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Author Topic:   Where is the line between a disorder and else?
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 21 of 77 (704858)
08-19-2013 11:26 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by yenmor
08-16-2013 11:42 PM


The real dilemma I've been having is where do I draw the line between tolerating something and not tolerate it? Because I'm finding that the same arguments I have against not interfering with one's desire to amputate healthy limbs can be used against my own relationship with my partner.
I don't have a problem with being an inconsistent jerk and saying that if you want to cut your arm off then there is something seriously wrong with your head. But if you want to be consistent and tolerant, then you're going to have to support medical amputation for people with BIID when they can't be treated otherwise.
At what point should we stop calling it natural and begin calling it a disorder?
Unless you're using medical definitions, a disorder is just another way of saying disease, and disease is just a lack of ease. Pretty much anything abnormal that makes your life more difficult can count as one.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by yenmor, posted 08-16-2013 11:42 PM yenmor has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by yenmor, posted 08-19-2013 11:53 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 23 of 77 (704862)
08-19-2013 11:59 AM
Reply to: Message 22 by yenmor
08-19-2013 11:53 AM


And there are plenty of people who say there is something seriously wrong with my head for not wanting to be with a woman.
So?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by yenmor, posted 08-19-2013 11:53 AM yenmor has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by yenmor, posted 08-19-2013 3:05 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 27 of 77 (704872)
08-19-2013 4:39 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by yenmor
08-19-2013 3:05 PM


Logically, I can't find a reason to tell someone who wants to amputate a healthy limb because they "feel like it" without that reason coming back to bite me in the ass. But my common sense is screaming at me telling me there's something seriously wrong with that picture.
Do you understand me?
I think so. It looks like you forgot to include what you'd be telling them, but I assume its that they shouldn't amputate the limb.
You're gonna have to look past your common sense. My common sense tells me that the last thing a man would want in his mouth is a dick, but I'm not going to tell you not to suck one.
But at the same time, my common sense is screaming at me telling me otherwise with regard to people who want to amputate healthy limbs for no reason other than they feel like it.
If you really think they have no other reason than feeling like it, then you haven't looked into it enough. Their brain is telling them that they should not have that limb. And amputation becomes an option after other treatment methods have failed.
Its not just someone going: "Man, I kinda want to chop off my leg", they actually think that they're not supposed to be having the limb.
Imagine an ear growing out of your forehead, or something like that. Or better yet, the pimple you mentioned earlier. Are you really going to let it sit in the spotlight because you only "feel like it" shouldn't be there? Or do you have a more deep-seeded desire to get rid of it?

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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 42 of 77 (704904)
08-19-2013 10:54 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by Rahvin
08-19-2013 9:07 PM


I'm participating in this discussion in large part as a way to externalize my own thoughts on the matter and expose myself to multiple points of view so that I can determine what my position should actually be.
Roger.
So tie this all back to the topic: If a man suffers from BIID and loathes his left arm and wishes it removed, is he crazy?
Are you trying to question whether or nor a man who wants to cut his arm off is sane?
But the line between disorder and an incredible personal choice (in the literal sense - a choice one cannot understand or comprehend) is not drawn by identifying what we would choose. Down that road lies classifying all minority positions as mental illness.
But regardless of the slipery slope, whether or not you're sane does have a definition.
The lines may get blurred in some cases, but we can get the jist of it... And I doubt the patient has a good feel for that.
In my opinion, that's where the definition of sanity comes into play.
Should amputation be considered a viable treatment, or should it not be an option at all?
Its only a viable treatment when all the other options have failed.
How do the concepts of "harm," life expectancy, self-harming choices, personal choice, self-determination, and quality of life align in such a case?
Maybe they don't, maybe the results are inconsistant.
But the line between disorder and an incredible personal choice (in the literal sense - a choice one cannot understand or comprehend) is not drawn by identifying what we would choose. Down that road lies classifying all minority positions as mental illness.
But, the line between disorder and an incredible personal choice does lie between what we think we should choose. How could it be any other way? We can't enter their mind and determine if they're sane. We have to relate.
And there lies the crux of whether or not its a "disorder". Its about rationality. We have to rely on out own intuition for that, we cannot rely on their's. They're the ones in question.
and yet we would not say that his decision to smoke was borne of mental illness.
That gets into drug addiction, and I think we could count that as a form of induced insanity.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by Rahvin, posted 08-19-2013 9:07 PM Rahvin has not replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 47 of 77 (704915)
08-20-2013 9:36 AM
Reply to: Message 43 by yenmor
08-19-2013 11:44 PM


I don't just fear. I've already been like black folks in this regard.
A number of years ago, I met this young man. At the time, he had just come back from a 6 year tour in Iraq and was just trying to find his place in the gay community. I went over and introduced myself to him and we began to see each other. Then we started dating. Then I asked him to move in with me and he agreed.
Well, he started telling me that the reason he joined the army was because he didn't know where his place was here back home. He thought he was gay. Well, it turned out that by having a relationship with me he was getting closer to what he was, but not quite. He started dressing in women's clothing and wearing makeup. So, here I was watching my partner transition into the opposite sex. Let just say I wasn't very tolerant.
See how that works? Despite the fact that I had been prejudiced against by society at large for all my life, I was just as intolerant of my partner's "condition" (for lack of a better word).
I don't think so. Ask yourself this: Would you have reacted the same way if you knew they were trans from the beginning?
It sounds to me like it was the unexpected change, and not the condition, that you couldn't tolerate. And that's understandable.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by yenmor, posted 08-19-2013 11:44 PM yenmor has not replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 71 of 77 (704992)
08-21-2013 5:00 PM
Reply to: Message 70 by ringo
08-21-2013 4:50 PM


Re: Harm to others
Perdition writes:
Are you really expecting everyone else to pay for Joan Rivers' next face lift?
Well, I wasn't really thinking of that as "health" care.
What if she has an Integrity Identity Disorder and just can't bear to live with a wrinkly face?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by ringo, posted 08-21-2013 4:50 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
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