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Author Topic:   Treason
Rahvin
Member (Idle past 1135 days)
Posts: 3964
Joined: 07-01-2005


(1)
Message 31 of 46 (701756)
06-25-2013 6:12 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by Taq
06-25-2013 5:53 PM


Who elected them?

An electorate devoid of better choices and faced with hopelessly gerrymandered districts such that the two "real" parties are virtually invulnerable to any upstart alternative party.

The American political machine has created an extremely effective system of self-preservation. You know this. Virtually everyone knows this, unless he or she is an utter fool. Representatives who are not Republicans or Democrats are exceptionally rare and weild effectively zero power. While the Republicans and the Democrats hold different views on such topics as "abortion" and other emotional hot-buttons to maintain the facade of "choice," on a great many important issues they completely agree. For instance, on the NSA - rare is the Democrat or the Republican politician who is actually willing to undo legislation like the USA PATRIOT Act. Most politicians from both parties refer to "whistleblowers" immediately as "traitors."

Odd, when they cannot seem to agree on any other single issue, they all seem to agree on that which retains power that each party might enjoy using.

If they are violation of constitutional rights then bring it in front of the courts.

A few class action suits have already sprung up. Previous to the actions of Snowden, however, it was impossible to do so. Perhaps you don;t understand the concept of "standing." Allow me to explain.

In order to sue the NSA and challenge their warrantless collection of information or indeed any other single policy, I must first prove that I have "standing" to challenge those policies. To prove I have "Standing," I must show that I have been personally affected - for instance, I must show that I, personally, have been surveiled by the NSA.

Even today, after the leaks, it would be impossible for me to determine if I personally have been a victim of the NSA (even if it's extremely likely that they have data collected from me; the relevant portion to the court would be the mere 49% chance that any given communication viewed by the NSA without warrant was domestic and not foreign - hardly sufficient to prove that I am a victim).

It would appear that you are oversimplifying the issues at hand in order to blame the electorate for the abuses of their elected leaders. But you and I and anyone else who is not a complete fool knows that much-vaunted democracy bears many flaws, of which these latest scandals are merely a single example. The electorate may bear a degree of blame, certainly...but faced with politicians like Obama who campaign promising to undo exactly what he expanded, and a generations-in-the-making political machine engineered toward self-preservation and the status quo with gradually ever-increasing power grabs...I think it's more than fair to say that a large portion of the problem is the system itself.


The human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion (either as being the received opinion or as being agreeable to itself) draws all things else to support and agree with it. - Francis Bacon

"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers

A world that can be explained even with bad reasons is a familiar world. But, on the other hand, in a universe suddenly divested of illusions and lights, man feels an alien, a stranger. His exile is without remedy since he is deprived of the memory of a lost home or the hope of a promised land. This divorce between man and his life, the actor and his setting, is properly the feeling of absurdity. Albert Camus

"...the pious hope that by combining numerous little turds of variously tainted data, one can obtain a valuable result; but in fact, the outcome is merely a larger than average pile of shit." - Barash, David 1995...

"Many that live deserve death. And some die that deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then be not too eager to deal out death in the name of justice, fearing for your own safety. Even the wise cannot see all ends." - Gandalf, J. R. R. Tolkien: The Lord Of the Rings


This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by Taq, posted 06-25-2013 5:53 PM Taq has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by jar, posted 06-25-2013 6:32 PM Rahvin has responded
 Message 35 by Taq, posted 06-26-2013 11:18 AM Rahvin has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30934
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 32 of 46 (701758)
06-25-2013 6:32 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by Rahvin
06-25-2013 6:12 PM


But we did it.
But it is the US electorate that allowed all those things, elected those representatives, promoted all those things.

The fact is that the US electorate is ********, incapable of reason, uninterested and pretty ******.

If there are problems they are problems we created.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by Rahvin, posted 06-25-2013 6:12 PM Rahvin has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by Rahvin, posted 06-25-2013 6:48 PM jar has responded

  
Rahvin
Member (Idle past 1135 days)
Posts: 3964
Joined: 07-01-2005


Message 33 of 46 (701760)
06-25-2013 6:48 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by jar
06-25-2013 6:32 PM


Re: But we did it.
But it is the US electorate that allowed all those things, elected those representatives, promoted all those things.

The fact is that the US electorate is ********, incapable of reason, uninterested and pretty ******.

If there are problems they are problems we created.

Instead of pretending we're on twitter and limiting you4rself to saying "I disagree," perhaps you could perhaps address what I actually said rather than simply asserting that the blame still rests on the electorate.

You haven't provided any form of argument or discussion. I said "the electorate cannot be wholly held to blame and avenues for the electorate to remedy the situation are few," and you simply said "yeah but the electorate did it. Also they're dumb."

Perhaps, if you feel I am wrong, you should explain why. It would make it much easier to hold a debate if you were to do so.

Failing that, and of far more interest to me, if you have something actually useful to say, like perhaps an actually practical method by which these problems can be undone, please share.


The human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion (either as being the received opinion or as being agreeable to itself) draws all things else to support and agree with it. - Francis Bacon

"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers

A world that can be explained even with bad reasons is a familiar world. But, on the other hand, in a universe suddenly divested of illusions and lights, man feels an alien, a stranger. His exile is without remedy since he is deprived of the memory of a lost home or the hope of a promised land. This divorce between man and his life, the actor and his setting, is properly the feeling of absurdity. Albert Camus

"...the pious hope that by combining numerous little turds of variously tainted data, one can obtain a valuable result; but in fact, the outcome is merely a larger than average pile of shit." - Barash, David 1995...

"Many that live deserve death. And some die that deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then be not too eager to deal out death in the name of justice, fearing for your own safety. Even the wise cannot see all ends." - Gandalf, J. R. R. Tolkien: The Lord Of the Rings


This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by jar, posted 06-25-2013 6:32 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by jar, posted 06-25-2013 7:12 PM Rahvin has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30934
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.3


(1)
Message 34 of 46 (701762)
06-25-2013 7:12 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by Rahvin
06-25-2013 6:48 PM


Re: But we did it and I think it is unlikely it can be fixed.
If you actually read what I post, I doubt you will find I said "I disagree."

Of course the electorate can and should held wholly to blame. They did it. No one else did it.

And yup, the avenues to correct things are not few, there are almost none.

Until the SCOTUS turns over I see no hope.

Until corporations are frozen out of lobbying, influence, funding elections we are screwed. And that is unlikely to change until the SCOTUS is totally rebuilt with a clear liberal/progressive majority.

That's tough.

Gonna be a bunch of folk suffering.

Gonna be a bunch of folk being disappeared.

But that's what the folk wanted. Well that and WWE and MMA.

Edited by jar, : Remove edits done by kitten

Edited by jar, : No reason given.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by Rahvin, posted 06-25-2013 6:48 PM Rahvin has not yet responded

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 7592
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.4


(1)
Message 35 of 46 (701792)
06-26-2013 11:18 AM
Reply to: Message 31 by Rahvin
06-25-2013 6:12 PM


An electorate devoid of better choices and faced with hopelessly gerrymandered districts such that the two "real" parties are virtually invulnerable to any upstart alternative party.

I think the Tea Party movement has shown this to be false. Movements can still happen, even within parties.

The American political machine has created an extremely effective system of self-preservation. You know this. Virtually everyone knows this, unless he or she is an utter fool. Representatives who are not Republicans or Democrats are exceptionally rare and weild effectively zero power. While the Republicans and the Democrats hold different views on such topics as "abortion" and other emotional hot-buttons to maintain the facade of "choice," on a great many important issues they completely agree. For instance, on the NSA - rare is the Democrat or the Republican politician who is actually willing to undo legislation like the USA PATRIOT Act. Most politicians from both parties refer to "whistleblowers" immediately as "traitors."

This is only because people refuse to vote for a third party. You get the government you elect.

In order to sue the NSA and challenge their warrantless collection of information or indeed any other single policy, I must first prove that I have "standing" to challenge those policies. To prove I have "Standing," I must show that I have been personally affected - for instance, I must show that I, personally, have been surveiled by the NSA.

Why can't you challenge the law on a lack of due process?

It would appear that you are oversimplifying the issues at hand in order to blame the electorate for the abuses of their elected leaders. But you and I and anyone else who is not a complete fool knows that much-vaunted democracy bears many flaws, of which these latest scandals are merely a single example.

Our democracy will always have flaws. What bothers me is that people are only now opening their eyes. We know that this has been going on since the Patriot Act gave the NSA the ability to do exactly what they have been doing. I think it is a bit self serving to feign surprise.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by Rahvin, posted 06-25-2013 6:12 PM Rahvin has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by Rahvin, posted 06-26-2013 12:30 PM Taq has responded

  
Rahvin
Member (Idle past 1135 days)
Posts: 3964
Joined: 07-01-2005


(1)
Message 36 of 46 (701804)
06-26-2013 12:30 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by Taq
06-26-2013 11:18 AM


I think the Tea Party movement has shown this to be false. Movements can still happen, even within parties.

That's what you took away from the tea party?

The whole thing was coopted by mainstream Republicans. Nothing really changed. This is like saying that the Occupy movement influenced Democrats. It didn't; not really. There was some verbal pandering in both cases, but nothing changed.

This is only because people refuse to vote for a third party. You get the government you elect.

It's far more complicated than that. Districts have been gerrymandered with the specific intent of maintaining current party distributions among voters. Many of the districts, if you look at them on a map, make literally no sense outside of that context. The American voting system is not and never has been a simple "majority rules" form of democracy. Third parties might have more of a chance, if it were. But the disctricting system and the lines that have been drawn ensure that challengers to the status quo have a virtually nil chance of success...which is why we have a few third party representatives in the legislature, but not many.

Why, do you think, the general American approval rating for Congress is around 10%, yet the same corrupt idiots get voted back in, year after year?

Why can't you challenge the law on a lack of due process?

Because since all of the evidence is secret, I cannot show that I have actually suffered the deprivation of due process.

The class action suit I know of consists of Verizon customers challenging the collection of their metadata - which is only now possible because the Verizon collection was leaked. Before the leak, while I would know that the NSA could potentially target me, I would need evidence that they had actually targeted me in order to have standing for a lawsuit.

You seem to think that, just because an action is unconstitutional, anyone can bring it to the courts. That's not the case. Never has been.

Our democracy will always have flaws. What bothers me is that people are only now opening their eyes. We know that this has been going on since the Patriot Act gave the NSA the ability to do exactly what they have been doing. I think it is a bit self serving to feign surprise.

Knowledge of a general and uncertain possibility is very different from specific knowledge of an ongoing certainty. This is simple human nature - some of us have been upset about the USA PATRIOT act and other laws for a while - but sometimes it takes a revelation of specifics with evidence from someone like Snowden to actually catapult the issue into the national consciousness and spark mass outrage.


The human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion (either as being the received opinion or as being agreeable to itself) draws all things else to support and agree with it. - Francis Bacon

"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers

A world that can be explained even with bad reasons is a familiar world. But, on the other hand, in a universe suddenly divested of illusions and lights, man feels an alien, a stranger. His exile is without remedy since he is deprived of the memory of a lost home or the hope of a promised land. This divorce between man and his life, the actor and his setting, is properly the feeling of absurdity. Albert Camus

"...the pious hope that by combining numerous little turds of variously tainted data, one can obtain a valuable result; but in fact, the outcome is merely a larger than average pile of shit." - Barash, David 1995...

"Many that live deserve death. And some die that deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then be not too eager to deal out death in the name of justice, fearing for your own safety. Even the wise cannot see all ends." - Gandalf, J. R. R. Tolkien: The Lord Of the Rings


This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by Taq, posted 06-26-2013 11:18 AM Taq has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by Taq, posted 06-26-2013 12:40 PM Rahvin has responded
 Message 41 by nwr, posted 06-26-2013 6:04 PM Rahvin has responded
 Message 43 by Jon, posted 06-26-2013 11:51 PM Rahvin has not yet responded

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 7592
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 37 of 46 (701806)
06-26-2013 12:40 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by Rahvin
06-26-2013 12:30 PM


That's what you took away from the tea party?

Yep. Long time incumbent Republicans lost their primary races. I would say that is pretty dramatic.

It's far more complicated than that. Districts have been gerrymandered with the specific intent of maintaining current party distributions among voters. Many of the districts, if you look at them on a map, make literally no sense outside of that context.

The only way this works is if the voters are happy with the current parties, or at least apathetic.

Because since all of the evidence is secret, I cannot show that I have actually suffered the deprivation of due process.

You are saying that the process itself lacks due process, so all you need is the system itself.

Knowledge of a general and uncertain possibility is very different from specific knowledge of an ongoing certainty. This is simple human nature - some of us have been upset about the USA PATRIOT act and other laws for a while - but sometimes it takes a revelation of specifics with evidence from someone like Snowden to actually catapult the issue into the national consciousness and spark mass outrage.

But no one has been upset enough to vote for a candidate that pledges to repeal the Patriot Act, even though we knew that these types of searches and seizures would be going on.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by Rahvin, posted 06-26-2013 12:30 PM Rahvin has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by Rahvin, posted 06-26-2013 4:50 PM Taq has responded

  
Rahvin
Member (Idle past 1135 days)
Posts: 3964
Joined: 07-01-2005


(1)
Message 38 of 46 (701836)
06-26-2013 4:50 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by Taq
06-26-2013 12:40 PM


Yep. Long time incumbent Republicans lost their primary races. I would say that is pretty dramatic.

And what actually happened? Did the actual platform of the Republican Party change in any significant way? Did they split?

You're focusing on the trees. Look at the forest - nothing significantly changed. The Tea Party movement was primarily an anti-Obama movement focusing on foolhardy tax policies that were already present within the Republican party, rejection of so-called "Obamacare," and outright racism. The Republicans easily co-opted the movement - a few individual Republicans changed seats, but the system remains rigged to the status quo. Elections require money and voters, which have been strongly influenced by gerrymandering and massive political contributions for the ultra-rich, like the Koch brothers.

The only way this works is if the voters are happy with the current parties, or at least apathetic.

It requires voter awareness, for one thing. One of the largest flaws of democracy is that it requires an informed electorate - if you asked 9/10ths of Americans on the street whether their district has been gerrymandered, they'd answer with variations of "what's gerrymandering?"

And you're still relying on a simplified version of the voting process. You cannot vote for a candidate based on their position on redistricting alone - you vote on a large number of positions, and redistricting is very rarely one of the hot-button voting issues. That's not even wrong, it's an inevitable consequence of voting for people rather than specific positions. It's a package deal. Find me a "perfect" candidate and I assure you I'll vote for him/her. But I can honestly say that not once can I recall a state legislator that I could choose to vote for who even mentioned redistricting in his/her campaign.

You are saying that the process itself lacks due process, so all you need is the system itself.

That's a nice thaught, but it has never passed the muster of a judge. I can remember not terribly long ago a lawsuit that attempted to challenge the FBI's usage of National Security Letters (authorized under the USA PATRIOT Act, these require information to be disclosed and forbids the recipient from disclosing receipt or content of the letter). The system was known, but the complainant could not prove to a judge that an NSL had actually been used against him - and so he could not prove he had standing, and the case was thrown out.

An unconstitutional system is not sufficient to sue. You have to prove that you, specifically, have been targeted by that system. Not that you may have been, or that your rights would be violated if you were a target. You have to prove that you've actually been targeted. That's impossible if the evidence you would need is classified.

But no one has been upset enough to vote for a candidate that pledges to repeal the Patriot Act, even though we knew that these types of searches and seizures would be going on.

To a large degree we did when we voted for Obama, who promised not specifically to overturn the USA PATRIOT Act, but did promise to counter the Bush abuses of the public trust including renditions, warrant-less wiretapping, and other related items. Of course, he lied, but you cannot blame the electorate when they vote for a man based on his platform and then he breaks every promise.

And the leak has only now propelled this problem into the public consciousness. There hasn't been an election in the last few weeks - the electorate has not had a chance, while somewhat rallied, to make such decisions.

Again I say that knowledge of possibilities and generalities is different from knowledge of specific and ongoing actualities with supporting evidence. You seem to be insisting that the electorate be perfectly aware and perfectly rational - and we know that's just a pipe dream. Human nature tends toward the discounting of vague possibilities that will probably happen to someone else, but tends toward a different reaction when everyone is told that we are all specifically being watched.

Your overly simplified suggestion that "well, the people got what they wanted, and anyway they should have done something about it a long time ago" is neither true nor helpful. If it were true, the approval rating of Congress would be something above 10% and the voting experience in the US would not be nearly universally considered the selection of the lesser among evils.


The human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion (either as being the received opinion or as being agreeable to itself) draws all things else to support and agree with it. - Francis Bacon

"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers

A world that can be explained even with bad reasons is a familiar world. But, on the other hand, in a universe suddenly divested of illusions and lights, man feels an alien, a stranger. His exile is without remedy since he is deprived of the memory of a lost home or the hope of a promised land. This divorce between man and his life, the actor and his setting, is properly the feeling of absurdity. Albert Camus

"...the pious hope that by combining numerous little turds of variously tainted data, one can obtain a valuable result; but in fact, the outcome is merely a larger than average pile of shit." - Barash, David 1995...

"Many that live deserve death. And some die that deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then be not too eager to deal out death in the name of justice, fearing for your own safety. Even the wise cannot see all ends." - Gandalf, J. R. R. Tolkien: The Lord Of the Rings


This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by Taq, posted 06-26-2013 12:40 PM Taq has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by Taq, posted 06-26-2013 5:35 PM Rahvin has responded

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 7592
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 39 of 46 (701840)
06-26-2013 5:35 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by Rahvin
06-26-2013 4:50 PM


You're focusing on the trees. Look at the forest - nothing significantly changed.

The Republican party shifted noticeably to the hard right. I am looking at the forest.

It requires voter awareness, for one thing. One of the largest flaws of democracy is that it requires an informed electorate - if you asked 9/10ths of Americans on the street whether their district has been gerrymandered, they'd answer with variations of "what's gerrymandering?"

And you're still relying on a simplified version of the voting process. You cannot vote for a candidate based on their position on redistricting alone - you vote on a large number of positions, and redistricting is very rarely one of the hot-button voting issues. That's not even wrong, it's an inevitable consequence of voting for people rather than specific positions. It's a package deal. Find me a "perfect" candidate and I assure you I'll vote for him/her. But I can honestly say that not once can I recall a state legislator that I could choose to vote for who even mentioned redistricting in his/her campaign.

Why don't YOU run for office?

That's a nice thaught, but it has never passed the muster of a judge. I can remember not terribly long ago a lawsuit that attempted to challenge the FBI's usage of National Security Letters (authorized under the USA PATRIOT Act, these require information to be disclosed and forbids the recipient from disclosing receipt or content of the letter). The system was known, but the complainant could not prove to a judge that an NSL had actually been used against him - and so he could not prove he had standing, and the case was thrown out.

An unconstitutional system is not sufficient to sue. You have to prove that you, specifically, have been targeted by that system. Not that you may have been, or that your rights would be violated if you were a target. You have to prove that you've actually been targeted. That's impossible if the evidence you would need is classified.

So you are saying that no one has subpoena rights for these records, even FOIA rights?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by Rahvin, posted 06-26-2013 4:50 PM Rahvin has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by Rahvin, posted 06-26-2013 5:46 PM Taq has not yet responded

  
Rahvin
Member (Idle past 1135 days)
Posts: 3964
Joined: 07-01-2005


Message 40 of 46 (701842)
06-26-2013 5:46 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by Taq
06-26-2013 5:35 PM


The Republican party shifted noticeably to the hard right. I am looking at the forest.

I didn't see the Republicans shift farther to the right. ALl I saw was increased polarization. The legislation proposed by the Republicans didn't get any farther right that I ever saw - they just took a more hardline stance against compromise. As that had already been a growing trend before the tea party came along, I don't see that as an effect of the tea party, even though the trend continued after their rise.

Why don't YOU run for office?

I haven't even the faintest idea where to start, and I don;t have the luxury of being able to give up my day job to seek office. And those are just the obvious immediate first-order gatekeepers to doing such a thing.

So you are saying that no one has subpoena rights for these records, even FOIA rights?

They're State Secrets. Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying. People have tried. They have failed. When the courts demand records, the executive just says "State Secrets!" and it's all kept secret. FOIA rights are only useful if you know the specific name of the specific document you want to request. How precisely would you learn the name of a document relating to a classified program that may or may not have actually targeted you? Even then, the documents would be heavily redacted.

You seem to think that the US government is far more transparent than it actually is. We have been given the appearance of transparency with things like the Freedom of Information Act. And yet I cannot simply make an FOIA request for documents relating to the extraordinary rendition of terror suspects. Neither can I make an FOIA request to obtain details on what information has been collected from my internet or telephone usage by the NSA.


The human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion (either as being the received opinion or as being agreeable to itself) draws all things else to support and agree with it. - Francis Bacon

"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers

A world that can be explained even with bad reasons is a familiar world. But, on the other hand, in a universe suddenly divested of illusions and lights, man feels an alien, a stranger. His exile is without remedy since he is deprived of the memory of a lost home or the hope of a promised land. This divorce between man and his life, the actor and his setting, is properly the feeling of absurdity. Albert Camus

"...the pious hope that by combining numerous little turds of variously tainted data, one can obtain a valuable result; but in fact, the outcome is merely a larger than average pile of shit." - Barash, David 1995...

"Many that live deserve death. And some die that deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then be not too eager to deal out death in the name of justice, fearing for your own safety. Even the wise cannot see all ends." - Gandalf, J. R. R. Tolkien: The Lord Of the Rings


This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by Taq, posted 06-26-2013 5:35 PM Taq has not yet responded

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 5583
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005


(1)
Message 41 of 46 (701844)
06-26-2013 6:04 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by Rahvin
06-26-2013 12:30 PM


This is like saying that the Occupy movement influenced Democrats.

Oh, it did. It was probably an important factor in the outcome of the last election.

No doubt it did not have as much influence as you would have liked, but it did have influence. When that 47% speech of Romney's came out, people were saying "Oh, he really means the 99%." They got that idea from OWS.


Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by Rahvin, posted 06-26-2013 12:30 PM Rahvin has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by Rahvin, posted 06-26-2013 6:12 PM nwr has acknowledged this reply

  
Rahvin
Member (Idle past 1135 days)
Posts: 3964
Joined: 07-01-2005


(1)
Message 42 of 46 (701845)
06-26-2013 6:12 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by nwr
06-26-2013 6:04 PM


Oh, it did. It was probably an important factor in the outcome of the last election.

No doubt it did not have as much influence as you would have liked, but it did have influence. When that 47% speech of Romney's came out, people were saying "Oh, he really means the 99%." They got that idea from OWS.

It didn't produce any real political change. It didn't produce any detectable influence on new legislation. The Democratic Party has not changed its platform; neither have third parties seen additional members elected. I'm sure it helped Obama get re-elected...but is that really a change in the Democratic Party? The fact that it was a re-election would suggest strongly that it is not.


The human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion (either as being the received opinion or as being agreeable to itself) draws all things else to support and agree with it. - Francis Bacon

"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers

A world that can be explained even with bad reasons is a familiar world. But, on the other hand, in a universe suddenly divested of illusions and lights, man feels an alien, a stranger. His exile is without remedy since he is deprived of the memory of a lost home or the hope of a promised land. This divorce between man and his life, the actor and his setting, is properly the feeling of absurdity. Albert Camus

"...the pious hope that by combining numerous little turds of variously tainted data, one can obtain a valuable result; but in fact, the outcome is merely a larger than average pile of shit." - Barash, David 1995...

"Many that live deserve death. And some die that deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then be not too eager to deal out death in the name of justice, fearing for your own safety. Even the wise cannot see all ends." - Gandalf, J. R. R. Tolkien: The Lord Of the Rings


This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by nwr, posted 06-26-2013 6:04 PM nwr has acknowledged this reply

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 43 of 46 (701853)
06-26-2013 11:51 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by Rahvin
06-26-2013 12:30 PM


Why, do you think, the general American approval rating for Congress is around 10%, yet the same corrupt idiots get voted back in, year after year?

Because more people answer the phone surveys than vote.


Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by Rahvin, posted 06-26-2013 12:30 PM Rahvin has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by xongsmith, posted 06-27-2013 12:26 AM Jon has not yet responded

  
xongsmith
Member
Posts: 1860
From: massachusetts US
Joined: 01-01-2009


(1)
Message 44 of 46 (701854)
06-27-2013 12:26 AM
Reply to: Message 43 by Jon
06-26-2013 11:51 PM


Jon replies to Rahvin:

Why, do you think, the general American approval rating for Congress is around 10%, yet the same corrupt idiots get voted back in, year after year?

Because more people answer the phone surveys than vote.

NO. It's because many more think that THEIR GUY is not one of the 90%.


- xongsmith, 5.7d

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by Jon, posted 06-26-2013 11:51 PM Jon has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by Rahvin, posted 06-27-2013 1:01 AM xongsmith has responded

    
Rahvin
Member (Idle past 1135 days)
Posts: 3964
Joined: 07-01-2005


Message 45 of 46 (701858)
06-27-2013 1:01 AM
Reply to: Message 44 by xongsmith
06-27-2013 12:26 AM


Many arent happy with "their guy" either. But voting doesn't mean you get to vote for all of your views. You just get to vote for the best out of the available choices - and there is a selection process before voting ever begins to actually get on the ballot: a process that requires money and attention.

Many are faced with the choice between a giant douche and a turd sandwich. You might prefer the sandwich to the douche, but you're still not going to be particularly happy about it.


The human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion (either as being the received opinion or as being agreeable to itself) draws all things else to support and agree with it. - Francis Bacon

"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers

A world that can be explained even with bad reasons is a familiar world. But, on the other hand, in a universe suddenly divested of illusions and lights, man feels an alien, a stranger. His exile is without remedy since he is deprived of the memory of a lost home or the hope of a promised land. This divorce between man and his life, the actor and his setting, is properly the feeling of absurdity. Albert Camus

"...the pious hope that by combining numerous little turds of variously tainted data, one can obtain a valuable result; but in fact, the outcome is merely a larger than average pile of shit." - Barash, David 1995...

"Many that live deserve death. And some die that deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then be not too eager to deal out death in the name of justice, fearing for your own safety. Even the wise cannot see all ends." - Gandalf, J. R. R. Tolkien: The Lord Of the Rings


This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by xongsmith, posted 06-27-2013 12:26 AM xongsmith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 46 by xongsmith, posted 06-27-2013 1:21 AM Rahvin has not yet responded

  
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