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Author Topic:   Where is the line between a disorder and else?
Rahvin
Member (Idle past 1135 days)
Posts: 3964
Joined: 07-01-2005


(1)
Message 61 of 77 (704943)
08-20-2013 6:16 PM
Reply to: Message 56 by jar
08-20-2013 3:09 PM


Re: Harm to others
I almost totally agree with that position and think it is nearly perfect. The only change I'd suggest is that someone who rides a motorcycle without a helmet should not be eligible for public medical care in the case of an accident where not wearing a helmet caused damage.

It takes a cold, cold person to willfully let a human being die because of a missing helmet or seatbelt. Your sense of fairness and justice might make you speak those words on an internet forum, but basic human compassion would sway you in the actual moment, seeing a man immediately after an accident, broken, bleeding, dying in pain when you have the ability to summon help.

Or, at least, I would hope so.

Lots of people say "he got what he deserved" regarding a great many instances of what could be seen as poetic justice, or at the least, nature's punishment of the stupid through the obvious consequences of their ill-advised decisions.

But most people will still feel empathy for an injured person when in their presence, almost regardless of the reason (obvious exceptions are often those injured during the commission of a violent crime).

I don't think I could ever intentionally let a person die because he didn;t wear a helmet or a seatbelt. I might berate him later, I might support charging him more for the care he receives after the fact, but I'd lie about a helmet if necessary to ensure he got to the hospital and received the care in the first place.

Stupidity does not forfeit one's life.


“The human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion (either as being the received opinion or as being agreeable to itself) draws all things else to support and agree with it.” - Francis Bacon

"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers

“A world that can be explained even with bad reasons is a familiar world. But, on the other hand, in a universe suddenly divested of illusions and lights, man feels an alien, a stranger. His exile is without remedy since he is deprived of the memory of a lost home or the hope of a promised land. This divorce between man and his life, the actor and his setting, is properly the feeling of absurdity.” – Albert Camus

"...the pious hope that by combining numerous little turds of variously tainted data, one can obtain a valuable result; but in fact, the outcome is merely a larger than average pile of shit." - Barash, David 1995...

"Many that live deserve death. And some die that deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then be not too eager to deal out death in the name of justice, fearing for your own safety. Even the wise cannot see all ends." - Gandalf, J. R. R. Tolkien: The Lord Of the Rings

Nihil supernum


This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by jar, posted 08-20-2013 3:09 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 62 by jar, posted 08-20-2013 6:26 PM Rahvin has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30934
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 62 of 77 (704945)
08-20-2013 6:26 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by Rahvin
08-20-2013 6:16 PM


Re: Harm to others
Again you speak from *********.

I have been there and done that, seen horrific things.

Nor did I say they should not get medical help, only that the public should not have to pay for their *********.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by Rahvin, posted 08-20-2013 6:16 PM Rahvin has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 63 by Rahvin, posted 08-20-2013 6:41 PM jar has responded

  
Rahvin
Member (Idle past 1135 days)
Posts: 3964
Joined: 07-01-2005


(1)
Message 63 of 77 (704947)
08-20-2013 6:41 PM
Reply to: Message 62 by jar
08-20-2013 6:26 PM


Re: Harm to others
Again you speak from *********.

Ad hominem. Has it never occurred to you why some words have been censored for you and you alone?

I have been there and done that, seen horrific things.

Your condescension is irrelevant. Your experiences carry no greater weight than those of anyone else. Vague references to "horrific things" does not in any way further this topic. It neither weakens my own argument, nor strengthens your own.

Nor did I say they should not get medical help, only that the public should not have to pay for their *********.

You said:

The only change I'd suggest is that someone who rides a motorcycle without a helmet should not be eligible for public medical care in the case of an accident where not wearing a helmet caused damage.

Given your actual words, perhaps it would have been more effective for you to specify that access to public medical care is not what should be restricted, but rather that the injured party should simply receive the bill.

You might find that you need to make fewer accusations of strawman arguments if you make your arguments more clearly in the first place.


“The human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion (either as being the received opinion or as being agreeable to itself) draws all things else to support and agree with it.” - Francis Bacon

"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers

“A world that can be explained even with bad reasons is a familiar world. But, on the other hand, in a universe suddenly divested of illusions and lights, man feels an alien, a stranger. His exile is without remedy since he is deprived of the memory of a lost home or the hope of a promised land. This divorce between man and his life, the actor and his setting, is properly the feeling of absurdity.” – Albert Camus

"...the pious hope that by combining numerous little turds of variously tainted data, one can obtain a valuable result; but in fact, the outcome is merely a larger than average pile of shit." - Barash, David 1995...

"Many that live deserve death. And some die that deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then be not too eager to deal out death in the name of justice, fearing for your own safety. Even the wise cannot see all ends." - Gandalf, J. R. R. Tolkien: The Lord Of the Rings

Nihil supernum


This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by jar, posted 08-20-2013 6:26 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 64 by jar, posted 08-20-2013 6:51 PM Rahvin has not yet responded
 Message 66 by ringo, posted 08-21-2013 1:21 PM Rahvin has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30934
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 64 of 77 (704948)
08-20-2013 6:51 PM
Reply to: Message 63 by Rahvin
08-20-2013 6:41 PM


Re: Harm to others
Your assertions of what I have experienced or not or what I think or don't think are of no real interest or importance to me and so I simply laugh.

If you find what I post condescending maybe you should deal with it.

But when you speak from ********* then that is certainly not my problem.

And I have been making more posts then just your quote mine on this subject and have said repeatedly that the public should not have to have to pay for the person wearing a motorcycle and that a person in a car not wearing seat belts should be charged.

Yawn.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by Rahvin, posted 08-20-2013 6:41 PM Rahvin has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 68 by onifre, posted 08-21-2013 4:13 PM jar has responded

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 7592
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 65 of 77 (704953)
08-20-2013 8:09 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by yenmor
08-19-2013 11:53 AM


And there are plenty of people who say there is something seriously wrong with my head for not wanting to be with a woman.

There are many people who are wrong about many things.

At the end of the day, you are the one living your life. There is nothing wrong with listening to the advice of your family and friends, but remember that at the end of the day you are the one who has to live with your choices. What family and friends are supposed to do is accept you for who you are and support you in your journey through life. If your family and friends can not do this, then you need to find new family and friends to get advice from.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by yenmor, posted 08-19-2013 11:53 AM yenmor has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 15567
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 66 of 77 (704976)
08-21-2013 1:21 PM
Reply to: Message 63 by Rahvin
08-20-2013 6:41 PM


Re: Harm to others
Rahvin writes:

Given your actual words, perhaps it would have been more effective for you to specify that access to public medical care is not what should be restricted, but rather that the injured party should simply receive the bill.


I think it's pretty clear that "public medical care" refers to billing, not access. (And I don't agree with jar's position, by the way. I believe in unconditional universal publicly-funded healthcare.)
This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by Rahvin, posted 08-20-2013 6:41 PM Rahvin has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 67 by Perdition, posted 08-21-2013 1:51 PM ringo has responded

  
Perdition
Member (Idle past 1186 days)
Posts: 1593
From: Wisconsin
Joined: 05-15-2003


Message 67 of 77 (704980)
08-21-2013 1:51 PM
Reply to: Message 66 by ringo
08-21-2013 1:21 PM


Re: Harm to others
I believe in unconditional universal publicly-funded healthcare.

Unconditional? Really? That seems a bit extreme. Are you really expecting everyone else to pay for Joan Rivers' next face lift?

I'm for universal, publicly-funded healthcare for all necessary procedures (and I would even use the most loose definition of necessary), but elective ones should be on the person who wants to have an unnecessary procedure.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by ringo, posted 08-21-2013 1:21 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 70 by ringo, posted 08-21-2013 4:50 PM Perdition has responded

    
onifre
Member (Idle past 899 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 68 of 77 (704985)
08-21-2013 4:13 PM
Reply to: Message 64 by jar
08-20-2013 6:51 PM


Stop Censorship!!!
But when you speak from *********

This censorship of the word ignorance is stupid, when all we have to do is use "peek" to see the actual word.

Percy, seriously, you're better than that. This feels like Japanese porn. Stop blurring out the good stuff!

- Oni

Edited by onifre, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by jar, posted 08-20-2013 6:51 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 69 by jar, posted 08-21-2013 4:33 PM onifre has not yet responded

    
jar
Member
Posts: 30934
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.3


(1)
Message 69 of 77 (704988)
08-21-2013 4:33 PM
Reply to: Message 68 by onifre
08-21-2013 4:13 PM


Keep Censorship!!!
onifre writes:

This censorship of the word ********* is ******, when all we have to do is use "peek" to see the actual word.

I kinda enjoy it.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by onifre, posted 08-21-2013 4:13 PM onifre has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 15567
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


(1)
Message 70 of 77 (704990)
08-21-2013 4:50 PM
Reply to: Message 67 by Perdition
08-21-2013 1:51 PM


Re: Harm to others
Perdition writes:

Are you really expecting everyone else to pay for Joan Rivers' next face lift?


Well, I wasn't really thinking of that as "health" care.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by Perdition, posted 08-21-2013 1:51 PM Perdition has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 71 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-21-2013 5:00 PM ringo has responded
 Message 73 by Perdition, posted 08-21-2013 5:14 PM ringo has responded

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 71 of 77 (704992)
08-21-2013 5:00 PM
Reply to: Message 70 by ringo
08-21-2013 4:50 PM


Re: Harm to others
Perdition writes:

Are you really expecting everyone else to pay for Joan Rivers' next face lift?


Well, I wasn't really thinking of that as "health" care.

What if she has an Integrity Identity Disorder and just can't bear to live with a wrinkly face?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by ringo, posted 08-21-2013 4:50 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 72 by ringo, posted 08-21-2013 5:04 PM New Cat's Eye has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 15567
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 72 of 77 (704994)
08-21-2013 5:04 PM
Reply to: Message 71 by New Cat's Eye
08-21-2013 5:00 PM


Re: Harm to others
Catholic Scientist writes:

What if she has an Integrity Identity Disorder and just can't bear to live with a wrinkly face?


Mental health counts as health.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-21-2013 5:00 PM New Cat's Eye has not yet responded

  
Perdition
Member (Idle past 1186 days)
Posts: 1593
From: Wisconsin
Joined: 05-15-2003


(1)
Message 73 of 77 (704996)
08-21-2013 5:14 PM
Reply to: Message 70 by ringo
08-21-2013 4:50 PM


Re: Harm to others
Well, I wasn't really thinking of that as "health" care.

Neither do I, but that's why there are conditions on what a person can have done. As you said, if someone "needs" it due to a mental disorder, it could be considered "health care," but if someone just wants to have it done so they can face their next high school reunion, it shouldn't. But it's the exact same procedure.

That's why I mention necessity. Determining necessity would require a discussion with the patient, any relevant doctor, and the agency that actually pays out the money.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by ringo, posted 08-21-2013 4:50 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 74 by ringo, posted 08-22-2013 11:45 AM Perdition has responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 15567
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


(1)
Message 74 of 77 (705028)
08-22-2013 11:45 AM
Reply to: Message 73 by Perdition
08-21-2013 5:14 PM


Re: Harm to others
Perdition writes:

Determining necessity would require a discussion with the patient, any relevant doctor, and the agency that actually pays out the money.


In the case of a motorcycle accident, that would be fairly easy. Was the procedure necessary to save the patient's life, to minimize brain damage, etc.? Whether or not he was wearing a helmet is not a factor in that determination.

To recap: How the patient got into a state of "disorder" is irrelevant (to me). He should have unconditional cost-free access to any procedure necessary to get him out of it.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by Perdition, posted 08-21-2013 5:14 PM Perdition has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 75 by Perdition, posted 08-22-2013 12:42 PM ringo has responded

  
Perdition
Member (Idle past 1186 days)
Posts: 1593
From: Wisconsin
Joined: 05-15-2003


Message 75 of 77 (705041)
08-22-2013 12:42 PM
Reply to: Message 74 by ringo
08-22-2013 11:45 AM


Re: Harm to others
To recap: How the patient got into a state of "disorder" is irrelevant (to me). He should have unconditional cost-free access to any procedure necessary to get him out of it.

Well, nothing is "cost-free" it would just come out of everyone's taxes, creating a huge pool of "medical money" set aside for each and every person in the country to dip from when necessary. But yeah, I agree with that.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by ringo, posted 08-22-2013 11:45 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 76 by ringo, posted 08-22-2013 1:14 PM Perdition has responded

    
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