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Author Topic:   Rights of Nature?
dronestar
Member
Posts: 1407
From: usa
Joined: 11-19-2008


Message 121 of 147 (702841)
07-11-2013 4:59 PM
Reply to: Message 119 by New Cat's Eye
07-11-2013 4:24 PM


Ma! Pa! Get the dang black-flag!
CS writes:
Are you ever going to get anything right?
No time to explain now CS, . . . Look! There's another wasp family building a nest out yonder to yer weeding shed. Why, that there behavior is jst ask'n fer anoth'r 'murderin!'

This message is a reply to:
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AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 122 of 147 (702844)
07-11-2013 5:53 PM
Reply to: Message 118 by dronestar
07-11-2013 4:08 PM


Say What?
So what is wrong with any of these subjects? Are you saying they are somehow wrong?
The Chicken is right, you know. A cliff is damn dangerous when gravity is around. And thank god. You ever see a cliff with no gravity? Just sits there all wimpy and limp. No challange whatsoever. To get to the top all you have to do is push off slightly with your toes and you just hover oh so gently rising up to the top. How dull and boring.
And I suppose you're going to find some way to say ringo is wrong? When something is legal then there are no other options, are there. It's legal. Period. And when it isn't then it's not. You deny this? Where's your head?
And in god's name what is wrong with a weed-free garden? That is the goal of every gardener. My garden is weed free, or would be if I had a garden ... and it had no weeds in it.
So stop with the negative waves already. They've got a good thread going here. It's just oddball enough to serve as a most excellent counterpoint to that seriously heated thread over there with the other red line on it.
---------------------------------
I needed that. Thanks, dronester.
Edited by AZPaul3, : catharsis

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onifre
Member (Idle past 2950 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 123 of 147 (702882)
07-12-2013 8:22 AM
Reply to: Message 116 by New Cat's Eye
07-11-2013 3:35 PM


Re: Non-Human Rights
By "I think there is something there" I meant something there to the idea I had. As far as it being a good enough idea to expound on. I didn't mean anything physical. But I can see how you took that out of context.
*struts*
I'd say that cliffs are dangerous. And you're saying the danger is inherent in standing.
A cliff by itself doesn't seem to be a danger. It's just sitting there all stupid, and being a cliff.
The inherent danger is in standing on the egde of it. You could fall.
*struts* *chop to the chest* *chop to the chest*
I'm having trouble picturing rights in this way.
I'm just saying it's inherent to living beings but not innate in living beings. There is a difference.
*struts* "To be the man you gotta beat the man, Woooo!"
- Oni
Edited by onifre, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 116 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-11-2013 3:35 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 125 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-12-2013 10:47 AM onifre has replied

  
1.61803
Member (Idle past 1503 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


(1)
Message 124 of 147 (702884)
07-12-2013 10:43 AM
Reply to: Message 106 by onifre
07-11-2013 1:43 PM


Re: Non-Human Rights
Physics is a bitch, and she's always in heat.

"You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 125 of 147 (702886)
07-12-2013 10:47 AM
Reply to: Message 123 by onifre
07-12-2013 8:22 AM


Re: Non-Human Rights
I'm just saying it's inherent to living beings but not innate in living beings. There is a difference.
Which is?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 123 by onifre, posted 07-12-2013 8:22 AM onifre has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 126 by onifre, posted 07-12-2013 5:34 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 2950 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 126 of 147 (702921)
07-12-2013 5:34 PM
Reply to: Message 125 by New Cat's Eye
07-12-2013 10:47 AM


Re: Non-Human Rights
Which is?
Which is what? Are you asking me what the difference between something being inherent to living beings and innate to living beings is?
- Oni

This message is a reply to:
 Message 125 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-12-2013 10:47 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 128 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-12-2013 5:43 PM onifre has replied

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 2950 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 127 of 147 (702922)
07-12-2013 5:35 PM
Reply to: Message 124 by 1.61803
07-12-2013 10:43 AM


Re: Non-Human Rights
Physics is a bitch, and she's always in heat.
She is. Which is why there is an inherent danger in standing on the side of a cliff.
- Oni

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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 128 of 147 (702923)
07-12-2013 5:43 PM
Reply to: Message 126 by onifre
07-12-2013 5:34 PM


Re: Non-Human Rights
Which is what? Are you asking me what the difference between something being inherent to living beings and innate to living beings is?
Yes. Exactly that.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 126 by onifre, posted 07-12-2013 5:34 PM onifre has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 130 by onifre, posted 07-12-2013 5:59 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 2950 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 129 of 147 (702924)
07-12-2013 5:48 PM
Reply to: Message 108 by ringo
07-11-2013 1:51 PM


Re: Non-Human Rights
If people "deserve" certain rights but they aren't granted untill a century later, that suggests that the convenience of the granters had higher priority than the "need" of the grantees
In the case of things like the right to drink from a water fountain or ride in the front of a bus, sure. But neither of those is inherent to living things.
Nobody deserves rights, especially not freedom. It is already an inherent quality of living things to be free. What can happen is someone infringes on those rights, with laws and sticks and hoses.
It makes no sense to say "You're not free because we haven't given you that right." That is not a right someone can give you. You are a free being, who may have been born in a time and place where there were laws and governing bodies that infringed on those rights.
You can't speak up until you have the right to speak up.
That's ridiculous. Anyone can speak up whenever they please. Freewill isn't something that is given.
First, some white people decided that black people "should" have rights - but nothing was actually done about it until it became convenient for a significant number of white people.
Black people had all the rights to live freely that every living thing has. Unfortunately, some were born in a time and place where the powers that be infringed on those rights.
- Oni

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 Message 108 by ringo, posted 07-11-2013 1:51 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
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onifre
Member (Idle past 2950 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 130 of 147 (702926)
07-12-2013 5:59 PM
Reply to: Message 128 by New Cat's Eye
07-12-2013 5:43 PM


Re: Non-Human Rights
Yes. Exactly that.
I should have asked that differently. Because you're confusing me with these jar-like posts.
Are you asking me what the difference is between something being innate to living beings or inherent to being alive?
If you're saying yes to that, then...
Something innate is found in the living organism. Something inherent to being alive is found whenever there is life.
Again with the example of the cliff. Danger isn't innate in cliffs, when they just sit there being cliffs. But there is an inherent danger in standing on the side of a cliff.
As an example, living freely is an inherent right to being alive. But freedom is not innate to living things.
- Oni
Edited by onifre, : No reason given.

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ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 131 of 147 (702994)
07-13-2013 12:13 PM
Reply to: Message 129 by onifre
07-12-2013 5:48 PM


Re: Non-Human Rights
onifre writes:
It makes no sense to say "You're not free because we haven't given you that right." That is not a right someone can give you.
Let's put it another way then: You are given the "privilege", if you prefer, not to have your inherent rights infringed on.
I can give you a piece of cake or I can give you the opportunty to eat the piece of cake you already have. Either way, you only get the cake that I let you have.

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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 132 of 147 (703086)
07-15-2013 11:55 AM
Reply to: Message 130 by onifre
07-12-2013 5:59 PM


Re: Non-Human Rights
As an example, living freely is an inherent right to being alive. But freedom is not innate to living things.
Okay, that makes sense. Its the is/ought thing I brought up before, like:
People ought to be free, but that don't mean they is.

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 133 of 147 (703406)
07-20-2013 2:28 PM


12ftchicken writes:
It is from nature that we are able to create all of the amazing tools that have made us the most brilliant tool makers in Earth's history and allowed us to thrive throughout the world.
are we not the only "tool makers" in history, or are we counting beavers and ants?

Replies to this message:
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jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 134 of 147 (703408)
07-20-2013 2:43 PM
Reply to: Message 133 by Phat
07-20-2013 2:28 PM


tool makers
No, we most certainly are not the only tool makers even here on Earth. The other great apes, many birds, sea otters and other critters also make and use tools.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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Tempe 12ft Chicken
Member (Idle past 335 days)
Posts: 438
From: Tempe, Az.
Joined: 10-25-2012


Message 135 of 147 (703457)
07-22-2013 10:20 AM
Reply to: Message 133 by Phat
07-20-2013 2:28 PM


Agreement
I have to agree with jar, we are not the only tool makers on this planet. An argument can definitely be made that we are the most efficient tool makers in history, although whether or not our efficiency is a beneficial thing to nature is not quite decided at this point.
If we can find a way to bring sustainability, such as is done with forest service work in the United States through selective cutting, into our tool making processes then nature will definitely see the benefits of these practices.
And of course Beavers, ants, the other great apes, and many other animals create tools. I think one of the most interesting uses of the environment to benefit a species is the use of sand kicking as a corral by dolphins. Although, many would say that this is not a tool, I feel that it is because it is separate from the self and being used with intent. There used to be Youtube clips of this from Discovery's Planet Earth Series, but it appears the BBC has removed them from Youtube. Perhaps you can find them.
I am amazed that you would think we are the only tool users in history, especially considering the number of tools that chimpanzees have been seen using, including sticks fashioned into spears:
Chimps use tools to hunt mammals
It is blantantly obvious to anyone who pays attention that tool use is something that many animals use and is not a uniquely human trait.

The theory of evolution by cumulative natural selection is the only theory we know of that is in principle capable of explaining the existence of organized complexity. - Richard Dawkins
Creationists make it sound as though a 'theory' is something you dreamt up after being drunk all night. - Issac Asimov
If you removed all the arteries, veins, & capillaries from a person’s body, and tied them end-to-endthe person will die. - Neil Degrasse Tyson
What would Buddha do? Nothing! What does the Buddhist terrorist do? Goes into the middle of the street, takes the gas, *pfft*, Self-Barbecue. The Christian and the Muslim on either side are yelling, "What the Fuck are you doing?" The Buddhist says, "Making you deal with your shit. - Robin Williams

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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