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Author Topic:   Why did the Christian messiah fail to fulfill the messianic prophecies?
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 76 of 716 (703773)
07-29-2013 11:44 AM
Reply to: Message 66 by Eliyahu
07-29-2013 12:52 AM


Re: The Suffering Servant messianic passages
It is of course very important to know that Christianity is a false religion, so that you will not be led into idolatry and paganism by it, all the mean while thinking that you are serving God.
I don't see that you've proven or even attempted to demonstrate anything like that. It has been argued that that there are "prophecies" that Jesus did not fulfill. It has been further argued that calling those things prophecies may well be unjustified in the first place. While those arguments might well be enough to explain why Jesus was not what the Jews were expecting, those arguments do not show that Jesus was not divine.
Ask yourself this. If Jesus was the Jewish messiah, would he then be acceptable for worship? If the answer is no, and I believe the answer is no, then you are making a bad argument.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ‘That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.’ Galileo Galilei 1615.
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by Eliyahu, posted 07-29-2013 12:52 AM Eliyahu has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 94 by Eliyahu, posted 07-31-2013 2:49 AM NoNukes has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 77 of 716 (703802)
07-29-2013 3:49 PM
Reply to: Message 69 by Eliyahu
07-29-2013 3:32 AM


Re: The Suffering Servant messianic passages
Im going to take this to your new thread.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by Eliyahu, posted 07-29-2013 3:32 AM Eliyahu has not replied

  
ramoss
Member (Idle past 612 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 78 of 716 (703803)
07-29-2013 3:52 PM
Reply to: Message 71 by kofh2u
07-29-2013 6:41 AM


Re: The Suffering Servant messianic passages
Now, this is the problem. Your 'commentary' is not in the text.. you are chaning the meaning for your prejudices.. and you are pushing events on it that are just plain crazy.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by kofh2u, posted 07-29-2013 6:41 AM kofh2u has replied

Replies to this message:
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kofh2u
Member (Idle past 3820 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 79 of 716 (703807)
07-29-2013 4:24 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by ramoss
07-29-2013 3:52 PM


Re: The Suffering Servant messianic passages
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Now, this is the problem. Your 'commentary' is not in the text.. you are chaning the meaning for your prejudices.. and you are pushing events on it that are just plain crazy.
?
How is what I understand from reading scripture any more or less subjective than what you might say a passage means?
It seems clear once one accepts that Israel is the Suffering Servant that we examine the historical suffering which is on the record.
The culmination of the Holocaust, just before all Jewish flesh might have become extinct if that event had not ended with a remnant that became Israel seems to underscore the messianic nature of the willing walk into the crematoriums.
Isa 53 surely parallels the history of Israel which in 1948 culimated in the promise of Isa 52:
52 Awake, awake; put on thy strength, O Zion; put on thy beautiful garments, O Jerusalem, the holy city: for henceforth there shall no more come into thee the uncircumcised and the unclean.
2 Shake thyself from the dust; arise, and sit down, O Jerusalem: loose thyself from the bands of thy neck, O captive daughter of Zion.
3 For thus saith the Lord, Ye have sold yourselves for nought; and ye shall be redeemed without money.

This message is a reply to:
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kofh2u
Member (Idle past 3820 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 80 of 716 (703808)
07-29-2013 4:29 PM
Reply to: Message 64 by Iblis
07-28-2013 10:17 PM


Re: who was Jesus...
Excellent work, Holmes!
You didn't take the trouble to compose that yourself, did you?
Compose 1Kings and the Gospel story?
I merely compared the first visit of Elijah in 800 BC to the evidence that he apparently returned in 32AD unless he was an imposter who just did the same things again.
He also ritualized the Eucharist wherein he forever after answered the long debated question of whether the 5th Cup of wine set out for Elijah ever Passover ought be poured out or consumed.

This message is a reply to:
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kofh2u
Member (Idle past 3820 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 81 of 716 (703810)
07-29-2013 4:34 PM
Reply to: Message 68 by Phat
07-29-2013 2:05 AM


Re: Two Messiahs or Two Advents?
jar writes:
Has Jesus come as the Warrior King?
Not yet.
What about the war against mythological Gods in the Gentile culture of Greece and Rome???
Rev. 6:12 And I beheld, (in the days of Theodocius, who established the Holy Roman, Catholic, Apostolic Church), when he, (the Lamb of the tribe of Judah, the off-spring of the root of David;[Rev 5:5]), had opened the sixth seal (of scripture), and, lo, there was a great (sociological) earthquaqe (of institutionalized religious change); and the Sun (Signs of Astrology) became (as) black as (the) sackcloth of (a nun's) hair, and the moon became as blood (of Christ, to determine the very day of the Christian Passover).
Rev. 6:13 And the stars' (i.e.; the twelve constellations of Sun Signs) of heaven fell (from popular grace) unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, (ruined), when she is (destructively) shaken of a mighty wind.
Rev. 6:14 And (Astrology) departed (from popular practice) as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every (Pagan religion and secret society) were moved out of their places.
Rev. 6:15 And (1) the kings of the earth, (POLITICIANS), and (2) the great men, (STATESMEN), and (3) the rich men, (ECONOMIC BARONS), and (4) the chief captains, (PRIESTHOODS), and (5) the mighty men, (MILITARY LEADERS), and (6) every bondman, (CRAFTSMAN), and (7) every free man, (PEASANT), hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks (of the pagan temples);
Rev. 6:16 And said to the mountains (of the previous social institutions) and rocks (of cultural norms), Fall on us, (help!), and hide us from the face (of Papal judgment) of Universal Catholicism), him that sitteth on the throne (Theodocius, who established Christian Rome) and from the (words of) wrath of the lamb, (the Word of the New Testament):
Rev. 6:17 For the great day of his wrath, (the one thousand year reign predicted), is come; and who, (what other God or religion), shall be able to stand (during these Dark Ages)?
Note, Catholic Encyclopedia:
With the overthrow of the old Roman Empire and the victory of
Christianity, astrology lost its importance in the centers of Christian civilization in the West. The last known astrologer of the old world was Johannes Laurentius (sometimes called Lydus) of Philadelphia in Lydia, who lived A.D. 490-565.

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Replies to this message:
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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 82 of 716 (703814)
07-29-2013 4:47 PM
Reply to: Message 81 by kofh2u
07-29-2013 4:34 PM


Re: Two Messiahs or Two Advents?
And to the best of my knowledge nothing in Revelation has ever happened.
Plus, all the additional crap you add in is just plain silly.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by kofh2u, posted 07-29-2013 4:34 PM kofh2u has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 83 by kofh2u, posted 07-29-2013 5:20 PM jar has replied
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kofh2u
Member (Idle past 3820 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 83 of 716 (703817)
07-29-2013 5:20 PM
Reply to: Message 82 by jar
07-29-2013 4:47 PM


Re: Two Messiahs or Two Advents?
And to the best of my knowledge nothing in Revelation has ever happened.
Plus, all the additional crap you add in is just plain silly.
True, a whole large body of people read prophecies and yet fail to their knowledge compare the history which has transpired against the verses right within the context, word and phrase by phrase.
To them, the bracketed Historical explanations, right inside the passages themselves, is just crap that contradicts their own private interpretations handed down for centuries before the events actually were fulfilled.
To them, they are blind to the correspondences and deaf to the reports of events already taken place.
The are still generally claiming that a 1000 year reign of Jesus one "god" over a previous whole Roman world full of Mythology never took place:
Rev. 20:4 And I saw thrones (of Universal Christian authority) and they, (the 144,000 monks of Catholic monasticism: [Rev14:4]), sat upon them, (i.e.; Christianity, as mandated by Emperor Theo I, was the ONLY legal religion in the Empire, after 380AD), and (theocratic) judgment was given unto them (in the days of Catholic Monasticism): and I saw the souls, (the spirit-like psyches or thinking) of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the (one) word of God, (Truth), and which had not worshipped (by participation in the paganistic practices and sexual excesses fueling) the beast (that was Roman Culture, including the economic system which had been based upon selfish self-interest), neither his image (on his coinage), neither had received his mark (of ledgered accounts recorded) upon their foreheads, or in (wages in) their hands (those monks living in moneyless monastic environments);
and they, (the saints/apostles), lived (as angels in the minds of the Christians who have followed since the appearance of the Gospels in 54AD, i.e., those beheaded saints, in the memories of the congregations who worshipped in churches built upon the bones of their remains)...
.... and (they) reigned (in Monasticism) with Christ a thousand years, (from 54 AD upon the appearance of the Holy Comforter, until 1054 AD with the first Schism of Greek Orthodoxy).
What we saw in the Fall of Rome as Christianity tore down the whole ancient Institution of Religion over all of Europe was the Temple of the New Jerusalem rise up, like a Sukkah, over all the known world as Jesus had predicted:
Zech. 13:1 In that day there shall be a fountain opened, (the New Testament i.e.; the holy comforter), to the house of David,(i.e.; Christianity), and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem,(those who say they are Jews but are not: [Rev 3:9]), for sin and for uncleanness.
Zech. 13:2 And it shall come to pass in that day, (380 AD, when Emperor Theodosius I enacted a law establishing Catholic Christianity as the official religion of the Roman Empire and ordering others to be called heretics), saith the LORD of hosts, that I will cut off the names of the idols out of the land, and (Paganism) shall no more be remembered: and also I will cause the prophets, (especially of Astrology), and the unclean spirit(of Libidinal sexual excesses) to pass out of the land.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by jar, posted 07-29-2013 4:47 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 86 by jar, posted 07-29-2013 8:13 PM kofh2u has replied

  
kofh2u
Member (Idle past 3820 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 84 of 716 (703818)
07-29-2013 5:47 PM
Reply to: Message 73 by Faith
07-29-2013 7:17 AM


Re: Isaiah 53 is about Jesus
Isa. 53:5 But, (Israel), he was wounded (in Diaspora) for our (political, religious, cultural, and economic) transgressions, he, (Israel), was bruised (in anti-Semitism) for our (political, cultural, religious, and economic) iniquities (of centuries past): the chastisement of our peace (in the Middle East) was upon him, (Israel, of 1948); and with his, (Israel's), stripes, (since 1948), we are (and shall be) healed.
What a bunch of nonsense. How can it possibly be that Israel was wounded for the transgressions of others? He was wounded FOR our transgressions, not BY our transgressions.
The "we" in the passage refers to "we Jews of the Diaspora," who transgressed culturally, religiously, economically, and politically, throughout the centuries as attested to be the Old testament again and again.
Isa. 53:5 But (Israel, the Nation and Country), he, was wounded (in Diaspora) for our (i.e., we Jews of the Diaspora for our political, religious, cultural, and economic) transgressions, he, (Israel), was bruised (in anti-Semitism) for our (we Jews of the Diaspora for our political, cultural, religious, and economic) iniquities (of centuries past): the chastisement of our peace (we Jews now in the Middle East) was upon him, (Israel, of pre-1948); and with his, (Israel's), stripes, (afer 1948), we are (and shall be) healed.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by Faith, posted 07-29-2013 7:17 AM Faith has not replied

  
kofh2u
Member (Idle past 3820 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 85 of 716 (703819)
07-29-2013 5:53 PM
Reply to: Message 74 by Eliyahu
07-29-2013 8:22 AM


Re: Isaiah 53 is about Jesus
When we fill in the Jewish people in this text,: "But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities, the chastisement of our peace was upon him, and with his stripes we are healed." we also have to ask: who is the 'our' and the 'we'? Here is the prophet Isaiah speaking as a part of the Jewish people. So also the 'we' points to the Jewish people. Now in stead of the metaphor, 'the servant', and the "we", let's fill in the Jewish people and see what we get: But [the Jewish people] were wounded for the transgressions of [the Jewish people], [the Jewish people] were bruised for the iniquities of [the Jewish people], the chastisement of the peace of [the Jewish people] was upon [the Jewish people], and with the stripes of [the Jewish people] [the Jewish people] are healed.
Exactly...
But, the salvation of the remnant of the Jews from the Holocaust and the return of the Jews of the diaspora to the nation of Israel was due totally to the conversion of Europe to a Christianity which supported that end and new beginning.
Hence, when we read Isa 53 from the point of Jew of a particular suffering servant, we see it also refers us to Jesus, the messiah ben Joseph.

This message is a reply to:
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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(2)
Message 86 of 716 (703825)
07-29-2013 8:13 PM
Reply to: Message 83 by kofh2u
07-29-2013 5:20 PM


kofh2u posts are just bullshit trolling
And so you add more bullshit and nonsense.
Troll

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by kofh2u, posted 07-29-2013 5:20 PM kofh2u has replied

Replies to this message:
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kofh2u
Member (Idle past 3820 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 87 of 716 (703844)
07-30-2013 12:38 AM
Reply to: Message 86 by jar
07-29-2013 8:13 PM


Re: kofh2u posts are just bullshit trolling
And so you add more bullshit and nonsense.
Some people will always say they disagree.
But clearly Isa 53 fits well with defining the "we" and "our" as the wayward Jews while that singular generation of the Holocaust was the suffering Israel that so affected the world Conscious of Christianity that they were supported in establishing the State of Israel.
Consider the whole Chapter 53:
Isa. 53:1 Who, (but the Christians), hath believed (i.e.; the Jewish prophets over the ages), our report (in the Bible)? and to whom (if not the gentile) is the (Christian) arm of the LORD, (Yahweh), revealed (to the non-Jew)?
Isa. 53:2 For (the State of Israel), he shall grow up before him, (these Christian Nations to come), as a tender plant (in 1948 AD), and as a root (from the past) out of a dry (and barren Holy) ground: (this new State), he hath no (political) form nor comeliness (of economic might); and when we, (the homeless Jews of 1945), shall see him, (the State of Israel), there is no beauty (like in Western Europe) that we (homeless Jews of 1945) should desire to (visit) him, (The State of Israel).
Isa. 53:3 He, (the State of Israel), is despised (by anti-Semites) and rejected of (Muslim) men; (Israel), a man of sorrows (long endured), and acquainted with grief (from the Holocaust): and we, (the homeless Jews of 1945), hid (in diaspora) as it were our faces from him, (the Holy Land); he, (that Promised Land), was despised (for two thousand years), and (during our millennium of Universal Christianity) we, (the now homeless Jews of 1945 had) esteemed him, (Zion), not.
Isa. 53:4 Surely, (in the Middle East), he, (this State of Israel), hath borne (in terrorist extortion) our (present day) griefs (now also upon us), and carried (the Arab hatred now) our sorrows (presently visited upon America and the West): yet we , (the homeless Jews of 1945), did esteem him (in our view, falsely) stricken (for deicide), smitten of God (in rejection), and afflicted (for the crime of Crucifixion).
Isa. 53:5 But, (Israel), he was wounded (in Diaspora) for our (political and economic) transgressions, he, (Israel), was bruised (in anti-semitism) for our (political, cultural, religious, and economic) iniquities (of centuries past): the chastisement of our peace (in the Middle East) was upon him, (Israel); and with his, (Israel), stripes, (since 1948), we are (and shall be) healed.
Isa. 53:6 All we , (today’s Jews), like sheep have gone astray, (Secular ); we have turned (inward) every one to his own (theology of the) "way"; and the LORD hath laid on him, (this State of Israel), the iniquity (we are accused of), of us all (Jews, in general everywhere).
Isa. 53:7 (This newly reformed State of Israel), He was oppressed (for fifty years), and he was afflicted (with daily terror), yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb, (Jesus/Isaac: [Gen 22:1-4]), to the slaughter, and as a sheep, (i.e.; ram/Holocaust: [Gen 22:13]) before her (muslim) shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.
Isa. 53:8 He, (Israel), was taken from prison (of concentration camps) and from (Nazi) judgment: and who shall declare (the truth of the Holocaust), his (lost) generation, (of the twentieth century)? For (by the Romans that held sway over all the Western Nations), he was cut off (in diaspora) out of the (promised) land (Israel), of the (the country where he was) living (since 1000 BC): for the transgression (of a revolt) of my people (against the power of a universal Roman Imperialism) was he stricken (in 70 AD).
Isa. 53:9 And he made his grave (in our foreign nations for 2000 years) with the wicked (pagan nations of the past), and with the rich (Western Europeans) in his death (there); because he had done no violence (in these foreign lands), neither was any (political or religious) deceit in his mouth (for he was long sequestered in his ghettos).
Isa. 53:10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him (for these 2000 years); he hath put him, (the Jew), to grief: when thou, (O' Western Europe), shalt make his (ethnic) soul (a cleansing), an offering for (the European societal) sin (in your Holocaust), he, (in 1948 AD), shall see his seed (of Abraham enlarged), he shall prolong his days, and (the budding Statehood), the pleasure of the LORD (through prophecy), shall prosper in his hand.
Isa. 53:11 He, (Israel), shall see, (in hind sight) of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied (with the reward of the lands promised long ago): by his (Old Testament) knowledge shall my righteous servant, (Isreal), justify many (Gentiles, through their Christian faith in prophecy); for he, (this New State of Israel), shall bear (through the example of Israel's repentance and recognition of their Elijah of 32AD) their (own Christian) iniquities, (repeated in their own falling away from Christianity since the Renaissance: [Rev 20:3]).
Rev. 20:3 And cast him, (the libidinal, satanic cultural influence), into the bottomless pit (of time), and shut him up (for the thousand years of the Dark Age of Monasticism), and set a seal, (the Cross), upon him, that he, (the libidinal, satanic cultural influence), should deceive the (once pagan) nations no more, till the thousand years (of the Dark Age of Monasticism) should be fulfilled: and after that, (in the Renaissance), he must be loosed a little season.
Isa. 53:12 Therefore will I divide (with) him, (these Israeli people), a portion (of the reward) with the great (multitude of Christianity), and he, (these Israeli people), shall divide the spoil (of world-wide Judeo-Christianity) with the (1.44 Billion) strong (Christian Nations of the world); because, (in Holocaust), he hath poured out his soul, (long loyal, Old Testament people) unto death (in many inquisitions over time): and he, (as a Jew, far removed from the actual event), was numbered (in every generation) with the transgressors (who opposed Christ); and he bare the sin of many (priests of that day who had placed the curse, "let his blood be upon us and our children"), and, (through Hebrew Christianity), made intercession for the (Jewish) transgressors (against their own Elijah in that day long ago, 32 AD).
Edited by kofh2u, : No reason given.
Edited by kofh2u, : No reason given.

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 Message 86 by jar, posted 07-29-2013 8:13 PM jar has not replied

  
kofh2u
Member (Idle past 3820 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 88 of 716 (703854)
07-30-2013 6:46 AM


A thorough exegesis with other propecies...
We need to revisit Gen 22:13 and see the meaning behind the strange and once perplexing idea that God would have Abraham, the ultimate father of Israel, the nation, offer up the lamb of his only son, but follow that by picking a grown adult sheep to follow through:
Gen. 22:13 And Abraham lifted up his eyes, and looked, and behold behind him, (an uncastrated male sheep), a ram, (also, figuratively, [ayil: the political chiefs]; symbolic of the European Jewish rabbi), caught in a thicket (of the Nazi persecution), by his horns, (or, his power: [symbolic Dictionary]):
and Abraham, (in analogy to God), went and took, (in place of the lamb of his only son, Isaac), the ram, (the Jewish people and leadership in Europe of the 20th century to come), and offered him, (as a Burnt Offering, the sin offering, the Jewish people themselves: [Exodus 4:22 Then you shall say to Pharaoh, Thus says the Lord, ‘Israel is My son, my first born.’]), up (in holocaust) for a burnt offering (in the crematoriums of WWII, the Burnt Offering of Israel, the chosen son of God in the stead of (Isaac), his (only) son, (in analogy, as was Christ offered for their salvation).
Exodus 4:22
Then say to Pharaoh, 'This is what the LORD says: Israel is my firstborn son,

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 89 of 716 (703881)
07-30-2013 12:13 PM
Reply to: Message 75 by jar
07-29-2013 8:36 AM


Re: Two Messiahs or Two Advents?
jar writes:
So then Jesus is still a failed Messiah.
Just out of curiosity, how can you call yourself a creedal Christian? What do your creeds say?
If Jesus was simply human on earth, why would he be the one and only son?What is the significance of the man? Was He without sin or in your belief did he sin as much as any of us.....

This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by jar, posted 07-29-2013 8:36 AM jar has replied

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 90 of 716 (703882)
07-30-2013 12:18 PM
Reply to: Message 82 by jar
07-29-2013 4:47 PM


Re: Two Messiahs or Two Advents?
jar writes:
And to the best of my knowledge nothing in Revelation has ever happened.
NIV writes:
Rev 1:17-18-- When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: "Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last. I am the Living One; I was dead, and behold I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.
What do your creeds say about this....seems as if it has happened....

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