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Author Topic:   Why did the Christian messiah fail to fulfill the messianic prophecies?
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 121 of 716 (704072)
08-02-2013 11:25 PM
Reply to: Message 113 by PaulK
08-02-2013 11:08 AM


Re: The Suffering Servant messianic passages speak about ISRAEL
That's a very different question to whether Jesus was The Messiah or not. Really it's off-topic.
Perhaps it is off topic. But it is totally responsive to the discussion to the points being raised here.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ‘That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.’ Galileo Galilei 1615.
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 113 by PaulK, posted 08-02-2013 11:08 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 123 by PaulK, posted 08-03-2013 2:11 AM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 122 of 716 (704073)
08-03-2013 2:07 AM
Reply to: Message 118 by NoNukes
08-02-2013 7:44 PM


Re: The Suffering Servant messianic passages speak about ISRAEL
quote:
Why would I accept that assumption in an argument that is essentially about whether Judaism is correct?
That's a hypothetical question. The real question is why you would insist on talking at cross-purposes for no reason.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 118 by NoNukes, posted 08-02-2013 7:44 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 124 by NoNukes, posted 08-03-2013 4:54 PM PaulK has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 123 of 716 (704074)
08-03-2013 2:11 AM
Reply to: Message 121 by NoNukes
08-02-2013 11:25 PM


Re: The Suffering Servant messianic passages speak about ISRAEL
quote:
Perhaps it is off topic. But it is totally responsive to the discussion to the points being raised here.
Then I guess that you are going to have to explain the relevance - because I can't see any.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 121 by NoNukes, posted 08-02-2013 11:25 PM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 124 of 716 (704093)
08-03-2013 4:54 PM
Reply to: Message 122 by PaulK
08-03-2013 2:07 AM


Re: The Suffering Servant messianic passages speak about ISRAEL
The real question is why you would insist on talking at cross-purposes for no reason.
We are having a debate which means that I might choose to explore areas on which we disagree. At some point, we will of course have to stop arguing and drop things. You think I am beyond that point, but that's just your opinion.
I believe a perfectly good response to the question of why the Christian messiah failed to fulfill the messianic prophecies is that Jesus is not the Jewish messiah.
I made that argument and the OP responds to the effect that Jesus not being the messiah means that he is not worthy of worship. Now maybe a response to that statement is off topic, but it is certainly no more off topic than is the OP's comment.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ‘That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.’ Galileo Galilei 1615.
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 122 by PaulK, posted 08-03-2013 2:07 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 125 by PaulK, posted 08-03-2013 5:01 PM NoNukes has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 125 of 716 (704095)
08-03-2013 5:01 PM
Reply to: Message 124 by NoNukes
08-03-2013 4:54 PM


Re: The Suffering Servant messianic passages speak about ISRAEL
quote:
I believe a perfectly good response to the question of why the Christian messiah failed to fulfill the messianic prophecies is that Jesus is not the Jewish messiah.
And I'd agree. But it's a problematic answer for a Christian, in so much as it says that Jesus is not the Christ.
quote:
I made that argument and the OP responds to the effect that Jesus not being the messiah means that he is not worthy of worship
Actually, it looks to me as if you made that up. He only argued that Christianity is a fake religion, and in so far as Christianity is based on the idea that Jesus is the Jewish Messiah you seem to agree.
Edited by PaulK, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 124 by NoNukes, posted 08-03-2013 4:54 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 126 by NoNukes, posted 08-03-2013 5:30 PM PaulK has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 126 of 716 (704097)
08-03-2013 5:30 PM
Reply to: Message 125 by PaulK
08-03-2013 5:01 PM


Re: The Suffering Servant messianic passages speak about ISRAEL
And I'd agree. But it's a problematic answer for a Christian, in so much as it says that Jesus is not the Christ.
I disagree, but isn't it your position that pursuing this point is off topic?
Most Christians handle this issue by insisting that Christ will handle the unfulfilled portions in a 'Second Coming'. I personally don't see the point in assuming any such thing. I simply do not care that Jesus is not the Jewish Messiah.
Actually, it looks to me as if you made that up. He only argued that Christianity is a fake religion,
Well, you are simply wrong about that. He stated in Message 66 that worship of Jesus was idolatry, which led to my pointing out that his arguments up to that point, even if taken as correct, did not require such a conclusion. At some point during that line of discussion, you intervened to tell me Eliyahu was simply assuming that Judaism was correct. Thanks, but I already knew that.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ‘That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.’ Galileo Galilei 1615.
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 125 by PaulK, posted 08-03-2013 5:01 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 127 by PaulK, posted 08-03-2013 5:42 PM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 127 of 716 (704098)
08-03-2013 5:42 PM
Reply to: Message 126 by NoNukes
08-03-2013 5:30 PM


Re: The Suffering Servant messianic passages speak about ISRAEL
quote:
I disagree, but isn't it your position that pursuing this point is off topic?
Certainly not. I've never suggested any such thing.
quote:
Well, you are simply wrong about that. He stated in Message 66 that worship of Jesus was idolatry, which led to my pointing out that his arguments up to that point, even if taken as correct, did not require such a conclusion. At some point during that line of discussion, you intervened to tell me Eliyahu was simply assuming that Judaism was correct. Thanks, but I already knew that.
Obviously you didn't understand that, or you wouldn't have responded as you did. If Christianity is false (and you really need to address the issues there rather than just saying that you personally don't care if you want to argue) then it follows that Jesus isn't God.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 126 by NoNukes, posted 08-03-2013 5:30 PM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 129 by Eliyahu, posted 08-04-2013 2:03 AM PaulK has not replied

  
kofh2u
Member (Idle past 3820 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 128 of 716 (704103)
08-03-2013 7:58 PM
Reply to: Message 120 by NoNukes
08-02-2013 11:23 PM


Re: The Suffering Servant messianic passages speak about ISRAEL
Israel, that Suffering Servant, now has manifested as the messiah
What? I though you were the messiah???
Apparently you were wrong on that, because HE (Israel) IS RISEN (i.e.; 1948)
Rev. 11:7 And when they, (the House of Jacob, i.e.; all of the ten tribes that vanished, and the House of Judah, i.e.; the the Jews of today, the two witnesses), shall have finished their testimony (against their own suffering messiah), the (seven headed) beast (of Western civilization) that (had) ascendeth out of the bottomless pit (in The Renaissance) shall make (secular) war against them, (these Jews of the diaspora), and shall overcome them (in 1942), and kill them (with gas and starvation and brutalities).
Rev. 11:8 And, (the House of Jacob and the house of Judah), their dead bodies shall lie in the street (of Nazi Paganism) of the great city (which is the tenth horn of Western Civilization), which spiritually (in its philosophical outlook) is called Sodom, (i.e.; a place practicing pagan sexual license and libidinal excess) and (that ancient place of Jew trust in the shadow of) Egypt, (the time of their confusion: [Isa. 30:2-3]: Egypt, the land of both their beloved Joseph and also, their slavery), where, (in their blindness of scriptural truth) also our Lord was crucified (among them in 32 AD).
Rev. 11:9 And they of the (the gentile) people and kindreds and tongues (in the lands of the Jewish dispersion, from the time of the beginning of the construction of the abomination of the Dome of the Rock in 688AD until 1948, i.e., 1260 years) among them, (during the Diaspora), and nations (both) shall see their dead bodies (in Concentration Camps) three days (of years, i.e.; 1260) and an half, (1942-1945), and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves (but disposed of in the Crematoriums).
Rev. 11:10 And they that dwell upon the earth, (in Nazi Western Europe), shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send (supposed Christian seasonal) gifts one to another; because these two prophets, (the holy people of the book), tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
Ezek 36:24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.
Ezek 36:28 And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.
Rev. 11:11 And after (the Holocaust), three and an half days (of years), the Spirit of life from God entered into them, (the House of Jacob and the House of Judah), and they stood upon their feet (in the land Promised); and great fear fell upon them (in Islam) which saw them, (the prophecy of the Fig Tree, blooming, Hosea 9:10, was fulfilled: [Matt 24:32].
Rev. 11:12 And (the survivors), they (collectively) heard (the commands of Zionism), a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither (to the prophecy fulfilled, where all Nations can see the Jew returned to the Holy Land once again.).
And they ascended up to heaven (by complying with the voice, gathering themselves together in this Zionism) in a cloud (of peoples from Western Europe and all the world); and their enemies (especially in Palestinia) beheld them.
Rev. 11:13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, (i.e.; Israeli Statehood), and the tenth part of the city, (that first small piece of the Promised Land), fell (to the returning Jews), and in the earthquake (of their in-gathering) were slain of (Muslim) men, seven thousand:
and the remnant
(Islamic armies) were affrighted, and (all the Judaeo-Christian world) gave glory to the God of heaven (that prophecy of Daniel, 12:11-12, had been fulfilled as Christ had acknowledged and opposed the Maccabean interpretations).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 120 by NoNukes, posted 08-02-2013 11:23 PM NoNukes has not replied

  
Eliyahu
Member (Idle past 2261 days)
Posts: 288
From: Judah
Joined: 07-23-2013


Message 129 of 716 (704116)
08-04-2013 2:03 AM
Reply to: Message 127 by PaulK
08-03-2013 5:42 PM


Re: The Suffering Servant messianic passages speak about ISRAEL
Obviously you didn't understand that, or you wouldn't have responded as you did. If Christianity is false (and you really need to address the issues there rather than just saying that you personally don't care if you want to argue) then it follows that Jesus isn't God.
Bs'd
Of course JC isn't God. There is only one God who IS one, and that is Y-H-W-H:
Who is the God of Israel? The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob?
Christianity is very confused about this. A confusion also caused by bad Bible translations. In almost all translations the four lettered name of God, Y-H-W-H, which appears in the Hebrew Bible almost 7000 times, is not mentioned, but replaced by "the LORD".
But here are some Biblical texts which point out WHO is the God of Israel. In these verses the letters of the name of God are written, like in the original Hebrew.
Exodus 29:46 They will know that I am Y-H-W-H their God, who brought them out of Egypt so that I might dwell among them. I am Y-H-W-H their God.
Numbers 15:41 I am Y-H-W-H your God, who brought you out of Egypt to be your God. I am Y-H-W-H your God.
Deuteronomy 10:20-21 Fear Y-H-W-H your God and serve him. Hold fast to him and take your oaths in his name. He is your praise; he is your God, who performed for you those great and awesome wonders you saw with your own eyes.
Joshua 24:18 We too will serve Y-H-W-H , because he is our God.
II Samuel 22:32 For who is God besides Y-H-W-H ?
I Chronicles 16:14 He is Y-H-W-H our God; his judgments are in all the earth
II Chronicles 13:10 As for us, Y-H-W-H is our God, and we have not forsaken him
Psalm 31:14 But I trust in you, O Y-H-W-H; I say, "You are my God.
Psalm 89:6 For who in the skies above can compare with Y-H-W-H? Who is like Y-H-W-H among the heavenly beings?
Psalm 91:2 I will say of Y-H-W-H , "He is my refuge and my fortress, my God, in whom I trust.
Psalm 100:3 Know that Y-H-W-H is God. It is he who made us.
Psalm 105:7 He is Y-H-W-H our God; his judgments are in all the earth;
Psalm 118:27 Y-H-W-H is God, and he has made his light shine upon us.
Psalm 140:6 O Y-H-W-H, I say to you, "You are my God
Isaiah 25:1 O Y-H-W-H, you are my God.
Isaiah 41:13 For I am Y-H-W-H , your God;
Isaiah 43:3 For I am Y-H-W-H , your God, the Holy One of Israel, your Savior;
Isaiah 51:15 For I am Y-H-W-H your God, who churns up the sea so that its waves roar- Y-H-W-H Almighty is his name
Jeremiah 3:22-23 Yes, we will come to you, for you are Y-H-W-H our God
Jeremiah 10:10 But Y-H-W-H is the true God; he is the living God, the eternal King.;
Jeremiah 31:18 Restore me, and I will return, because you are Y-H-W-H my God.
Habakkuk 1:12 O Y-H-W-H, are you not from everlasting? My God, my Holy One, we will not die.
.
.
And is there, except for this God Y-H-W-H, any other god?
.
.
Deuteronomy 4:35 You were shown these things so that you might know that Y-H-W-H is God; besides him there is no other.
Deuteronomy 4:39 Acknowledge and take to heart this day that Y-H-W-H is God in heaven above and on the earth below. There is no other.
II Samuel 7:22 How great you are, O Sovereign Y-H-W-H! There is no one like you, and there is no God but you, as we have heard with our own ears.
I Kings 8:60 so that all the peoples of the earth may know that Y-H-W-H is God and that there is no other.
I Chronicles 17:20 There is no one like you, O Y-H-W-H, and there is no God but you, as we have heard with our own ears.
II Chronicles 6:14 O Y-H-W-H, God of Israel, there is no God like you in heaven or on earth.
Nehemiah 9:6 You alone are Y-H-W-H.
Isaiah 45:21-23 You are my witnesses," declares Y-H-W-H, "and my servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after me."
Isaiah 44:6 This is what Y-H-W-H says- Israel's King and Redeemer, Y-H-W-H Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God.
Isaiah 45:5-6 I am Y-H-W-H , and there is no other; apart from me there is no God. I will strengthen you, though you have not acknowledged me, so that from the rising of the sun to the place of its setting men may know there is none besides me."
Isaiah 45:21-23 Declare what is to be, present it- let them take counsel together. Who foretold this long ago, who declared it from the distant past? Was it not I, Y-H-W-H? And there is no God apart from me, a righteous God and a Savior; there is none but me. Turn to me and be saved, all you ends of the earth; for I am God, and there is no other.
Joel 2:27 Then you will know that I am in Israel, that I am Y-H-W-H your God, and that there is no other;
Exodus 20:1-3 And God spoke all these words: "I am Y-H-W-H your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery. YOU SHALL HAVE NO OTHER GODS BEFORE ME.
.
.
In the service of Y-H-W-H,
Eliyahu, light unto the nations
"Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE!" Deut 6:4
"All the peoples walk each in the name of his god, but as for us; we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God forever and ever!" Micah 4:5
.
.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 127 by PaulK, posted 08-03-2013 5:42 PM PaulK has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 130 by kofh2u, posted 08-05-2013 2:13 AM Eliyahu has replied

  
kofh2u
Member (Idle past 3820 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 130 of 716 (704144)
08-05-2013 2:13 AM
Reply to: Message 129 by Eliyahu
08-04-2013 2:03 AM


Re: The Suffering Servant messianic passages speak about ISRAEL
Of course JC isn't God. There is only one God who IS one, and that is Y-H-W-H:
JC is consistently referred to as the son of god, which ONLY makes sense when he tells us in John 14:6, that he personifies Truth, the ideal, as a concept.
Truth is the savior for mankind, as I am certain you will agree.
Lies and fantasy world are the road to insanity and extinction.
But, by identifying the son, Jesus defines the long ineffable God of the Jews as Reality, the almighty Force behind the ever unfolding next frame of existence.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 129 by Eliyahu, posted 08-04-2013 2:03 AM Eliyahu has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 131 by Eliyahu, posted 08-05-2013 3:36 AM kofh2u has replied
 Message 132 by ramoss, posted 08-05-2013 9:51 AM kofh2u has replied

  
Eliyahu
Member (Idle past 2261 days)
Posts: 288
From: Judah
Joined: 07-23-2013


Message 131 of 716 (704145)
08-05-2013 3:36 AM
Reply to: Message 130 by kofh2u
08-05-2013 2:13 AM


Re: The Suffering Servant messianic passages speak about ISRAEL
Bs'd
JC didn't fulfill the messianic prophecies, so he was NOT the messiah.
JC didn't fulfill his own prophecies to come back within one generation with pomp and power, to judge the world, so he was a false prophet.
Enough said.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 130 by kofh2u, posted 08-05-2013 2:13 AM kofh2u has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 134 by kofh2u, posted 08-06-2013 8:22 PM Eliyahu has replied

  
ramoss
Member (Idle past 613 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 132 of 716 (704149)
08-05-2013 9:51 AM
Reply to: Message 130 by kofh2u
08-05-2013 2:13 AM


Re: The Suffering Servant messianic passages speak about ISRAEL
Actually, that is totally and utterly incorrect. The term 'Son of God' was a well known idiom. It meant someone who was righteous.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 130 by kofh2u, posted 08-05-2013 2:13 AM kofh2u has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 133 by Eliyahu, posted 08-06-2013 11:59 AM ramoss has not replied
 Message 135 by kofh2u, posted 08-06-2013 8:26 PM ramoss has not replied

  
Eliyahu
Member (Idle past 2261 days)
Posts: 288
From: Judah
Joined: 07-23-2013


Message 133 of 716 (704220)
08-06-2013 11:59 AM
Reply to: Message 132 by ramoss
08-05-2013 9:51 AM


Re: The Suffering Servant messianic passages speak about ISRAEL
Bs'd
The term son of God is used for people or angels who are especially beloved or favored by God, as we can see in Genesis 6:4, Job 1:6, 2:1, 38:7, and Psalm 82:6, 89:6, and many other verses.
.
.
In the service of Y-H-W-H,
Eliyahu, light unto the nations
"Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE!" Deut 6:4
"All the peoples walk each in the name of his god, but as for us; we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God forever and ever!" Micah 4:5
.
.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 132 by ramoss, posted 08-05-2013 9:51 AM ramoss has not replied

  
kofh2u
Member (Idle past 3820 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 134 of 716 (704243)
08-06-2013 8:22 PM
Reply to: Message 131 by Eliyahu
08-05-2013 3:36 AM


Re: The Suffering Servant messianic passages speak about ISRAEL
JC didn't fulfill his own prophecies to come back within one generation with pomp and power, to judge the world, so he was a false prophet.
Of course JC came back as he said and reigned over the church for 1000 years.
No one noticed because they were living inside Universal Christianity at the time and had no clue.
Only now, in Historical retrospect, is it clear that exactly 1000 years saw just the one Christianity over all the known Roman World which also housed even the Jews inside its gates:
Rev. 20:4 And I saw thrones (of Universal Christian authority) and they, (the 144,000 monks of Catholic monasticism: [Rev14:4]), sat upon them, (i.e.; Christianity, as mandated by Emperor Theo I, was the ONLY legal religion in the Empire, after 380AD), and (theocratic) judgment was given unto them (in the days of Catholic Monasticism): and I saw the souls, (the spirit-like psyches or thinking) of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the (one) word of God, (Truth), and which had not worshipped (by participation in the paganistic practices and sexual excesses fueling) the beast (that was Roman Culture, including the economic system which had been based upon selfish self-interest), neither his image (on his coinage), neither had received his mark (of ledgered accounts recorded) upon their foreheads, or in (wages in) their hands (those monks living in moneyless monastic environments);
and they, (the saints/apostles), lived (as angels in the minds of the Christians who have followed since the appearance of the Gospels in 54AD, i.e., those beheaded saints, in the memories of the congregations who worshipped in churches built upon the bones of their remains)...
.... and (they) reigned (in Monasticism) with Christ a thousand years, (from 54 AD upon the appearance of the Holy Comforter, until 1054 AD with the first Schism of Greek Orthodoxy).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 131 by Eliyahu, posted 08-05-2013 3:36 AM Eliyahu has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 136 by Eliyahu, posted 10-19-2013 3:28 PM kofh2u has not replied

  
kofh2u
Member (Idle past 3820 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 135 of 716 (704244)
08-06-2013 8:26 PM
Reply to: Message 132 by ramoss
08-05-2013 9:51 AM


Re: The Suffering Servant messianic passages speak about ISRAEL
Actually, that is totally and utterly incorrect. The term 'Son of God' was a well known idiom. It meant someone who was righteous.
In the New Testament it is clearly defined as an immortal, (Elijah), who is sired by God:
Mat 3:16
And Jesus, (the son of man), when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, (in this ritual of Plerosis), and he saw the Spirit of God, (the immortal Elijah), descending like a dove, and lighting upon him, (in a filling up by the indwelling spirit of Elijah):
Mat 3:17 (Then and only then does the son-of-God appear),
And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This, (now), [B][U]is my beloved Son,[/B] (the immortal Elijah), in whom I am well pleased.
Edited by kofh2u, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 132 by ramoss, posted 08-05-2013 9:51 AM ramoss has not replied

  
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