty sure limbo is still a thing of the past. Although, one never knows.

The theory of evolution by cumulative natural selection is the only theory we know of that is in principle capable of explaining the existence of organized complexity. - Richard Dawkins
Creationists make it sound as though a 'theory' is something you dreamt up after being drunk all night. - Issac Asimov
If you removed all the arteries, veins, & capillaries from a person’s body, and tied them end-to-endthe person will die. - Neil Degrasse Tyson
What would Buddha do? Nothing! What does the Buddhist terrorist do? Goes into the middle of the street, takes the gas, *pfft*, Self-Barbecue. The Christian and the Muslim on either side are yelling, "What the Fuck are you doing?" The Buddhist says, "Making you deal with your shit. - Robin Williams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by Tangle, posted 06-07-2013 10:54 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by Tangle, posted 06-07-2013 11:32 AM Tempe 12ft Chicken has replied

  
Tempe 12ft Chicken
Member (Idle past 336 days)
Posts: 438
From: Tempe, Az.
Joined: 10-25-2012


Message 7 of 62 (700806)
06-07-2013 11:32 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by 1.61803
06-07-2013 11:01 AM


Similar, but not the same
1.numbers writes:
It is sort of the message from Vatican II. Accepting that all people of all religions can recieve grace outside the church.
It has been a point of contention since then I believe.
I do agree it is similar to the statements issued in Vatican II. However, the big part of those statements was that it did not matter wht you believed, as long as you believed in your god with your whole heart, then salvation was available to you. However, Vatican II did not go as far as to say that zero belief in a deity was also acceptable. This statement merely pushes it further out and accepts all individuals, even in the absence of faith. I see this as a good step forward.
As an example, I always see those Coexist stickers on cars. And I began to notice something about them.
First, let's look at one of them:
If you look at this symbol, notice which symbol is missing...
We have
C = Islam
o = Peace
e = Male/Female symbols
x = Judaism
i = Wicca
s = Yin and Yang
t = Christianity
This covers many religions (obviously not all) and there are other versions including one with the E=MC^2 symbol for the e instead of Male/Female symbols. However, in every version I have ever seen, this symbol:
never seems to find its way into this idea of coexistence..I know there is no A in Coexist, but there could be a version that states..oh...I don't know, the word "Acceptance"
Another point to look at is the that Canon law specifies what is required, and interestingly, like all laws, there are loopholes involved.
In the statement by Rosica, the loophole to focus on to allow what the Pope has said is contained in the line:
Rosica writes:
knowing the Church as founded by Christ and necessary for salvation
This was used for Vatican II to allow for all other faiths and this Pope has simply expanded it out by claiming that Atheists would also not know that the Church is necessary.
Again, as an atheist, this statement does nothing to adjust my worldview or to alter my ideas on what is evidenced, and therefore worthy of consideration of its existence. Rather, I find it surprising that the Catholics, those who persecuted others for so long, are somewhat on the forefront of attempting to reduce persecution, even for complete lack of belief.
Edited by Tempe 12ft Chicken, : No reason given.
Edited by Tempe 12ft Chicken, : No reason given.

The theory of evolution by cumulative natural selection is the only theory we know of that is in principle capable of explaining the existence of organized complexity. - Richard Dawkins
Creationists make it sound as though a 'theory' is something you dreamt up after being drunk all night. - Issac Asimov
If you removed all the arteries, veins, & capillaries from a person’s body, and tied them end-to-endthe person will die. - Neil Degrasse Tyson
What would Buddha do? Nothing! What does the Buddhist terrorist do? Goes into the middle of the street, takes the gas, *pfft*, Self-Barbecue. The Christian and the Muslim on either side are yelling, "What the Fuck are you doing?" The Buddhist says, "Making you deal with your shit. - Robin Williams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by 1.61803, posted 06-07-2013 11:01 AM 1.61803 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by 1.61803, posted 06-11-2013 10:52 AM Tempe 12ft Chicken has replied

  
Tempe 12ft Chicken
Member (Idle past 336 days)
Posts: 438
From: Tempe, Az.
Joined: 10-25-2012


Message 8 of 62 (700807)
06-07-2013 11:37 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by Tangle
06-07-2013 11:32 AM


Re: Agreed on fluidity
No, I actually do find that very interesting. I was a youth leader for the church for 9 years (ending in 2006) and we were specifically told to not teach limbo as an actual thing. According to my instructions for questions on this topic, I was told to inform them that Jesus did die for all sins and that infants who passed before baptism would receive the forgiveness through the death of Jesus. Interesting that we were told to teach that prior to the official change in Catholic Doctrine.
Yeah, and that is hilarious that they still push the emergency baptisms, even though they specifically state there is no danger of eternal nothingness without receiving this sacrament according to Catholic doctrine now.

The theory of evolution by cumulative natural selection is the only theory we know of that is in principle capable of explaining the existence of organized complexity. - Richard Dawkins
Creationists make it sound as though a 'theory' is something you dreamt up after being drunk all night. - Issac Asimov
If you removed all the arteries, veins, & capillaries from a person’s body, and tied them end-to-endthe person will die. - Neil Degrasse Tyson
What would Buddha do? Nothing! What does the Buddhist terrorist do? Goes into the middle of the street, takes the gas, *pfft*, Self-Barbecue. The Christian and the Muslim on either side are yelling, "What the Fuck are you doing?" The Buddhist says, "Making you deal with your shit. - Robin Williams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Tangle, posted 06-07-2013 11:32 AM Tangle has not replied

  
Tempe 12ft Chicken
Member (Idle past 336 days)
Posts: 438
From: Tempe, Az.
Joined: 10-25-2012


(1)
Message 9 of 62 (700808)
06-07-2013 11:55 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by Stile
06-07-2013 11:18 AM


Re: Meh
Stile writes:
At first I was all "well, isn't that nice... this Pope Francis sounds like a pretty decent dude. Yay 'n stuff."
Well, aside from just this aspect, there have been a few news stories since his election as Pope that make me think Francis may make some decent changes within the Catholic Church. Things such as going out into Rome and washing the feet of the homeless, refusing the Papal car back to the Vatican and opting to take a bus instead, and refusing to accept the offer of a free room from the hotel he stayed in the night after the conclave (he refused and ensured that the hotel was paid for his accommodations). It just seems like he might be lacking the hubris that Popes normally have, although I could definitely be proven wrong.
Stile writes:
Is it really "nice"? Or is it just normal?
I think it's really just not-being-a-douchebag.
You are correct. It is nice, but also it should be considered simply normal. However, something normal and accepting coming out of the Vatican is a breath of fresh air. I would prefer more normal views to be espoused by this organization. The point remains that it must begin one step at a time, and I think this Pope may (I emphasize may) be the one to start bringing some of those changes
Stile writes:
They still have problems with other opinions that simply differ from their own. Like the gay stuff.
They do still have problems with things and I am not suggesting we let them off the hook on the rest of their outdated ideas. But, we should give credit when they take an idea that has been outdated for a long time and completely remove it. Not credit in the sense of "Good Job!" But rather credit in the form of "Good start, now keep fixing the other problems."
Which is exactly the same sentiment I believe you are aiming for with this statement:
Stile writes:
Yay Catholics! You're almost not-a-douchebag! If you keep going in this direction, one day you'll move up to the moral status of Average Human Being!
Stile writes:
Admiring the Catholic Church for this move is like congratulating the school bully for not stuffing someone in a locker.
Agreed, it is similar. The thing is that we have to allow these institutions an opportunity to adjust and change, especially when they begin to show they are willing to, just like we should with the bully. If the bully shoves someone in a locker everyday for three years, and then does not one day, perhaps that behavior and that change can be continued on if people acknowledge that the change has happened. Not saying that you give them (or the bully) a free pass, but rather that we (unlike what the Catholic church has done for many years in the past) offer them a chance to prove their sincerity in this change.
Let us see what other things this Pope has up his sleeve. The rest of his decisions could be either all good, all bad, or a combination, but at least he is starting his Papacy on a good foot.
Edited by Tempe 12ft Chicken, : No reason given.

The theory of evolution by cumulative natural selection is the only theory we know of that is in principle capable of explaining the existence of organized complexity. - Richard Dawkins
Creationists make it sound as though a 'theory' is something you dreamt up after being drunk all night. - Issac Asimov
If you removed all the arteries, veins, & capillaries from a person’s body, and tied them end-to-endthe person will die. - Neil Degrasse Tyson
What would Buddha do? Nothing! What does the Buddhist terrorist do? Goes into the middle of the street, takes the gas, *pfft*, Self-Barbecue. The Christian and the Muslim on either side are yelling, "What the Fuck are you doing?" The Buddhist says, "Making you deal with your shit. - Robin Williams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Stile, posted 06-07-2013 11:18 AM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by Stile, posted 06-07-2013 3:27 PM Tempe 12ft Chicken has not replied

  
Tempe 12ft Chicken
Member (Idle past 336 days)
Posts: 438
From: Tempe, Az.
Joined: 10-25-2012


(1)
Message 14 of 62 (700831)
06-07-2013 6:00 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by Faith
06-07-2013 5:23 PM


Thanks
Faithh writes:
I sympathize with you in your complicated position with your family but I also sympathize with your Catholic family. I feel sorry for sincere Catholics who haven't a clue about the real meaning of the machinations of the Vatican.
Hey Faith, while you and I rarely agree on discussions on this board, I do thank you for your sympathy. It is difficult to try and avoid the topic of religion around my house, especially considering my family saw me during my extreme participation days when I was at the church five days a week practicing for choir, writing skits, making videos, creating lessons and the like. I get why you sympathize for them as well, although I do not agree with your reasons for doing so.
Faith writes:
My take on Pope Francis is just that this is the latest in Rome's "ecumenical" moves to bring every human being under the power of Rome. They have no shame and no integrity, they'll say whatever they think furthers their standing in the world. Pope John Paul included all the pagan religions, now Francis is including atheists. They've either absorbed or turned a blind eye to many a tribal shamanistic religion, they tolerate voodoo for instance. Now atheists. Who's left?
Accepting one another for who they are should be paramount in our lives, because we should never expect other individuals to adjust who they are for our sake or benefit (or even for what we think would be their benefit). This is why I applaud the move by Pope Francis. He did not state that Atheists are saved once they turn back toward Christianity. Rather, that atheists can live their lives of nonbelief, they should simply try to do so with good deeds and helpfulness for their fellow humans.
At this time in this world we have already seen more than enough evidence that trying to separate individuals through their beliefs or nonbeliefs leads to large amounts of violence. We see the foreign terrorists committing suicide bombings, the domestic terrorists bombing abortion clinics, and even war based solely on ideological reasons. Do we really need to keep warring with each other?
The way I see it, you are always against the Vatican, so why not talk to the Catholics in the trenches (regular Catholics)? Get them to appreciate and like who for you are, not by attacking their faith, but by trying to understand it from their perspective. Don't confront them and tell them their leaders are evil, but confront them with kindness, love and understanding. Perhaps then, if you are right (which I still doubt) these everyday Catholics will most likely not join with the leaders should they attempt to bring about another murdering inquisition.
Faith writes:
On one hand they'll say oh everybody is saved but then on the other you can find them asserting that there is no salvation outside the RCC.
I am guessing that you are referring to the anathemas, but please correct me if I am wrong. If so, well then all one needs to do is look to the massive amounts of loopholes that are listed in the cathecism to realize they did not really safeguard heaven against anyone. Lol. I pointed out the part in the cathecism that states that an individual must have an understanding that the Catholic Church is the correct way and still deny it for that to be held against the individual. There are countless loopholes in there that allow for every religion under the sun to be saved...including Protestants even with the anathema.
Faith writes:
It certainly furthers that wish when atheists think such a strategic wolfish move is progress.
I do not see this as a wolfish move and I wish that other Christians would be willing to do something similar. You will not change my mind without verifiable, repeatable evidence of a deity. It will not happen. So, personally, as an individual and a fellow human being, I would rather that you just accept that I came to my viewpoint through reason and that I am happy with the decision I made. This is exactly what the Pope has done. He is not asking me to change. Were he to do so, I would have laughed about this announcement and considered it the same problem being rehashed.
As far as it being progress, we currently live in a world where people place atheists as the equivalent of rapists in their view of them. Seriously!?!?! Atheists are equal to rapists?
Source
These are the types of insulting views that many religious people have about atheists, simply due to their lack of belief. Personally, I did not leave the church because I wanted to sin, but rather for rational reasons that told me that this cannot possibly be true with all the evidence that we have found to this point. I am not saying it is not possible, only that it is not probable. I still believe fully that every human being, every animal, every organism that we can find deserves to be treated with kindness and respect. Yet, according to a majority of people, I am just as bad to have around as a rapist...
...Now, flip sides on this and imagine that a majority of people put "True Bible Believers" on par with rapists. Would you be pleased to hear that the leader of one of the largest groups against you has informed his congregation to not only allow you to have your belief, but that you would not be damned for holding that belief? A situation you never thought was possible? Put another way, how would you feel if Pope Francis came out and removed the anathemas from all Protestants? Would you applaud that move? If so, then perhaps you can understand why I applaud his acceptance of my nonbelief.

The theory of evolution by cumulative natural selection is the only theory we know of that is in principle capable of explaining the existence of organized complexity. - Richard Dawkins
Creationists make it sound as though a 'theory' is something you dreamt up after being drunk all night. - Issac Asimov
If you removed all the arteries, veins, & capillaries from a person’s body, and tied them end-to-endthe person will die. - Neil Degrasse Tyson
What would Buddha do? Nothing! What does the Buddhist terrorist do? Goes into the middle of the street, takes the gas, *pfft*, Self-Barbecue. The Christian and the Muslim on either side are yelling, "What the Fuck are you doing?" The Buddhist says, "Making you deal with your shit. - Robin Williams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by Faith, posted 06-07-2013 5:23 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by Faith, posted 06-07-2013 6:27 PM Tempe 12ft Chicken has not replied

  
Tempe 12ft Chicken
Member (Idle past 336 days)
Posts: 438
From: Tempe, Az.
Joined: 10-25-2012


(2)
Message 38 of 62 (701103)
06-11-2013 4:47 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by 1.61803
06-11-2013 10:52 AM


Re: Similar, but not the same
1.numbers writes:
While it is true Hitler was Catholic until his death, and that the Church never condemned him publicly your suggestion that Hitler commited his "final solution" the extermination of the Jew in the name of Catholcism needs to be supported by evidence and facts.
See, I have heard Hitler's religion debated many times and it generally swings through three areas (one is a non-religion), Catholicism, Protestantism, and atheism. From much of what I read, it states that Hitler was born a Catholic, but that when he attempted to reduce the Jewish elements in the biblical tale, he was far more toward the Protestant side.
His father being a skeptic probably led somewhat to Hitler's denial of many of the doctrines of the faiths he claimed to espouse. Wiki has a great example of his disbelief with a quote from his confirmation sponser, who said:
Hitler's Confirmation Sponser writes:
he nearly had to "drag the words out of him... almost as though the whole confirmation was repugnant to him"".
It seems far more likely, that while he may have died never officially denying his Catholicism, he left those views well back in his past. However, as to the Catholic Church assisting him and Martin Luther's writings (along with "The Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion" by Mathieu Golovinski) being used as propaganda, those are definitely true statements. It seems that for Hitler, religion was very unimportant when compared to the political gains that he could get by using religion. In fact, in Mein Kampf Hitler specifically states that he does not care who wins the war between Catholics and Protestants (not exactly the sentiment of a card-carrying Catholic).
From Mein Kampf:
Hitler writes:
For the future of the world, however, it does not matter which of the two triumphs over the other, the Catholic or the Protestant. But it does matter whether Aryan humanity survives or perishes.
1.numbers writes:
I have been a Cathlolic my whole life. But am now what I concider a "ethnic Catholic" Meaning I was born and raised in a devote Catholic home and all I ever knew growing up was that.
This is very close to what I had as well. Although, thankfully I had some leaders who also showed me the tenants of other faiths. I took one trip to the Thai Buddhist Temple with the youth leaders for the Thai New Year, I spent a day talking to Greek Orthodox Monks at their monastery, and we would try and do events with the churches of the Protestant sects in the area to create kinship. So, I did get some insight into the other faiths as well.
1.numbers writes:
Now that I no longer believe in some of the main tennents of the faith I no longer attend mass. But still am interested in what the church has to say.
I agree fully with being interested in what the Church has to say. As an ex-Catholic, I am well aware of the atrocities that have been committed by the Church I was raised in. I would like nothing more than for the Catholic Church to continue (such as this statement about atheists) to revise its stances which have become antiquated (I know they were not good ideas to begin with, but I am giving them the benefit of the worldviews at the time by simply calling them antiquated). The amount of people that can be reached and affected by good decisions made within the Vatican is enormous. Imagine the instant push that marriage equality would receive worldwide if the Catholic Church informed its congregations that the Church's stance on that has changed.
I do attend mass, but only three days a year and for my mother. Now that I have outed myself for being athiest, I still told her I would go those three days, just simply that I would not take communion as it would be hypocritical to say Amen to the Eucharistic Minister after they say "Body of Christ". It would be wrong for me to state that I believe that, so no more wafer for me.
1.numbers writes:
I mean it was several years ago that Pope John Paul said that it now is acceptable for Catholics to believe in extra terrestrials and the possibilty of life on other planets.
And Pope John Paul also informed Catholics worldwide that there was no conflict between evolution and religion. Slowly, inexorably it seems that the Church is coming out of the fog they have resided in for 2,000 years. I think this can be explained by three different things. The first is simply that all of humanity's values have changed a lot throughout the years. Secondly, the Church has been caught being blatantly wrong so many times in the past that perhaps there is more need to be an example of not adhering to known false ideas (This excludes ideas that are solely based on faith, such as heaven, a soul, God). Finally, the declining in the numbers of parishoners has probably forced the Church to reexamine the ways it has gone about its mission throughout the years. This reexamination could have the effect of the Church noticing that when it dug in its heels is when it hurt the most people.
Religious Views of Adolf Hitler Wiki
Edited by Tempe 12ft Chicken, : Wiki Source

The theory of evolution by cumulative natural selection is the only theory we know of that is in principle capable of explaining the existence of organized complexity. - Richard Dawkins
Creationists make it sound as though a 'theory' is something you dreamt up after being drunk all night. - Issac Asimov
If you removed all the arteries, veins, & capillaries from a person’s body, and tied them end-to-endthe person will die. - Neil Degrasse Tyson
What would Buddha do? Nothing! What does the Buddhist terrorist do? Goes into the middle of the street, takes the gas, *pfft*, Self-Barbecue. The Christian and the Muslim on either side are yelling, "What the Fuck are you doing?" The Buddhist says, "Making you deal with your shit. - Robin Williams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by 1.61803, posted 06-11-2013 10:52 AM 1.61803 has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by Faith, posted 06-11-2013 4:58 PM Tempe 12ft Chicken has not replied

  
Tempe 12ft Chicken
Member (Idle past 336 days)
Posts: 438
From: Tempe, Az.
Joined: 10-25-2012


Message 41 of 62 (701106)
06-11-2013 5:19 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by Faith
06-11-2013 4:50 PM


Re: The Ultimate Power Play
It appears that the first section is simply laying out the similarities in the heirarchal structures of the two different organizations, and how these structures are more able to control people. When he uses the lines:
Hitler, via Paris writes:
. I transferred much of this organisation into my own party... I am going to let you in on a secret... I am founding an Order...
So, he is not founding a Jesuit order, but rather the Nazi order, founded upon the heirarchal structure employed by the CAtholic Church.
And then:
Paris writes:
Their regulations and the Spiritual Exercises prescribed by Ignatius of Loyola were the model Himmler tried to copy exactly... The "Reichsfuhrer SS"Himmler's title as supreme chief of the SSwas to be the equivalent of the Jesuits' "General" and the whole structure of the direction was a close imitation of the Catholic Church's hierarchical order.
So, Himmler required similar regulations and took an equivalent title to the leader of the Jesuits. This does not make them Jesuit monks, just individuals who have ttaken some ideas. They saw that the Catholic Church was able to force order and so wanted this exact control for themselves.
Paris writes:
The right the Church arrogates herself to exterminate slowly or speedily those who are in the way was "put into practice" at Auschwitz, Dachau, Belsen, Buchenwald, and other death camps.
This is simply an emotive line that forces the comparison that the Church and the Nazis are equal. However, it does not state that the Church had an active role in the holocaust. Rather, that the Nazis used the system that had been seen in use by the Catholic Church for centuries (remember, I do not deny the evils of the Inquisition or Crusades either) to control, decimate and rule.
Then, Paris has this statement from Pious XII, which anyone reading can tell is a lie (not by Paris, but by Pious):
Pious XII via Paris writes:
We knew that, for political reasons, violent persecutions were taking place in Germany, but We were never informed as to the inhuman character of the Nazi repression
Really, Pope Pious....you had no idea that Italy's allies were decimating an entire segment of the population in the cruelest ways possible? I don't, nor do I think anyone would have bought that as truth, even at the time. The Catholic Church is definitely guilty of turning a blind eye to the treatment of the Jews (and I am sure they did not try really hard to hide Jews from Nazis.
However, neither did many of the German people, the Polish people or other occupied countries. All of these people were turning a blind eye to the plight of the Jews, not just the Catholics. The Protestants in countries could have done something, or the Catholics in these countries. But these people were propagandized, forced to witness a viewpoint until you began to accept it as true. And the Christian religion (both Catholic and Protestant) makes it too easy to hate Jewish people with the right propaganda. Why? Because it allows vengeance on a group that these views already state killed their savior.
I hold everyone in that time responsible for it, but I put the bulk of the blame squarely where it belongs. Not on Martin Luther's writings, not on the Catholic Church, not on Protestants in Germany, not on The Learned Elders of Zion tract...
...But most of the blame goes where it belongs, on THE NAZI PARTY, the group who used dishonesty, lies, deceit and fear to control a group of people and force them to accept bigoted views that would ultimately cause the deaths of millions. The bulk of blame goes to them and is well deserved.

The theory of evolution by cumulative natural selection is the only theory we know of that is in principle capable of explaining the existence of organized complexity. - Richard Dawkins
Creationists make it sound as though a 'theory' is something you dreamt up after being drunk all night. - Issac Asimov
If you removed all the arteries, veins, & capillaries from a person’s body, and tied them end-to-endthe person will die. - Neil Degrasse Tyson
What would Buddha do? Nothing! What does the Buddhist terrorist do? Goes into the middle of the street, takes the gas, *pfft*, Self-Barbecue. The Christian and the Muslim on either side are yelling, "What the Fuck are you doing?" The Buddhist says, "Making you deal with your shit. - Robin Williams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by Faith, posted 06-11-2013 4:50 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by Faith, posted 06-11-2013 6:52 PM Tempe 12ft Chicken has not replied

  
Tempe 12ft Chicken
Member (Idle past 336 days)
Posts: 438
From: Tempe, Az.
Joined: 10-25-2012


(1)
Message 49 of 62 (701170)
06-12-2013 3:52 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by Faith
06-12-2013 2:27 AM


Re: The Ultimate Power Play
Faith writes:
I don't know whether to laugh or cry at this, doing a little of both. That was my POINT, Taq, all that business about control doesn't BELONG in Christianity, has nothing to DO with true Christianity. Just think about Jesus Himself.
No, it doesn't have anything to do with Christianity, as you see it. However, the rest of us are not wearing blinders and do realize that religion is a means to control people, whether it be through behavior modification, demanding monetary tithing, or control over political decisions within a nation-state. All religions have always been about control. Some were just better at it. But this is historical fact and does not have anything to do with the current affairs in the church. Even the Catholic Church, an organization known for centuries to be able to control its congregation, has been forced to realize that it no longer has the same amount of control and must find a new way, which is what I think this new Pope is doing. Relinquishing control mechanisms and offering peaceful cohabitation with all peoples, even those who don't believe at all.
Faith writes:
The Inquisition was a gross evil travesty of Christianity which in fact murdered millions of TRUE Christians.
Hundreds of thousands actually, but still not a good thing. Religion is constantly used as an excuse for the destruction of people. It was used by the Protestants in Northern Ireland to subjugate the Catholics in Ireland for hundreds of years, leading to the Irish Holocaust as they took viable food away leaving only potatoes (which went bad) for the Irish Catholics. So, we see that control is a means exploited by both groups to get what they want. Is stealing food from those who are starving a Christian value? Is not allowing Catholics to own property or have a political voice Christian? Or.....is it a means of controlling a population. This was done by the Protestants...so, yes, they also control people.
Faith writes:
And my point of course is that the craving for power and control comes from where? FROM THE ROMAN CHURCH. From the Jesuit order in spades. It is NOT in Protestantism. So if Hitler and his cohorts, many of whom were also Catholics, found various RCC models of use to their aim of world domination, that's about CATHOLICISM, not Christianity.
It did come from the RCC, but what you are missing is why. If you wanted to control and enslave the minds of people, whose advice would you take?
A. A group that attempts to control but whenever differences are found fractures into even smaller groups (Protestants)
or
B. A group that attempts to control, maintains control, when it loses control utilizes fear to regain the control (Catholics
The Nazi leaders were not stupid and determined that the Catholic set up was more applicable to the situation they wanted to embrace. Also, you keep trying to deny Luther's influence because he is, as you say, a True Christian. However, please read about what happened on Crystal Night, and then read the suggestions for treating the Jews in Luther's "On the Jews and their Lies". Crystal Night, the beginning of the Holocaust, was nearly identical to the ideas set forth in Martin Luther's book. Did the Nazis go further later, yes, but the original idea is straight out of Luther's writings.
I am not arguing that these ideas of control are Christian (which includes Catholics, no matter what you say), but rather that in order to maintain Christianity, it requires that you control the hearts and minds of people. Why was the Catholic Church so anti-science through the Dark Ages? Why are the Protestant Churches so anti-science now? Because the more people learn the less control of their minds they are giving to the churches.
Faith writes:
Boy have I failed to get across my message to you. What do you think I've been talking about? The influence of the NONChristian, in fact Antichristian, Roman Catholic Church which CALLS itself Christian to the confusion of the whole world. My point to Tempe was to appeal to his sense of what Christianity SHOULD be based on the Bible and Jesus Christ but maybe he'll miss the point too, I guess I'll find out. With that in mind it OUGHT to be very odd to anyone that the Nazis got so much of their methods from "religion." Again, the point is that Catholic religion is NOT Christianity, it's into power and control and world domination, the complete opposite of true Christianity.
You have yet to give me any unbiased evidence that the Catholic Church is not Christian. All you have given is your personal opinion and some books written by individuals who have an agenda against the Catholic Church. Find me some writings by an atheist that states this, or by a Jewish individual, or by a Muslim. The individuals you are quoting have too much to lose by this theory and must cling to it desperately. I see the control levels in both Protestantism and Catholicism.
Should Christianity really be based on the Bible and what it says? Or are you really saying that Christianity should be based on the Bible and what you (and those who agree with you) claim it says? I think that Christianity SHOULD be based on two things and nothing else. Since you are desperate to believe in a God, the first thing is "You should love the Lord your God with all your heart". And the second thing is "Love your neighbor as yourself". That is all Christianity SHOULD be based on. However, you can put shit in one hand and wishes in the other and see which one fills up first. I don't look at how things SHOULD be, but rather how they are and that means that Catholics are Christians.
As for the Nazi ideas coming from Christianity, it only makes sense. These are groups well known for controlling hearts and minds, both Catholics and Protestants. I mean for Buddha's sake, how can you say Protestants don't control people's minds when you personally hand wave away evidence because it doesn't conform to your worldview. I'm pretty sure they have a good grip on your mind and it shows.
Faith writes:
{NECESSARY CAVEAT: I am NOT talking about everyday Catholics, some of whom really do love Jesus and try to live the true Christian life. When sincere Catholics find out about what goes on in the Vatican they are just as appalled as I am. I did list some Catholic writers back there who have called the Vatican on their evil ways, such as Lord Acton, Malachi Martin, Peter DeRosa, and sundry ex-Jesuits.}
I know you are not referring to individual Catholics. Just as I am not referring to individual Protestants. It is harder to see the level of control in the Protestant churches because of the amount of fracturing that has taken place throughout that movement. However, once a group has a grip....you see power and control take over the congregation. Such as......
.....The Protestant (Seventh Day Adventists) Branch Davidians!!! Pretty sure Koresh had some mad control going on there.
Faith writes:
I'm TRYING to correct that view in my posts, but I'm seeing that it's harder than I would have thought.
It is harder than you thought because you want to hand wave away the evidence against the Christians who are not Catholics. You want to blame the 400-odd deaths caused by the IRA during The Troubles on the Catholics, but you are not holding the Protestants responsible for the millions killed during the Irish Holocaust. It is definitely going to be difficult when you are relying on incomplete data.

The theory of evolution by cumulative natural selection is the only theory we know of that is in principle capable of explaining the existence of organized complexity. - Richard Dawkins
Creationists make it sound as though a 'theory' is something you dreamt up after being drunk all night. - Issac Asimov
If you removed all the arteries, veins, & capillaries from a person’s body, and tied them end-to-endthe person will die. - Neil Degrasse Tyson
What would Buddha do? Nothing! What does the Buddhist terrorist do? Goes into the middle of the street, takes the gas, *pfft*, Self-Barbecue. The Christian and the Muslim on either side are yelling, "What the Fuck are you doing?" The Buddhist says, "Making you deal with your shit. - Robin Williams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by Faith, posted 06-12-2013 2:27 AM Faith has not replied

  
Tempe 12ft Chicken
Member (Idle past 336 days)
Posts: 438
From: Tempe, Az.
Joined: 10-25-2012


Message 50 of 62 (701173)
06-12-2013 3:56 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by GDR
06-11-2013 12:15 AM


Re: It's in the Book.
GDR writes:
The Pope simply brought the church in line with what the Bible actually says.
Agreed, but the fact that this sentiment came from the Holy See is what makes the difference. I have heard Priests and other members of the church state that Atheists can get to their heaven. The amazing part of this, at least to me, is that it finally came from the highest office in the Church.
Disclaimer - I still do not trust that there is any evidence their heaven exists, I just like the concept of people accepting one another for who they are and not requiring them to toe the line.

The theory of evolution by cumulative natural selection is the only theory we know of that is in principle capable of explaining the existence of organized complexity. - Richard Dawkins
Creationists make it sound as though a 'theory' is something you dreamt up after being drunk all night. - Issac Asimov
If you removed all the arteries, veins, & capillaries from a person’s body, and tied them end-to-endthe person will die. - Neil Degrasse Tyson
What would Buddha do? Nothing! What does the Buddhist terrorist do? Goes into the middle of the street, takes the gas, *pfft*, Self-Barbecue. The Christian and the Muslim on either side are yelling, "What the Fuck are you doing?" The Buddhist says, "Making you deal with your shit. - Robin Williams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by GDR, posted 06-11-2013 12:15 AM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by GDR, posted 06-12-2013 4:53 PM Tempe 12ft Chicken has not replied

  
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