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Author Topic:   Why did the Christian messiah fail to fulfill the messianic prophecies?
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 16 of 716 (703613)
07-26-2013 9:27 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by Faith
07-26-2013 4:33 AM


Re: The Suffering Servant messianic passages
quote:
You also said that there is nothing about a dying Messiah in scripture, but there is, in Daniel 9:24-26, which Patai also references, and this passage speaks explicitly of the Messiah:
I could say a lot about your assertions but let's start with thus. How do you know that that passage is explicitly about The Messiah ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by Faith, posted 07-26-2013 4:33 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by Faith, posted 07-26-2013 2:20 PM PaulK has replied

  
Eliyahu
Member (Idle past 2259 days)
Posts: 288
From: Judah
Joined: 07-23-2013


Message 17 of 716 (703614)
07-26-2013 9:52 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by Faith
07-26-2013 4:33 AM


Re: The Suffering Servant messianic passages
quote:
quote:
I don't want to see Jewish commentators who view those passages as speaking about the messiah.
What I want is solid arguments based not on commentators, but on the Tanach, that Isaiah 53 speaks about the messiah.
Possibly we can do both.
Bs'd
Apperently not, because I have not seen any evidence from the Tanach that Isaiah 53 should speak about the messiah.
quote:
There are other passages in Isaiah that are understood to be messianic and are about the Suffering Servant:
Isa 42:1 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, [in whom] my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.
Isa 42:2 He shall not cry, nor lift up, nor cause his voice to be heard in the street.
Isa 42:3 A bruised reed shall he not break, and the smoking flax shall he not quench: he shall bring forth judgment unto truth.
Isa 42:4 He shall not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set judgment in the earth: and the isles shall wait for his law.
Isa 42:5 Thus saith God the LORD, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein:
Isa 42:6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;
Isa 42:7 To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, [and] them that sit in darkness out of the prison house.
Isa 42:8 I [am] the LORD: that [is] my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.
Isa 42:9 Behold, the former things are come to pass, and new things do I declare: before they spring forth I tell you of them.
The strongest proof for the servant being the people of Israel is Isaiah 42. This is also claimed by the NT as a messianic prophecy, see Matthew 12:16-21; "And charged them that they should not make him known: That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying, Behold my servant, whom I have chosen; my beloved, in whom my soul is well pleased: I will put my spirit upon him, and he shall shew judgment to the Gentiles. He shall not strive, nor cry; neither shall any man hear his voice in the streets. A bruised reed shall he not break, and smoking flax shall he not quench, till he send forth judgment unto victory. And in his name shall the Gentiles trust."
This is a quote from Isaiah 42, applied by the NT to JC. Now read here the whole chapter of Isaiah 42 and see that it speaks all the time about the servant of God, see who is that servant of God, and see that it does not speak about the messiah:
"Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles. He shall not cry, nor lift up, nor cause his voice to be heard in the street. A bruised reed shall he not break, and the smoking flax shall he not quench: he shall bring forth judgment unto truth. He shall not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set judgment in the earth: and the isles shall wait for his law. Thus saith God the LORD, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein: I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles; To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house. I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images. Behold, the former things are come to pass, and new things do I declare: before they spring forth I tell you of them. Sing unto the LORD a new song, and his praise from the end of the earth, ye that go down to the sea, and all that is therein; the isles, and the inhabitants thereof. Let the wilderness and the cities thereof lift up their voice, the villages that Kedar doth inhabit: let the inhabitants of the rock sing, let them shout from the top of the mountains. Let them give glory unto the LORD, and declare his praise in the islands. The LORD shall go forth as a mighty man, he shall stir up jealousy like a man of war: he shall cry, yea, roar; he shall prevail against his enemies. I have long time holden my peace; I have been still, and refrained myself: now will I cry like a travailing woman; I will destroy and devour at once. I will make waste mountains and hills, and dry up all their herbs; and I will make the rivers islands, and I will dry up the pools. And I will bring the blind by a way that they knew not; I will lead them in paths that they have not known: I will make darkness light before them, and crooked things straight. These things will I do unto them, and not forsake them. They shall be turned back, they shall be greatly ashamed, that trust in graven images, that say to the molten images, Ye are our gods. Hear, ye deaf; and look, ye blind, that ye may see. Who is blind, but my servant? or deaf, as my messenger that I sent? who is blind as he that is perfect, and blind as the LORD's servant? Seeing many things, but thou observest not; opening the ears, but he heareth not. The LORD is well pleased for his righteousness' sake; he will magnify the law, and make it honourable. But this is a people robbed and spoiled; they are all of them snared in holes, and they are hid in prison houses: they are for a prey, and none delivereth; for a spoil, and none saith, Restore. Who among you will give ear to this? who will hearken and hear for the time to come? Who gave Jacob for a spoil, and Israel to the robbers? did not the LORD, he against whom we have sinned? for they would not walk in his ways, neither were they obedient unto his law. Therefore he hath poured upon him the fury of his anger, and the strength of battle: and it hath set him on fire round about, yet he knew not; and it burned him, yet he laid it not to heart."
As you see, saying JC was the servant doesn't fit very well: "Hear, ye deaf; and look, ye blind, that ye may see. Who is blind, but my servant? or deaf, as my messenger that I sent? who is blind as he that is perfect, and blind as the LORD's servant? Seeing many things, but thou observest not; opening the ears, but he heareth not."
According to the NT Jesus was not blind and deaf.
Conclusion: JC is not the servant.
Conclusion: The NT is based upon false premises.
It is here literally spelled out who is the servant that Isaiah talks about: "Who is blind, but my servant? or deaf, as my messenger that I sent? who is blind as he that is perfect, and blind as the LORD's servant? Seeing many things, but thou observest not; opening the ears, but he heareth not. The LORD is well pleased for his righteousness' sake; he will magnify the law, and make it honourable. But this is a people robbed and spoiled; they are all of them snared in holes, and they are hid in prison houses: they are for a prey, and none delivereth; for a spoil, and none saith, Restore. Who among you will give ear to this? who will hearken and hear for the time to come? Who gave Jacob for a spoil, and Israel to the robbers?"
Where it says "But this is a people", (some translations say: But it is a people), there it says in the original Hebrew: we-hu am bazuz. That is literally translated: "And HE is a robbed nation/people." The 'he' refers to the servant in the previous verse. The following verses identify that nation as the people of Israel: "Who gave Jacob for a spoil, and Israel to the robbers?"
We see here that in Isaiah 41:8-9, that is only twenty verses before the beginning of chapter 42 about which the NT claims that the servant is the messiah, that there the servant is clearly and undisputed ISRAEL: " But you, Israel, my servant, Jacob, whom I have chosen, the offspring of Abraham, my friend; you whom I took from the ends of the earth, and called from its farthest corners, saying to you: You are my servant, I have chosen you and not cast you off"
We also see that in Isaiah 42:18-25, only fourteen verses after the beginning of chapter 42 about which the NT claimes that the servant is the messiah, that there the servant is clearly and undisputed ISRAEL.
So we see that the Christian claim is based upon nothing, and goes against the context and against the plain text of Isaiah.
Eliyahu, light unto the nations
"Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE!" Deut 6:4
"All the peoples walk each in the name of his god, but as for us; we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God forever and ever!" Micah 4:5

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by Faith, posted 07-26-2013 4:33 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by Faith, posted 07-26-2013 2:23 PM Eliyahu has replied

  
Eliyahu
Member (Idle past 2259 days)
Posts: 288
From: Judah
Joined: 07-23-2013


Message 18 of 716 (703615)
07-26-2013 10:04 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by Faith
07-26-2013 4:33 AM


Re: The Suffering Servant messianic passages
quote:
The writings of the various Jewish interpretations of the scriptures ought to go some way toward showing that it isn't only the New Testament (whose writers are almost all Jews anyway) but many nonChristian Jews who find those passages to be messianic. That may not be proof but then how do you prove something that's a matter of interpretation anyway? The fact that it is shared by many serious Jewish interpreters of the scriptures ought to carry a great deal of weight.
Bs'd
It looks to me, that what you are trying to say here, is that you cannot bring any proof from Isaiah, or from the rest of the Tanach, that the suffering servant is the messiah.
So, just like I said, the Christians don't have the slightest shred of Biblical evidence, that Isaiah 53 speaks about the messiah.
So why should anybody take the Christian claims seriously??
.
.
.
Eliyahu, light unto the nations
"Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE!" Deut 6:4
"All the peoples walk each in the name of his god, but as for us; we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God forever and ever!" Micah 4:5
.
.
Edited by Eliyahu, : No reason given.
Edited by Eliyahu, : No reason given.
Edited by Eliyahu, : No reason given.
Edited by Eliyahu, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by Faith, posted 07-26-2013 4:33 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by Eliyahu, posted 07-26-2013 10:58 AM Eliyahu has replied
 Message 24 by Faith, posted 07-26-2013 2:28 PM Eliyahu has replied
 Message 41 by Faith, posted 07-27-2013 3:26 AM Eliyahu has not replied

  
Eliyahu
Member (Idle past 2259 days)
Posts: 288
From: Judah
Joined: 07-23-2013


Message 19 of 716 (703618)
07-26-2013 10:58 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by Eliyahu
07-26-2013 10:04 AM


Re: The Suffering Servant is NOT the messiah
Bs'd
THIS is Biblical proof for a point of view:
Let us now take a look about who the prophet Isaiah is really talking here. Isaiah 52:13; Behold My servant shall deal prudently . The key question here is: Who is it that the prophet Isaiah calls the servant of God? We shall let the prophet Isaiah speak for himself, and please keep in mind that the name of Jacob was changed into Israel after the fight with the angel in the end of Genesis 32; Jacob is synonymous with Israel:
Isaiah 41:8: But thou , Israel art my servant, Jacob whom I have chosen, the seed of Abraham my friend. Thou who I have taken from the ends of the earth, and called thou from the chief men thereof, and said unto thee: Thou art my servant, I have chosen thee, and not cast thee away.
Isaiah 44:1-2; Yet now hear, O Jacob my servant, and Israel who I have chosen. Thus said the Lord that made thee, and formed thee from the womb, which will help thee; fear not O Jacob my servant, and thou Jesurun whom I have chosen.
Isaiah 44:21; Remember these, O Jacob and Israel, for thou art my servant. I have formed thee, thou art my servant; O Israel thou shalt not be forgotten of me
Isaiah 45:4; For Jacob, my servant’s sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name.
Isaiah 48:20; The lord hath redeemed his servant Jacob.
Isaiah 49:3; And said unto me: Thou art my servant, O Israel, in whom I will be glorified.
The servant that Isaiah is talking about is the people of Israel.
And there is a lot more where this came from, but in the above examples you can catch it neatly in one sentence.
.
.
Edited by Eliyahu, : No reason given.
Edited by Eliyahu, : No reason given.
Edited by Eliyahu, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by Eliyahu, posted 07-26-2013 10:04 AM Eliyahu has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by Eliyahu, posted 07-26-2013 11:49 AM Eliyahu has not replied

  
Eliyahu
Member (Idle past 2259 days)
Posts: 288
From: Judah
Joined: 07-23-2013


Message 20 of 716 (703619)
07-26-2013 11:49 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by Eliyahu
07-26-2013 10:58 AM


Re: The Suffering Servant is NOT the messiah
Bs'd
Another interesting question: When Isaiah is talking about the servant of God, is he then talking about God Himself, or about somebody else?
.
.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by Eliyahu, posted 07-26-2013 10:58 AM Eliyahu has not replied

  
Eliyahu
Member (Idle past 2259 days)
Posts: 288
From: Judah
Joined: 07-23-2013


Message 21 of 716 (703620)
07-26-2013 11:53 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by Stile
07-25-2013 9:57 AM


Re: Posting Tips
quote:
I've stolen a nice thing one of the other posters here generally shows to new comers when he sees them:
... as you are new here, some posting tips:
type
quotes are easy
and it becomes:
quotes are easy
or type
quote:
quotes are easy
and it becomes:
quote:quotes are easy
also check out (help) links on any formatting questions when in the reply window.
For other formatting tips see Posting Tips
For a quick overview see EvC Forum Primer
If you have problems with replies see Report Discussion Problems Here 3.0
(Stolen from RAZD)
You can also click on the "peek" button in the bottom right of any message and it will show you exactly what the person typed in order to get the display you see.
Welcome to EvC, it's a good time here. We don't have any lemonade to give you, though...
Bs'd
Thanks for the info.
I think I'm getting the hang of it.
.
.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Stile, posted 07-25-2013 9:57 AM Stile has seen this message but not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 22 of 716 (703630)
07-26-2013 2:20 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by PaulK
07-26-2013 9:27 AM


Re: The Suffering Servant messianic passages
Because it says it's about the Messiah.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by PaulK, posted 07-26-2013 9:27 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by PaulK, posted 07-26-2013 2:38 PM Faith has replied
 Message 46 by Eliyahu, posted 07-27-2013 1:17 PM Faith has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 23 of 716 (703631)
07-26-2013 2:23 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by Eliyahu
07-26-2013 9:52 AM


Re: The Suffering Servant messianic passages
It would be nice if you would at least acknowledge that Christians didn't make up the messianic meaning of the Suffering Servant passages if such nonChristian sources as the Babylonian Talmud and so many others also view it as messianic.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by Eliyahu, posted 07-26-2013 9:52 AM Eliyahu has replied

Replies to this message:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 24 of 716 (703632)
07-26-2013 2:28 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by Eliyahu
07-26-2013 10:04 AM


Re: The Suffering Servant messianic passages
So, just like I said, the Christians don't have the slightest shred of Biblical evidence, that Isaiah 53 speaks about the messiah.
So why should anybody take the Christian claims seriously??
Perhaps I will go through some of the passages later to explain what's so clearly messianic about them. Meanwhile it ought to carry some weight that many great spiritual men down the centuries knew them to be messianic.
.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by Eliyahu, posted 07-26-2013 10:04 AM Eliyahu has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by Eliyahu, posted 07-27-2013 1:22 PM Faith has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 25 of 716 (703634)
07-26-2013 2:38 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by Faith
07-26-2013 2:20 PM


Re: The Suffering Servant messianic passages
quote:
Because it says it's about the Messiah.
Does it ? I think you'll find that that is just your interpretation - and one that is not supported in any significant way by the text.
So, let me repeat the question: How do you know that that passage is explicitly about The Messiah ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by Faith, posted 07-26-2013 2:20 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by Faith, posted 07-26-2013 2:49 PM PaulK has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 26 of 716 (703635)
07-26-2013 2:49 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by PaulK
07-26-2013 2:38 PM


Re: The Suffering Servant messianic passages
Dan 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
Dan 9:25 Know therefore and understand, [that] from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince [shall be] seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
Dan 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof [shall be] with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by PaulK, posted 07-26-2013 2:38 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by PaulK, posted 07-26-2013 2:54 PM Faith has replied
 Message 36 by ramoss, posted 07-26-2013 7:32 PM Faith has replied
 Message 49 by Eliyahu, posted 07-27-2013 1:25 PM Faith has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 27 of 716 (703636)
07-26-2013 2:54 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by Faith
07-26-2013 2:49 PM


Daniel 9
So the word "messiah" appears. But you know perfectly well that "there are many "messiahs"". And since neither of the two messiahs mentioned seem to be doing anything attributed to The Messiah what reason is there to think that either is The Messiah rather than just a messiah ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by Faith, posted 07-26-2013 2:49 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by Faith, posted 07-26-2013 3:05 PM PaulK has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 28 of 716 (703637)
07-26-2013 3:05 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by PaulK
07-26-2013 2:54 PM


Re: Daniel 9
Looks obvious to me as I'm sure it does to you as well, and how about the fact that not only 2000 years of Christian understanding plus the sources I mentioned from the Patai book regard it as referring to THE Messiah, and if you still want to argue go ahead I won't answer since you have no real interest in the truth about it anyway.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by PaulK, posted 07-26-2013 2:54 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by PaulK, posted 07-26-2013 3:13 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 30 by Faith, posted 07-26-2013 6:26 PM Faith has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 29 of 716 (703638)
07-26-2013 3:13 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by Faith
07-26-2013 3:05 PM


Re: Daniel 9
quote:
Looks obvious to me as I'm sure it does to you as well
Since I'm pretty sure that you know that the word translated as messiah doesn't have to mean The Messiah I'd say that it's pretty obvious to you that I am right.
quote:
and how about the fact that not only 2000 years of Christian understanding plus the sources I mentioned from the Patai book regard it as referring to THE Messiah,
If they don't have a decent case - and they don't - their opinion isn't worth much.
quote:
and if you still want to argue go ahead I won't answer since you have no real interest in the truth about it anyway.
On the contrary. The fact that you can't support your assertion rather shows that you are the one who has no interest in the truth.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by Faith, posted 07-26-2013 3:05 PM Faith has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 30 of 716 (703648)
07-26-2013 6:26 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by Faith
07-26-2013 3:05 PM


Re: Daniel 9
Also, wherever a "Messiah" is spoken of by that title alone, without giving the identity of the one anointed -- such as Saul or David or Solomon and so on -- it is understood to refer to THE Messiah promised and prophesied down the centuries from Eden, who will save the people from their sins. The fact that there are many ordinary messiahs is irrelevant and a red herring, since all the anointed ones but THE Anointed One are clearly identified.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by Faith, posted 07-26-2013 3:05 PM Faith has not replied

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 Message 38 by PaulK, posted 07-27-2013 1:03 AM Faith has not replied
 Message 50 by Eliyahu, posted 07-27-2013 1:29 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 165 by Eliyahu, posted 07-19-2016 6:57 AM Faith has not replied

  
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