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Author Topic:   Why did the Christian messiah fail to fulfill the messianic prophecies?
Eliyahu
Member (Idle past 2259 days)
Posts: 288
From: Judah
Joined: 07-23-2013


Message 46 of 716 (703684)
07-27-2013 1:17 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by Faith
07-26-2013 2:20 PM


Re: The Suffering Servant messianic passages
Because it says it's about the Messiah.
Bs'd
Maybe you can enlighten me, and tell me WHERE it says it speaks about the messiah?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by Faith, posted 07-26-2013 2:20 PM Faith has not replied

  
Eliyahu
Member (Idle past 2259 days)
Posts: 288
From: Judah
Joined: 07-23-2013


Message 47 of 716 (703685)
07-27-2013 1:20 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by Faith
07-26-2013 2:23 PM


Re: The Suffering Servant messianic passages
It would be nice if you would at least acknowledge that Christians didn't make up the messianic meaning of the Suffering Servant passages if such nonChristian sources as the Babylonian Talmud and so many others also view it as messianic.
Bs'd
It isn't messianic, and the Talmud doesn't view it as messianic:
Do the rabbis say that Isaiah 53 is messianic?
No; they do not.
Christianity is unable to prove from the Biblical text of Isaiah 53 that the servant of God, whom the text describes, is a messianic figure. The text does not speak about a king or a ruler, nowhere is spoken about a descendent of David or Jesse, and the word ‘messiah’ is nowhere used in Isaiah 53. Since this is the only text Christianity has to back up their fairy tale of a suffering and dying messiah, they grasp at straws. They claim that the Jewish understanding of this text was always that it speaks about the messiah. Since they cannot come up with any scriptural proof, they bring the ancient rabbinic writings as proof that Isaiah 53 speaks about the messiah. Christianity goes rabbinic. It used to be only messianic Jews coming with the ancient rabbis in order to make their point, but now also mainstream Christianity is falling back upon the rabbis in order to prove that JC was the messiah. This is about the same as butchers calling upon vegetarians in order to prove that eating meat is very healthy. The reason for this absurd behavior is very simple: The Christians have nothing better.
But what Christianity does here is applying the same tactic which the NT writers displayed: They take a piece of text, rip it out of context, and misrepresent it. In order to understand what is going on in books like the Talmud and Midrash you need to have been thoroughly taught by rabbis in a yeshiva. Because of the fact that Christians have no idea what is flying when they read those books they come to wrong conclusions.
An example of this is to be found on this site: http://www.mayimhayim.org/Poetry/Isaiah%2053.htm
They bring there the following passage from the Talmud: "The Messiah --what is his name?...The Rabbis say, The Leper Scholar, as it is said, `surely he has borne our griefs and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him a leper, smitten of God and afflicted...'" (Sanhedrin 98b)
Now their claim is that the Talmud here says that Isaiah 53 speaks about the messiah. However, that claim is wrong. What the rabbis from the Talmud do here is making an asmachta. An asmachta is a mnemonic device, invented by the rabbis, and it does NOT give over the plain meaning of the Biblical text.
Here is another example of it: Babylonian Talmud tractate Sotah 14a: "R. Simlai expounded: Why did Moses our teacher yearn to enter the land of Israel? Did he want to eat of its fruits or satisfy himself from its bounty? But thus spoke Moses, 'Many precepts were commanded to Israel which can only be fulfilled in the land of Israel. I wish to enter the land so that they may all be fulfilled by me'. The Holy One, blessed be He, said to him, 'Is it only to receive the reward for obeying the commandments that thou seekest? I ascribe it to thee as if thou didst perform them as it is said: Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he poured out his soul unto death, and was numbered with the transgressors, yet he bare the sins of many, and made intercession for the transgressors. This is a quote from Isaiah 53.
Does the Talmud now think that Isaiah 53 is speaking about Moses? Of course not. The text of Isaiah is only referred to in order to give an example. Just like the Talmud doesn’t believe that Isaiah 53 speaks about Moses, the same way the Talmud doesn’t claim it speaks about the messiah. Here are a few more examples of the Talmudic rabbis making an asmachta:
Babylonian Talmud, Brachot 57b: "Six things are a good sign for a sick person, namely, sneezing, perspiration, open bowels, seminal emission, sleep and a dream. Sneezing, as it is written: 'His sneezings flash forth light'. (Job 41.10) Perspiration, as it is written: 'In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread'. (Gen 3.19) Open bowels, as it is written: 'If lie that is bent down hasteneth to be loosed, he shall not go down dying to the pit'. (Is 51.14) Seminal emission, as it is written: 'Seeing seed, he will prolong his days'. (Is 53.10) Sleep, as it is written:' I should have slept, then should I have been at rest'. (Job 3.13) A dream, as it is written: 'Thou didst cause me to dream and make me to live'. (Is 38.16)
Does anybody in his right mind now think that the Talmud claims that Isaiah 53 speaks about a sick person having a seminal emission? Also from the other texts brought by the Talmud it is clear that the texts referred to by the Talmud are not claimed to be talking about the subject under discussion; a sick person. So also when the Talmud speaks about the messiah, and then refers to Isaiah 53, saying: As it is written etc., then the Talmud does not claim that Isaiah 53 speaks about the messiah.
In the back of tractate Brachot of the Babylonian Talmud, on page 90-91 of the counting of the mepharshim, rabbenu Shimshon Mekutsih gives the rules according which we learn the Talmud. There is written under the heading Hagada (stories) Hagada, that is all the explanation that comes in the Talmud on any subject that is not a commandment. This is hagada. You are not to learn from it except for that what comes up on your mind. And you must know that all that the rabbis established concerning the practical execution of the commandments, comes from the mouth of Moses our rabbi, peace be upon him, which he received from the mouth of the Mighty One. We are not to add or subtract from it. And what each one explained from the verses like it appeared to him, and like he saw it in his understanding, and according to what came up on his understanding from the explanations, these we learn, and we don’t rely on the rest.
Everything written in the Talmud that expounds the 613 commandments, given by God to the Jewish people through Moses our teacher, peace be upon him, that is what we rely upon and study diligently. Everything else in the Talmud that does not speak about the 613 commandments, that is hagada, stories. About that is written above: We don’t rely on the rest.
So if anybody is not convinced about the concept of asmachta, and wants to think that the Talmud says that Isaiah 53 speaks about Moses, or a sick person who has a seminal emission, or about the messiah, then he should read the last words again about how to read the stories in the Talmud which do not refer to the law: We don’t rely on the rest. The same holds true for the Midrash. You can not take a piece of Midrash and say that it is an absolute truth. In the middle ages, in 1263 CE, the Jewish sage rabbi Moshe ben Nachman, aka the Ramban, was forced to defend Judaism against the Christian religion by King James of Aragonia, in Barcelona. The king attended every session of the dispute, and regularly joined in on the Christian side. Afterwards the king considered the Ramban the winner of the dispute, and he rewarded him with 300 gold coins. But when the Ramban published the disputation in writing, he barely escaped execution and was exiled. During the disputation his opponent, a Jewish convert to Christianity, brought a Midrash in which it is written that at the time when the Temple was destroyed, the messiah was born. Upon this the Ramban answered: "We have three kind of books: The first is the Bible, (the Only Testament) and all of us believe in it in perfect faith. The second is what is called the Talmud, which is the commentary on the commandments of the Torah. There are 613 commandments in the Torah, and there is not one of them which is not explained in the Talmud. We firmly believe in the Talmud's explanations of the commandments. We have a third book called Midrash, meaning "sermons". It is just as if the bishop would rise and deliver a sermon, and one of the listeners whom the sermon pleased recorded it. With regard to this book of sermons, if one believes in it; it is well and good, and if one does not believe in it, no harm will come to him. We have sages who wrote that the messiah will not be born until the time near the end, at which time he will come to redeem us from the exile. Therefore, I do not believe the statement of this book that he was born on the day of the destruction of the Temple. We also call the Midrash the book of hagada, that is to say, it is nothing more than matters which one person tells another." Until here the quote of the big Jewish sage the Ramban.
The Ramban didn't believe in the literal statements of the Midrash. The Midrash contains stories, parables, which teach high morals and wise lessons, and we learn the lessons it teaches us, but also here you can not take every statement as a literal truth.
The Ramban said "We have three kind of books. The first is the Bible, and all of us believe in it in perfect faith." That is the highest authority, the Hebrew Bible. Every religious Jew believes in it with perfect faith.
The Midrash: "It is just as if the bishop would rise and deliver a sermon, and one of the listeners whom the sermon pleased recorded it. With regard to this book of sermons, if one believes in it; it is well and good, and if one does not believe in it, no harm will come to him". Simple and plain. Therefore no commentary can push aside the plain literal meaning of the Hebrew Bible, no matter whether that commentary comes from the Talmud, Midrash, or whatever. Therefore, when all through Isaiah the servant of God is the identified as the Jewish people, then also in Isaiah 53 the servant is the Jewish people.
But many times the Biblical text has deeper levels of meaning. There are altogether four levels of understanding the Bible. The first one is the 'pshat', that is the plain literal meaning. That is what tells us in Isaiah 53 that the servant is the people of Israel.
The second level is 'remez'. That means hint, allusion. The text might hint to different things than described in the text.
Then there is 'drash'. That is what is understood from the text by applying the thirteen hermeneutical rules given by God to Moses at Sinai.
And the last one is 'sod', meaning secret. This points to the secrets in the text.
The Jewish sages explain the Bible on all levels, therefore sometimes explanations come up which might seem to be out of place, or contradictory, but those are then explanations on different, deeper, levels.
HOWEVER, no matter what might be derived from a text on different levels, the plain literal meaning of a Biblical text can never be erased.
Summarizing we can conclude:
The rabbis from the Talmud did not say that Isaiah 53 speaks about the messiah.
From the other Jewish writings you can not rip a text out of context and present it as the absolute truth.
Nothing in Isaiah 53 points to a messiah, and the servant in Isaiah is many times identified as the Jewish people.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by Faith, posted 07-26-2013 2:23 PM Faith has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 61 by NoNukes, posted 07-28-2013 1:17 PM Eliyahu has replied

  
Eliyahu
Member (Idle past 2259 days)
Posts: 288
From: Judah
Joined: 07-23-2013


Message 48 of 716 (703686)
07-27-2013 1:22 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by Faith
07-26-2013 2:28 PM


Re: The Suffering Servant messianic passages
Perhaps I will go through some of the passages later to explain what's so clearly messianic about them. Meanwhile it ought to carry some weight that many great spiritual men down the centuries knew them to be messianic.
Bs'd
the most weight carries Isaiah, who says it is about ISRAEL.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by Faith, posted 07-26-2013 2:28 PM Faith has not replied

  
Eliyahu
Member (Idle past 2259 days)
Posts: 288
From: Judah
Joined: 07-23-2013


Message 49 of 716 (703687)
07-27-2013 1:25 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by Faith
07-26-2013 2:49 PM


Re: The Suffering Servant messianic passages
Dan 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
Dan 9:25 Know therefore and understand, [that] from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince [shall be] seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
Dan 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof [shall be] with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
Bs'd
Daniel 9 does not speak about THE messiah.
It speaks about TWO (2) other messiahs.
For the finer details look here: Daniel9 - MountZion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by Faith, posted 07-26-2013 2:49 PM Faith has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 55 by kofh2u, posted 07-27-2013 2:22 PM Eliyahu has replied

  
Eliyahu
Member (Idle past 2259 days)
Posts: 288
From: Judah
Joined: 07-23-2013


Message 50 of 716 (703689)
07-27-2013 1:29 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by Faith
07-26-2013 6:26 PM


Re: Daniel 9
Also, wherever a "Messiah" is spoken of by that title alone, without giving the identity of the one anointed -- such as Saul or David or Solomon and so on -- it is understood to refer to THE Messiah promised and prophesied down the centuries from Eden, who will save the people from their sins.
Bs'd
Where can I find that idea in the Tanach?
The fact that there are many ordinary messiahs is irrelevant and a red herring, since all the anointed ones but THE Anointed One are clearly identified.
Nowhere in Daniel 9 is spoken about THE messiah.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by Faith, posted 07-26-2013 6:26 PM Faith has not replied

  
Eliyahu
Member (Idle past 2259 days)
Posts: 288
From: Judah
Joined: 07-23-2013


Message 51 of 716 (703690)
07-27-2013 1:36 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by Faith
07-26-2013 7:20 PM


Only one messiah and one comming
"Read them properly"
You mjean, like taking things out of context and mistranslation, and ignoring all the details that don't coincide with your predetermined belief?
No, that's what the people do who don't see two comings of Christ.
Bs'd
No, that is what the Christians and the NT do.
And as usual, I can prove it.
Let's start with the NT:
The NT brings us prophecies of which it claims that they are fulfilled by JC.
Let us take a closer look at those. The first one we find in Matthew 1:21; she will bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus, for he will save his people from their sins." All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had spoken by the prophet: "Behold, a virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and his name shall be called Emmanuel" (which means, God with us).
This text can be found in Isaiah 7:14; Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign. Behold, a young woman shall conceive and bear a son, and shall call his name Imman'u-el. Revised Standard Version.
We see here that here in Isaiah is not spoken about a virgin, but about a young woman. It is of course much more normal that a young woman gets pregnant than that a virgin gets pregnant. But Isaiah clearly speaks about a young woman, and not a virgin. Some translations say, for instance the King James, say in Isaiah 7:14 virgin, and not young woman, but that is a wrong translation. The Hebrew word used in Isaiah 7:14 is almah, and that means young woman, and not virgin. The Hebrew word for virgin is betulah. That word is used for instance when the Torah speaks about Rebecca in Gen 24:16; The maiden was very fair to look upon, a virgin, whom no man had known.
This fact is recognized by many Christian Bible translators. For instance the New English Bible, the Good News Bible, the Revised Standard Version, and the New World Translation have translated this in the right way, and not as virgin.
So the NT has been misquoting the Hebrew Bible.
Nowhere in the Tanach (Tanach is compilation of the first letters of the three parts of the Hebrew Bible, Torah, Nevi'iem, (prophets), and Chetuviem, (writings)) is a virgin to be found who would get pregnant. In fact, NOWHERE in the Tanach does a virgin bear a child. This concept is only to found in pagan mythology.
And when we look at the whole chapter of Isaiah 7, then we see that it doesn't speak about the messiah. It speaks about God giving a sign to Achaz, that he will have peace in his days.
This chapter has no bearing on the messiah whatsoever.
What the NT does is ripping a text out of context, mistranslating it, and presenting it as a messianic prophecy.
Next prophecy from the Tanach, as quoted by the NT:
Matt 2:14 And he rose and took the child and his mother by night, and departed to Egypt, 15 and remained there until the death of Herod. This was to fulfil what the Lord had spoken by the prophet, "Out of Egypt have I called my son."
Here a text from Hosea 11: 1 which says: out of Egypt I called my son is applied to the messiah.
But let's take a look WHO is the son of God in the Tanach: And you shall say to Pharaoh, 'Thus says the LORD, Israel is my first-born son, and I say to you, "Let my son go that he may serve me"; if you refuse to let him go, behold, I will slay your first-born son.'" Exodus 4:22
This is clear language. And also in Hosea 11:1 it CLEARLY speaks about Israel, which has been led out of slavery from Egypt by God. See here Hosea 11:1 complete, and not a part ripped out of context: When Israel was a child, I loved him, and out of Egypt I called my son.
Just read the whole chapter of Hosea 11 and see that it all speaks about Israel, and not about the messiah.
What the NT is doing here once again is ripping a piece of text out of context which has no bearing on the messiah whatsoever, and then present it as a messianic prophecy. Something it obviously is not.
Next prophecy from the Tanach, as quoted by the NT:
Matt 2:16-18 Then Herod, when he saw that he had been tricked by the wise men, was in a furious rage, and he sent and killed all the male children in Bethlehem and in all that region who were two years old or under, according to the time which he had ascertained from the wise men. Then was fulfilled what was spoken by the prophet Jeremiah: A voice was heard in Ramah, wailing and loud lamentation, Rachel weeping for her children; she refused to be consoled, because they were no more."
Here the NT claims that Jeremiah 31:15 speaks about a slaughter of children, taking place in the days of the messiah.
And now read what is really happening there: Jeremiah 31: 10 "Hear the word of the LORD, O nations, and declare it in the coastlands afar off; say, 'He who scattered Israel will gather him, and will keep him as a shepherd keeps his flock.' 11 For the LORD has ransomed Jacob, and has redeemed him from hands too strong for him. 12 They shall come and sing aloud on the height of Zion, and they shall be radiant over the goodness of the LORD, over the grain, the wine, and the oil, and over the young of the flock and the herd; their life shall be like a watered garden, and they shall languish no more. 13 Then shall the maidens rejoice in the dance, and the young men and the old shall be merry. I will turn their mourning into joy, I will comfort them, and give them gladness for sorrow. 14 I will feast the soul of the priests with abundance, and my people shall be satisfied with my goodness, says the LORD." 15 Thus says the LORD: "A voice is heard in Ramah, lamentation and bitter weeping. Rachel is weeping for her children; she refuses to be comforted for her children, because they are not." 16 Thus says the LORD: "Keep your voice from weeping, and your eyes from tears; for your work shall be rewarded, says the LORD, and they shall come back from the land of the enemy. 17 There is hope for your future, says the LORD, and your children shall come back to their own country.
As everyone can see, this speaks about Israel which went into exile, and of whom God says that they will return from the exile back to the land of Israel.
Another text which has no bearing on the slaughter of children in the days of messiah which is ripped out of context by the NT and is presented to us as a messianic prophecy.
Next prophecy from the Tanach, as quoted by the NT:
Matthew 2:23 And he went and dwelt in a city called Nazareth, that what was spoken by the prophets might be fulfilled, "He shall be called a Nazarene."
This prophecy won't take up much time, because you can go through the whole Hebrew Bible, and NOWHERE is it written that the messiah should live in Nazareth, or the he should be called Nazarene.
So the NT is also giving non-existing prophecies.
Next prophecy from the Tanach, as quoted by the NT:
Matthew 26:14-15 "Then one of the twelve, who is called Judas Iscariot, having gone unto the chief priests, said, `What are ye willing to give me, and I will deliver him up to you?' and they weighed out to him thirty silverlings,"
Matthew 27: "3 When Judas, who had betrayed him, saw that Jesus was condemned, he was seized with remorse and returned the thirty silver coins to the chief priests and the elders. 4 "I have sinned," he said, "for I have betrayed innocent blood." "What is that to us?" they replied. "That's your responsibility." 5 So Judas threw the money into the temple and left. Then he went away and hanged himself. 6 The chief priests picked up the coins and said, "It is against the law to put this into the treasury, since it is blood money." 7 So they decided to use the money to buy the potter's field as a burial place for foreigners. 8 That is why it has been called the Field of Blood to this day. 9Then what was spoken by Jeremiah the prophet was fulfilled: "They took the thirty silver coins, the price set on him by the people of Israel, 10 and they used them to buy the potter's field, as the Lord commanded me."
This OT text can by found in Zech 11:12 "I told them, "If you think it best, give me my pay; but if not, keep it." So they paid me thirty pieces of silver. 13 And the LORD said to me, "Throw it to the potter"-the handsome price at which they priced me! So I took the thirty pieces of silver and threw them into the house of the LORD to the potter."
As we see here in Zechariah, there is no messiah to be seen who is being betrayed for 30 pieces of silver. And no potters fields are being bought in Zechariah.
As a matter of fact, in all of this text in Zechariah is no potter to be found.
No potter to be found?
No potter to be found.
The above translation of Zechariah 11:12 is from the New International Version. It says that Zechariah threw the money to the "potter" in the Temple.
In the Hebrew is written "yotseer". That can mean "potter", but it can also mean "treasurer".
In the Temple weren't any potters sitting around. Who was sitting there, was a treasurer, who accepted the gifts for the Temple.
So Zechariah doesn't speak about a potter, but about a treasurer.
This fact is recognized by the Revised Standard Version, it says here "treasurer" in stead of "potter".
Also Youngs Literal Translation says here "treasurer", and also the Contemporary English Version says here "treasury".
The Stone Edition of the Tanach says: "HASHEM (literally: "The Name) said to me, "Throw it to the treasurer of the Precious Stronghold which I have divested from them". So I threw it into the Temple of HASHEM, to the treasurer."
Also the New World Translation of the Watch Tower Society gives a good translation: At that, J-e-h-o-v-a-h said to me: Throw it to the treasurythe majestic value with which I have been valued from their standpoint. Accordingly I took the thirty pieces of silver and threw it into the treasury at the house of J-e-h-o-v-a-h."
So what we see here, is that there is no "potter" in Zechariah, and that the whole NT story about buying land of a potter has no bearing whatsoever on the text in Zechariah.
Also we have here a clear proof that the NT text is so orchestrated that it looks as if it fulfills OT prophecies. But because of the fact that they make here another mistake in the translation, the set up is clear to see for everybody.
And there is more. Look again to Matthew 27 and see what the Christians won't tell you: "9 Then what was spoken by Jeremiah the prophet was fulfilled: "They took the thirty silver coins, the price set on him by the people of Israel, 10 and they used them to buy the potter's field, as the Lord commanded me."
So here we see that Matthew claims that this text comes from Jeremiah, when in truth, it comes from Zechariah.
Another slip up of the New Testament which is supposedly divinely inspired.
Matthew was not capable of naming the right prophet.
And this is supposed to "proof" that JC is the messiah.
Well, with friends like Matthew, you don't need enemies anymore.
Next prophecy from the Tanach, as quoted by the NT:
Luke 24: 44 Then he said to them, "These are my words which I spoke to you, while I was still with you, that everything written about me in the law of Moses and the prophets and the psalms must be fulfilled." 45 Then he opened their minds to understand the scriptures, 46 and said to them, "Thus it is written, that the Christ should suffer and on the third day rise from the dead, 47 and that repentance and forgiveness of sins should be preached in his name to all nations, beginning from Jerusalem.
But the problem is: NOWHERE in the Tanach is it written that the Christ should suffer and on the third day rise from the dead, and that repentance and forgiveness of sins should be preached in his name to all nations, beginning from Jerusalem.
Another NT quote of OT prophecy which is nowhere to be found in the OT.
For Christians, inspired by the NT, doing the same thing, look here:
324x0 - MountZion
.
.
Eliyahu, light unto the nations
"Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE!" Deut 6:4
"All the peoples walk each in the name of his god, but as for us; we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God forever and ever!" Micah 4:5
Edited by Eliyahu, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by Faith, posted 07-26-2013 7:20 PM Faith has not replied

  
Eliyahu
Member (Idle past 2259 days)
Posts: 288
From: Judah
Joined: 07-23-2013


Message 52 of 716 (703691)
07-27-2013 1:46 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by Faith
07-26-2013 7:24 PM


Re: Two Messiahs or Two Advents?
There is a lot of ambiguity in all the messianic passages, but usually the ambiguity itself, along with sudden changes of focus, is what gives the clue that they are prophetic.
Bs'd
There is no change of focus in between Isaiah 52 which speaks about ISRAEL, and Isaiah 53 which speaks about the same.
There is some blurring of the identity of the Messiah WITH Israel as a whole, for instance, because He stands for Israel, He is the fulfillment of the Abrahamic promise to be the blessing to the world that the Jews as a people never were and never will be. If you read those passages honestly most of what is described of the "servant" couldn't possibly describe Israel as a whole.
Here is why Isaiah 53 cannot speak about JC:
Behold, my servant shall act wisely; You believe this is JC. You believe JC is god. So God is his own servant?
When God speaks about "His servant", is God then speaking about himself or about somebody else?
Hint: A three year old can come up with the right answer.
his appearance was so marred, beyond human semblance, and his form beyond that of the children of mankind
When did that happen to JC?
a man of sorrows, and acquainted with sickness When exactly was JC sick?
Like one from whom men hide their faces he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
Wasn’t JC a very popular preacher who entered Jerusalem amongst a big crowd of followers?
He was oppressed and afflicted, yet he did not open his mouth;
He didn’t open his mouth? "When Jesus said this, one of the officials nearby struck him in the face. "Is this the way you answer the high priest?" he demanded. "If I said something wrong," Jesus replied, "testify as to what is wrong. But if I spoke the truth, why did you strike me?" John 18:22
When he was hanging at the cross he accused God, that is himself; he cried out: Why did I forsake myself?
At the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, "MY GOD, MY GOD, WHY HAVE YOU FORSAKEN ME?" Mark 15:34
He didn’t open his mouth?
for the transgression of my people the plague was upon them
This is a very clear proof it speaks about the Jewish people being punished for their own sins. The plague was upon THEM. Plural. So this is not about a singular person, so this is not about the messiah.
The Hebrew word translated as upon them is lamo The same word lamo is also used in Genesis 9:26-27: God shall enlarge Japheth, and he shall dwell in the tents of Shem; and Canaan shall be THEIR servant."
Deut 32:32; and THEIR clusters are bitter. Literally: For them are bitter clusters.
Deut 32: 35 and their destiny will overtake THEM
Deut 33:2; "The LORD came from Sinai and dawned OVER THEM from Seir;
The word lamo which means for them or upon them is also used in Isaiah 16:4, 26:14+16, 35:8, Psalm 119:165.
Some translations, realizing they cannot get around the plural, translate it as: for the transgression of my people, TO WHOM the stroke was due? Like this it is translated by the NASB, AMP, ASV, and in the footnote of the NIV.
But this is a very forced translation. There is nothing due in verse 8.
He was assigned a grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death, though he had done no violence
Done no violence? So he made a whip out of cords, and drove all from the temple area, both sheep and cattle; he scattered the coins of the money changers and overturned their tables. John 2:15
A grave with the wicked? "When it was evening, there came a rich man from Arimathe'a, named Joseph, who also was a disciple of Jesus. He went to Pilate and asked for the body of Jesus. Then Pilate ordered it to be given to him. And Joseph took the body, and wrapped it in a clean linen shroud, and laid it in his own new tomb, which he had hewn in the rock; and he rolled a great stone to the door of the tomb, and departed " Matt 27:57-60
He was in the tomb of a righteous follower of his, and not in the grave with the wicked.
And with the rich in his death The Hebrew word for death is written in the plural, again indicating it does not speak about a singular person. Unless of course Christianity wants to say that their god died several times. If you say this talks about a whole people, then there is no problem.
But, if you want to say this speaks about the messiah, then you are in trouble.
And of course, this word is mistranslated in about every Christian translation to be found.
Yet it was the will of the LORD to crush him; he has put him to grief; So it was the will of God to crush Himself???
when he makes his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his offspring; he shall prolong his days God makes himself an offering for sin? JC sees his offspring? How is he going to do that? He was never married, he never had any offspring.
He shall prolong his days
God is going to prolong his days when he makes himself an offering for sin? And if he doesn’t, God is not going to prolong his days?
But didn’t God die when he was 30?
when he makes his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his offspring
God needs to make himself an offering in order to be able to forgive his creatures? God first has to be murdered by his creatures, and only then he can forgive them?
Therefore I will divide him a portion with the many, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong God is going to give Himself a portion with the strong? When exactly did JC get that?
.
.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by Faith, posted 07-26-2013 7:24 PM Faith has not replied

  
Eliyahu
Member (Idle past 2259 days)
Posts: 288
From: Judah
Joined: 07-23-2013


Message 53 of 716 (703692)
07-27-2013 2:08 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by ramoss
07-27-2013 9:07 AM


Re: Isaiah 52:13-15
Indeed, in 'The Dialogue with Trypho' , Justin Martyr acknowledges that Trypho said that the Jews said it was about the nation of Israel.
Bs'd
Can you give the chapter of that book where I can find that?
In the meantime I'll give the reference of Origin about the same subject:
the Christian father of the church, Origen, born in the year 185, who says that in a debate with wise Jews, they told him that the servant in Isaiah 53 is the nation Israel.
He says that in his book "Contra Celsus". That book can be found online here:
CHURCH FATHERS: Contra Celsum (Origen)
Look in book 1, the end of chapter 54, and the beginning of 55, There Origen writes:
"But He was wounded for our sins, and bruised for our iniquities. The chastisement of our peace was upon Him; by His stripes we were healed. We all, like sheep, wandered from the way. A man wandered in his way, and the Lord delivered Him on account of our sins; and He, because of His evil treatment, opens not His mouth. As a sheep was He led to slaughter; and as a lamb before her shearer is dumb, so He opens not His mouth. In His humiliation His judgment was taken away. And who shall describe His generation? because His life is taken away from the earth; because of the iniquities of My people was He led unto death." Now I remember that, on one occasion, at a disputation held with certain Jews, who were reckoned wise men, I quoted these prophecies; to which my Jewish opponent replied, that these predictions bore reference to the whole people, regarded as one individual, and as being in a state of dispersion and suffering, in order that many proselytes might be gained, on account of the dispersion of the Jews among numerous heathen nations."
This is very clear, Origen, debating Jews, is told by these Jews who are considered wise men, that Isaiah 53 is about Israel.
.
.

This message is a reply to:
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kofh2u
Member (Idle past 3819 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 54 of 716 (703693)
07-27-2013 2:16 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Eliyahu
07-25-2013 1:47 AM


Right,... Jersus merely fulfilled the prophecies for the messiah ben Joseph:
"The Christian messiah did not fulfill the messianic prophecies. "
http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/5849-eschatology
The Messiah will furthermore win the heathen by the spirit of wisdom and righteousness which rests upon him (Sibyllines, iii. 780; Test. Patr., Levi, 18; Judah, 24; Targ. Yer. to Gen. xlix. 12 and Isa. xli. 1).
He will teach the nations the Noachian laws of humanity and make all men disciples of the Lord (Midr. Teh. xxi.).
The wonders of the time of Moses will be repeated on a larger scale in the time of the Messiah (Mek., Beshallaḥ, Shirah, 8, after Micah vii. 15; comp. Hosea ii. 17; Targ.; Tan., Bo, ed. Buber, 6).
What Moses, the first redeemer, did is typical of what the Messiah as the last redeemer will do (Eccl. R. i. 9). The redemption will be in the same month of Nisan, (at the Passover seders), and in the same night (Mek., Bo, 14); the same pillar of cloud will lead Israel (Philo, "De Execrationibus," 8; Targ. Yer. to Isa. xxxv. 10):
the same plagues will be sent upon Israel's foes (Tan., Wa'era, ed. Buber, 15; Bo, 6, 19; Midr. Wayosha'; Jellinek, "B. H." i. 45);
the redeemer will ride on an "donkey" (Zech. ix. 9; comp. Ex. iv. 20);
manna, (transubstantiation?) will again be sent down from heaven (Ps. lxxii. 16; comp. Ps. lxxviii. 24; Syriac Apoc. Baruch, xxix. 8);
and water rise from beneath by miraculous power (Joel iv. [A. V. iii.] 18; comp. Ps. lxxviii. 15 et seq.; Eccl. R. i. 9).
Like Moses, the Messiah will disappear for 40 days after his appearance (Pesiḥ. R. 15; Pesiḥ. v. 49b, after Hosea v. 15).
The same number of people will be redeemed (Sanh. 111a)
and the Song of Moses be replaced by another song , (the New Testament)(Mek., Beshallaḥ, Shirah, 1; Rev. xv. 3).
But, like Moses, the Messiah will die (II Esd. l.c.); the opinion that the Messiah will not taste death (Midr. Teh. lxxii. 17) seems to be of later origin, and will be discussed in connection with the account of the Messiah from the tribe of Joseph or Ephraim (see below).

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kofh2u
Member (Idle past 3819 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 55 of 716 (703694)
07-27-2013 2:22 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by Eliyahu
07-27-2013 1:25 PM


Re: The Suffering Servant messianic passages
[q]Daniel 9 does not speak about THE messiah.
It speaks about TWO (2) other messiahs.
For the finer details look here: Daniel9 - MountZion
[/q]
Yep.
Both Christ and Israel are the sons of God.
The first prophecy that illustrates these two suffering messiahs can be gleaned for Gen 22:
Gen. 22:13 And Abraham lifted up his eyes, and looked, and behold behind him, (an uncastrated male sheep), a ram, (also, figuratively, [ayil: the political chiefs]; symbolic of the European Jewish rabbi), caught in a thicket (of the Nazi persecution), by his horns, (or, his power: [symbolic Dictionary]):
and Abraham, (in analogy to God), went and took, (in place of the lamb of his only son, Isaac), the ram, (the Jewish people and leadership in Europe of the 20th century to come), and offered him, (as a Burnt Offering, the sin offering, the Jewish people themselves: [Exodus 4:22 Then you shall say to Pharaoh, Thus says the Lord, ‘Israel is My son, my first born.’]), up (in holocaust) for a burnt offering (in the crematoriums of WWII, the Burnt Offering of Israel, the chosen son of God in the stead of (Isaac), his (only) son, (in analogy, as was Christ offered for their salvation).
Exodus 4:22
Then say to Pharaoh, 'This is what the LORD says: Israel is my firstborn son,
Gen 22:1 And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt ([nacah: try, prove]; use to show) Abraham, and said unto him, Abraham: and he said, Behold, here I am, (a parody of the name of God, himself, YHVH; [Exodus 3:14]).
Gen. 22:2 And he said, Take now thy son, (as I shall take my own), thine only son, (as shall I take my only son), Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah, (a hill, like Golgotha, the place of the Skull, in Palestinia); and offer him there, (symbolically transferring guilt and sin to him; [Luke 24:47]), for a burnt offering, (a sin offering), upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of.
Gen. 22:3 And Abraham rose up early in the morning, and saddled his asssss, (as would Jesus ride into Jerusalem to be crucified: [John 12:14]) and took two ([Matt 27:38]) of his young men, (as witnesses, as would Jesus take Mary and John to witness the Cross), clave the wood, (as if the pieces of the cross of Isaac's crucifixion), for the burnt offering, (the Jewish ritual for the transferal of sin; [Luke 24:47]), and rose up, and went unto the place of which God had told him.
from the Talmud:
Rabbi Joshua ben Levi said: "It is written in Zechariah (9:9) 'Behold thy king cometh unto thee...lowly riding upon an assss'; while Daniel (7:13} says: 'Behold there came with the clouds of heaven one like unto the Son of man."
If Israel were worthy, 'with the clouds of heaven'; if they were not worthy, lowly, and riding upon an ass. Sanhedrin, 98a
Gen. 22:4 Then, (as example to the years of the ministry of Jesus yet to come), on the third "day," (the third yom, or three durations of time: [Luke 24:46]), Abraham lifted up his eyes, and saw the place afar off, (in the future).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by Eliyahu, posted 07-27-2013 1:25 PM Eliyahu has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 56 by Eliyahu, posted 07-27-2013 4:36 PM kofh2u has replied

  
Eliyahu
Member (Idle past 2259 days)
Posts: 288
From: Judah
Joined: 07-23-2013


(2)
Message 56 of 716 (703700)
07-27-2013 4:36 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by kofh2u
07-27-2013 2:22 PM


Re: The Suffering Servant messianic passages
Bs'd
Ehhh..... kofh2u, is there something you are trying to say?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by kofh2u, posted 07-27-2013 2:22 PM kofh2u has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 57 by kofh2u, posted 07-27-2013 9:44 PM Eliyahu has replied

  
kofh2u
Member (Idle past 3819 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 57 of 716 (703705)
07-27-2013 9:44 PM
Reply to: Message 56 by Eliyahu
07-27-2013 4:36 PM


Re: The Suffering Servant messianic passages
Yes,...
I agree with you that Isa 53 refers to Israel.
It also refers to Jesus.
Gen 22 explains that an only son would be a young lamb, chosen for crucifixion, but in the end, reprieved.
Then, the same thing would happen afterwards to Israel, the mature sheep.
We see in Revelation the prediction repeated again after 32AD:
Rev. 11:7 And when they, (the House of Jacob and the House of Judah, the two candlestick witnesses), shall have finished their testimony (against their own suffering messiah), the (seven headed) beast (of Western civilization) that (had) ascendeth out of the bottomless pit (in The Renaissance) shall make (secular) war against them, (these Jews of the diaspora), and shall overcome them (in 1942), and kill them (with gas and starvation and brutalities).
Rev. 11:8 And, (the House of Jacob and the house of Judah), their dead bodies shall lie in the street (of Nazi Paganism) of the great city (which is the tenth horn of Western Civilization), which spiritually (in its philosophical outlook) is called Sodom, (i.e.; a place practicing pagan sexual license and libidinal excess) and (that ancient place of Jew trust in the shadow of) Egypt, (the time of their confusion: [Isa. 30:2-3]: Egypt, the land of both their beloved Joseph and also, their slavery), where, (in their blindness of scriptural truth) also our Lord was crucified (among them in 32 AD).
Rev. 11:9 And they of the (the gentile) people and kindreds and tongues (in the lands of the Jewish dispersion, from the time of the beginning of the construction of the abomination of the Dome of the Rock in 688AD until 1948, i.e., 1260 years) among them, (during the Diaspora), and nations (both) shall see their dead bodies (in Concentration Camps) three days (of years, i.e.; 1260) and an half, (1942-1945), and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves (but disposed of in the Crematoriums).
Rev. 11:10 And they that dwell upon the earth, (in Nazi Western Europe), shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send (supposed Christian seasonal) gifts one to another; because these two prophets, (the holy people of the book), tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
Rev. 11:11 And after (the Holocaust), three and an half days (of years), the Spirit of life from God entered into them, (the House of Jacob and the House of Judah), and they stood upon their feet (in the land Promised); and great fear fell upon them (in Islam) which saw them, (the prophecy of the Fig Tree, blooming, Hosea 9:10, was fulfilled: [Matt 24:32].
Rev. 11:12 And (the survivors), they (collectively) heard (the commands of Zionism), a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither (to the prophecy fulfilled, where all Nations can see the Jew returned to the Holy Land once again.).
And they ascended up to heaven (by complying with the voice, gathering themselves together in this Zionism) in a cloud (of peoples from Western Europe and all the world); and their enemies (especially in Palestinia) beheld them.
Rev. 11:13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, (i.e.; Israeli Statehood), and the tenth part of the city, (that first small piece of the Promised Land), fell (to the returning Jews), and in the earthquake (of their in-gathering) were slain of (Muslim) men, seven thousand:
and the remnant
(Islamic armies) were affrighted, and (all the Judaeo-Christian world) gave glory to the God of heaven (that prophecy of Daniel, 12:11-12, had been fulfilled as Christ had acknowledged and opposed the Maccabean interpretations).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by Eliyahu, posted 07-27-2013 4:36 PM Eliyahu has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 58 by Eliyahu, posted 07-28-2013 12:46 AM kofh2u has replied

  
Eliyahu
Member (Idle past 2259 days)
Posts: 288
From: Judah
Joined: 07-23-2013


Message 58 of 716 (703706)
07-28-2013 12:46 AM
Reply to: Message 57 by kofh2u
07-27-2013 9:44 PM


Re: The Suffering Servant messianic passages
I agree with you that Isa 53 refers to Israel.
Bs'd
It is hard to get around that simple fact. the proof is overwhelming.
It also refers to Jesus.
For that all proof is lacking.
Gen 22 explains that an only son would be a young lamb, chosen for crucifixion, but in the end, reprieved.
Then, the same thing would happen afterwards to Israel, the mature sheep.
Well, JC was not a sheep. Also, in Gen 22 is no crucifixion to be found.
We see in Revelation the prediction repeated again after 32AD:
Rev. 11:7 And when they, (the House of Jacob and the House of Judah, the two candlestick witnesses), shall have finished their testimony (against their own suffering messiah), the (seven headed) beast (of Western civilization) that (had) ascendeth out of the bottomless pit (in The Renaissance) shall make (secular) war against them, (these Jews of the diaspora), and shall overcome them (in 1942), and kill them (with gas and starvation and brutalities).
Rev. 11:8 And, (the House of Jacob and the house of Judah), their dead bodies shall lie in the street (of Nazi Paganism) of the great city (which is the tenth horn of Western Civilization), which spiritually (in its philosophical outlook) is called Sodom, (i.e.; a place practicing pagan sexual license and libidinal excess) and (that ancient place of Jew trust in the shadow of) Egypt, (the time of their confusion: [Isa. 30:2-3]: Egypt, the land of both their beloved Joseph and also, their slavery), where, (in their blindness of scriptural truth) also our Lord was crucified (among them in 32 AD).
Rev. 11:9 And they of the (the gentile) people and kindreds and tongues (in the lands of the Jewish dispersion, from the time of the beginning of the construction of the abomination of the Dome of the Rock in 688AD until 1948, i.e., 1260 years) among them, (during the Diaspora), and nations (both) shall see their dead bodies (in Concentration Camps) three days (of years, i.e.; 1260) and an half, (1942-1945), and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves (but disposed of in the Crematoriums).
Rev. 11:10 And they that dwell upon the earth, (in Nazi Western Europe), shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send (supposed Christian seasonal) gifts one to another; because these two prophets, (the holy people of the book), tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
Rev. 11:11 And after (the Holocaust), three and an half days (of years), the Spirit of life from God entered into them, (the House of Jacob and the House of Judah), and they stood upon their feet (in the land Promised); and great fear fell upon them (in Islam) which saw them, (the prophecy of the Fig Tree, blooming, Hosea 9:10, was fulfilled: [Matt 24:32].
Rev. 11:12 And (the survivors), they (collectively) heard (the commands of Zionism), a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither (to the prophecy fulfilled, where all Nations can see the Jew returned to the Holy Land once again.).
And they ascended up to heaven (by complying with the voice, gathering themselves together in this Zionism) in a cloud (of peoples from Western Europe and all the world); and their enemies (especially in Palestinia) beheld them.
Rev. 11:13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, (i.e.; Israeli Statehood), and the tenth part of the city, (that first small piece of the Promised Land), fell (to the returning Jews), and in the earthquake (of their in-gathering) were slain of (Muslim) men, seven thousand:
and the remnant (Islamic armies) were affrighted, and (all the Judaeo-Christian world) gave glory to the God of heaven (that prophecy of Daniel, 12:11-12, had been fulfilled as Christ had acknowledged and opposed the Maccabean interpretations).
Well.... be that as it may, still it in no way proofs that Isaiah 53 speaks about the messiah.
.
.
In the service of Y-H-W-H,
Eliyahu, light unto the nations
"Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE!" Deut 6:4
"All the peoples walk each in the name of his god, but as for us; we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God forever and ever!" Micah 4:5
Edited by Eliyahu, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by kofh2u, posted 07-27-2013 9:44 PM kofh2u has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by kofh2u, posted 07-28-2013 11:16 AM Eliyahu has replied
 Message 71 by kofh2u, posted 07-29-2013 6:41 AM Eliyahu has not replied

  
kofh2u
Member (Idle past 3819 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 59 of 716 (703712)
07-28-2013 11:16 AM
Reply to: Message 58 by Eliyahu
07-28-2013 12:46 AM


Re: The Suffering Servant messianic passages
Well.... be that as it may, still it in no way proofs that Isaiah 53 speaks about the messiah.
How can we ignore that messiah ben joseph traditionally was understood to be the suffering messiah?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by Eliyahu, posted 07-28-2013 12:46 AM Eliyahu has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by Eliyahu, posted 07-28-2013 12:21 PM kofh2u has not replied

  
Eliyahu
Member (Idle past 2259 days)
Posts: 288
From: Judah
Joined: 07-23-2013


Message 60 of 716 (703714)
07-28-2013 12:21 PM
Reply to: Message 59 by kofh2u
07-28-2013 11:16 AM


Re: The Suffering Servant messianic passages
How can we ignore that messiah ben joseph traditionally was understood to be the suffering messiah?
Bs'd
How can we not ignore it? Do you base your Christian believe on Jewish commantators?
I don't.
I go by the prophet Isaiah who says that the suffering servant is Israel.
.
.
In the service of Y-H-W-H,
Eliyahu, light unto the nations
"Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE!" Deut 6:4
"All the peoples walk each in the name of his god, but as for us; we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God forever and ever!" Micah 4:5
.
.
Edited by Eliyahu, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
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