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Author Topic:   Which animals would populate the earth if the ark was real?
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 121 of 991 (705054)
08-22-2013 1:57 PM
Reply to: Message 119 by mindspawn
08-22-2013 8:36 AM


mindspawn writes:
... but some other creature became extinct right there and then....
That's what bothers me about the idea of dinosaurs on the ark. Why go to all the trouble of saving them if they're just going to become extinct right away anyway. It seems that the ark was as big a failure at animal preservation as it was at sin eradication.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 119 by mindspawn, posted 08-22-2013 8:36 AM mindspawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 123 by Dr Adequate, posted 08-22-2013 7:47 PM ringo has seen this message but not replied
 Message 128 by mindspawn, posted 08-23-2013 2:48 AM ringo has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


(2)
Message 122 of 991 (705059)
08-22-2013 2:49 PM
Reply to: Message 119 by mindspawn
08-22-2013 8:36 AM


I believe there are so many possible scenarios that it is impossible to say outright which would have been most logical.
I think that if someone thinks that animals are too complicated to have evolved, and thus godly magic was necessary, then all that stuff with the flood and animals on the ark is too complicated too and also needed to have godly magic. So, there's no reason to look for "logical" explanations.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 119 by mindspawn, posted 08-22-2013 8:36 AM mindspawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 129 by mindspawn, posted 08-23-2013 3:37 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 123 of 991 (705087)
08-22-2013 7:47 PM
Reply to: Message 121 by ringo
08-22-2013 1:57 PM


That's what bothers me about the idea of dinosaurs on the ark. Why go to all the trouble of saving them if they're just going to become extinct right away anyway. It seems that the ark was as big a failure at animal preservation as it was at sin eradication.
Oh, it worked great at sin eradication. That's why nowadays no-one commits presnupation or hentery.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 121 by ringo, posted 08-22-2013 1:57 PM ringo has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 124 by NoNukes, posted 08-22-2013 7:55 PM Dr Adequate has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 124 of 991 (705088)
08-22-2013 7:55 PM
Reply to: Message 123 by Dr Adequate
08-22-2013 7:47 PM


That's why nowadays no-one commits presnupation or hentery.
I don't know what those things are, but I have noticed that there isn't much bestiality with Triceratops going on these days. Success!!

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I believe that a scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy.
Richard P. Feynman
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 123 by Dr Adequate, posted 08-22-2013 7:47 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 125 by jar, posted 08-22-2013 8:11 PM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied
 Message 126 by Dr Adequate, posted 08-22-2013 11:30 PM NoNukes has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 125 of 991 (705091)
08-22-2013 8:11 PM
Reply to: Message 124 by NoNukes
08-22-2013 7:55 PM


acause God can learn
That's not related to the Flud; God learned his lesson that that don't work when He got Adam to try the Triceratops as a possible helpmeet.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 124 by NoNukes, posted 08-22-2013 7:55 PM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(2)
Message 126 of 991 (705097)
08-22-2013 11:30 PM
Reply to: Message 124 by NoNukes
08-22-2013 7:55 PM


I don't know what those things are ...
Exactly.
God 2, Sin 0.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 124 by NoNukes, posted 08-22-2013 7:55 PM NoNukes has not replied

  
mindspawn
Member (Idle past 2660 days)
Posts: 1015
Joined: 10-22-2012


Message 127 of 991 (705102)
08-23-2013 2:46 AM
Reply to: Message 120 by Dr Adequate
08-22-2013 10:15 AM


Well, there are people and Bronze Age artifacts buried under the pyroclastic flows, is that any help to you?
Yes, can you provide a link or explain more, I would be very interested in that. My understanding of archaeology is that it fits very well with the first construction in Turkey, spreading down to the first civilization in Sumeria, and then the second civilization in Babylon, followed by a worldwide spread of civilizations, just as described by the bible. It would be interesting to know more about any discoveries on Mt Ararat.
It's remarkable how little people know about the dietary needs of animals. (This is not particularly a crack at you, it seems to be generally true.) They seem to think that whatever is unfit for human consumption must be good enough for animals. Have you ever read any of Gerald Durrell's excellent books? Tradesmen kept turning up at his zoo with what they considered bountiful offers of spoiled meat and mildewed fruit, and got quite indignant when he pointed out that this would kill all his animals, they'd all die of dysentery. Very very few carnivorous species would be able to survive a diet of meat that had had over a year to go bad. So you might want to rethink that.
I didn't have the old rotting bodies in mind, my thinking is that there were only a few carnivores on the ark, who knows , maybe a couple of hundred. And any rapidly receding coastline would leave pools of fish behind, or the occasional stranded fish on the coastlines. Its possible that some of those carnivores could have survived that way.
Crocodiles may be amphibious, but they are not amphibians.
My bad, thanks for pointing that out.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 120 by Dr Adequate, posted 08-22-2013 10:15 AM Dr Adequate has not replied

  
mindspawn
Member (Idle past 2660 days)
Posts: 1015
Joined: 10-22-2012


Message 128 of 991 (705103)
08-23-2013 2:48 AM
Reply to: Message 121 by ringo
08-22-2013 1:57 PM


That's what bothers me about the idea of dinosaurs on the ark. Why go to all the trouble of saving them if they're just going to become extinct right away anyway. It seems that the ark was as big a failure at animal preservation as it was at sin eradication.
Some animals survived. I believe that is a success compared to all becoming extinct. I believe the problem was not the ark itself, but the transformation of the world from a vast wetland into a vast desert.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 121 by ringo, posted 08-22-2013 1:57 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 133 by ringo, posted 08-23-2013 11:47 AM mindspawn has replied

  
mindspawn
Member (Idle past 2660 days)
Posts: 1015
Joined: 10-22-2012


Message 129 of 991 (705104)
08-23-2013 3:37 AM
Reply to: Message 122 by New Cat's Eye
08-22-2013 2:49 PM


I think that if someone thinks that animals are too complicated to have evolved, and thus godly magic was necessary, then all that stuff with the flood and animals on the ark is too complicated too and also needed to have godly magic. So, there's no reason to look for "logical" explanations.
Are you asking me to prove how Noah released the animals? I wasn't there. But there are many ways he could have done it, that would have resulted in numerous survivals of species.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 122 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-22-2013 2:49 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 130 by NoNukes, posted 08-23-2013 6:13 AM mindspawn has replied
 Message 132 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-23-2013 9:38 AM mindspawn has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(2)
Message 130 of 991 (705108)
08-23-2013 6:13 AM
Reply to: Message 129 by mindspawn
08-23-2013 3:37 AM


Are you asking me to prove how Noah released the animals?
I don't believe you are being asked any such thing. CS is saying that the exercise has no point because magic can be invoked at any time.
Besides that, I think you've already made quite an impression with your 'knowledge' of animals.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I believe that a scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy.
Richard P. Feynman
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 129 by mindspawn, posted 08-23-2013 3:37 AM mindspawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 131 by mindspawn, posted 08-23-2013 7:31 AM NoNukes has replied

  
mindspawn
Member (Idle past 2660 days)
Posts: 1015
Joined: 10-22-2012


Message 131 of 991 (705112)
08-23-2013 7:31 AM
Reply to: Message 130 by NoNukes
08-23-2013 6:13 AM


I don't believe you are being asked any such thing. CS is saying that the exercise has no point because magic can be invoked at any time.
Besides that, I think you've already made quite an impression with your 'knowledge' of animals.
You guys are so serious
I don't claim to know everything about biology, I just enjoy a good discussion and don't invoke magic. So that point is pretty irrelevant. What is illogical is to assume a boat full of animals cannot be discharged in such a manner that some survive. Of course it can. If you were given that job and a year to think about it, I'm sure you could come up with a few good ideas how to release those animals for optimal survival.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 130 by NoNukes, posted 08-23-2013 6:13 AM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 134 by Dr Adequate, posted 08-23-2013 12:42 PM mindspawn has not replied
 Message 135 by NoNukes, posted 08-23-2013 3:14 PM mindspawn has not replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 132 of 991 (705115)
08-23-2013 9:38 AM
Reply to: Message 129 by mindspawn
08-23-2013 3:37 AM


Are you asking me to prove how Noah released the animals?
No, I'm saying the exact opposite: There's no reason to speculate how Noah could have done it when God was involved and he could have just employed his superpowers.
How familiar are you with the story? Do you know how Noah got the animals onto the ark?
quote:
Gen 6:20 (NIV)
Two of every kind of bird, of every kind of animal and of every kind of creature that moves along the ground will come to you to be kept alive.
The animals came to Noah all by themselves, there's no reason to think that God was not involved in "pushing" them there.
And when we get to "releasing" the animals:
quote:
Gen 8:20 (NIV)
All the animals and all the creatures that move along the ground and all the birdseverything that moves on landcame out of the ark, one kind after another.
Again, the animals just walked off the ark on their own one after another. Noah didn't have to "do" anything. And there's no reason to think that God was not involved in controlling them at this point either.
I just enjoy a good discussion and don't invoke magic.
Why not invoke magic? Especially when the stories imply it?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 129 by mindspawn, posted 08-23-2013 3:37 AM mindspawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 136 by kofh2u, posted 08-24-2013 7:39 PM New Cat's Eye has replied
 Message 139 by mindspawn, posted 08-25-2013 5:07 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 133 of 991 (705122)
08-23-2013 11:47 AM
Reply to: Message 128 by mindspawn
08-23-2013 2:48 AM


mindspawn writes:
Some animals survived. I believe that is a success compared to all becoming extinct.
You're setting the bar mighty low. I suppose if one human couple survived that would be a success too?
mindspawn writes:
I believe the problem was not the ark itself, but the transformation of the world from a vast wetland into a vast desert.
I agree that God's solution to the sin problem was more of a problem than a solution.
It's a nice story for kids but it doesn't bear much (any) scrutiny.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 128 by mindspawn, posted 08-23-2013 2:48 AM mindspawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 137 by mindspawn, posted 08-25-2013 4:35 AM ringo has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 134 of 991 (705136)
08-23-2013 12:42 PM
Reply to: Message 131 by mindspawn
08-23-2013 7:31 AM


You guys are so serious
Is that intended as a criticism?
If we're not going to take it seriously, then we have a humor thread. Otherwise, isn't the whole point of this site to discuss these questions seriously? If you yourself don't think it should be taken seriously, then let's hear your frivolous take on the Word Of God.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 131 by mindspawn, posted 08-23-2013 7:31 AM mindspawn has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 135 of 991 (705151)
08-23-2013 3:14 PM
Reply to: Message 131 by mindspawn
08-23-2013 7:31 AM


What is illogical is to assume a boat full of animals cannot be discharged in such a manner that some survive.
What is illogical is to assume a task is trivially easy when you know diddly squat about the details.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I believe that a scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy.
Richard P. Feynman
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 131 by mindspawn, posted 08-23-2013 7:31 AM mindspawn has not replied

  
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