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Author | Topic: Are Atheists Mentally Ill | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Stile Member Posts: 4295 From: Ontario, Canada Joined:
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Jon writes: Then what does the quote have to do with this thread? From the conclusion of the blog this thread is about (2nd last paragraph):
quote: "The fact that a believer is happier than a sceptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one. The happiness of credulity is a cheap and dangerous quality."-- George Bernard Shaw ...seems to flow pretty well to me. Like I said to you in Message 43, there are two points that this quote makes: 1. Simply being happy doesn't make someone a better person.2. A whole bunch of people who are happy and say that they are happier because of God... doesn't make God exist. The blog seems to be saying that religious believers are happier and equates this with them being "fully functioning humans."The quote from George pretty much rebuts this entire blog's conclusion and adds a bit of humour to boot.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9489 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.9 |
Catholic Scientist writes: Not at all. Plenty of people's lives have had a purpose that had nothing to do with just reproducing. Many people believe that their lives have purpose. So?
Our lives can, in fact, have a purpose. If you mean that people can find things to do with their lives that they find worthwhile and satisfying then I agree. That, however, is not purpose.Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
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Percy Member Posts: 22391 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 5.2 |
Tangle writes: If you mean that people can find things to do with their lives that they find worthwhile and satisfying then I agree. That, however, is not purpose. Right. It's the whole question of, "Why are we here?" I think we'd all really like to know the answer, but given that there's been no answer after thousands of years it seems very unlikely there'd be one on our watch. --Percy
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Tangle Member Posts: 9489 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.9
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Jon writes: I think it's clear that Tangle was being an equivocating wise ass.No need to dwell on his nonsense. It's clear you either don't understand the point or don't want to. Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
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nwr Member Posts: 6408 From: Geneva, Illinois Joined: Member Rating: 5.1 |
The fuzzy definition of "happiness" is part of what I'm trying to point out. In one sense a person seeking "happiness" is a hedonist trying to maximize pleasure and enjoyment in life. In another sense "happiness" can be the contentment of having fulfilled a value, even though the process was not enjoyable.
I distinguish "happiness" from "pleasure". I see hedonism as relevant to pleasure, rather than to happiness. When those who wrote the US Declaration of independence referred to "the pursuit of happiness", I have a hard time believing that they meant "the pursuit of pleasure."Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
Many people believe that their lives have purpose. So? And you simply believe that they don't, which is equally irrelevant. But what I said was that they do actually have a real purpose, not just that they believe that they do.
If you mean that people can find things to do with their lives that they find worthwhile and satisfying then I agree. That, however, is not purpose. A king has a son so as to have an heir; one purpose of that life is to be the next king. We can also make our own purposes in life.
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member
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Right. It's the whole question of, "Why are we here?" I think we'd all really like to know the answer, but given that there's been no answer after thousands of years it seems very unlikely there'd be one on our watch. That's not what I've been talking about, nor is it what I think Jon was asking about. I'm talking about the individual level, and how we can have all sorts of different purposes for our lives. Jon's calling them all the pursuit of happiness, in the there's-no-unselfish-acts sort of way. Edited by Catholic Scientist, : No reason given.
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Rahvin Member Posts: 4032 Joined: Member Rating: 9.2 |
I distinguish "happiness" from "pleasure". I see hedonism as relevant to pleasure, rather than to happiness. Again, the fuzziness of the definition is part of what I was trying to address.
When those who wrote the US Declaration of independence referred to "the pursuit of happiness", I have a hard time believing that they meant "the pursuit of pleasure." Agreed. Yet in the ongoing discussion with Jon, "happiness" has been used in such a way that it can mean any emotional state so long as values are being satisfied, whatever those values might be. In this way a person would be described as "happy" if they were in prison after protesting human rights abuses - I think that if you can say that a person pursues "happiness" by going to prison, the term "happiness" has lost all meaning. The relevant fact is that the "pursuit of happiness" is not, as Jon claimed, the ultimate purpose of life. Yes, we all seek to fulfill our values, but "happiness" is just one of those values, and its place in the hierarchy with other values is variable by individual. This means that a person might sacrifice their happiness in order to achieve a goal they consider more important - for example, some people spend more time at work instead of trying to be happy; other people might protest civil injustice and wind up in prison, tortured, or killed instead of just basing their decisions on what would make them the most "happy." I see a strong difference there. If all I cared about was being happy, I'd make significantly different life choices than those I actually do make. I'd rather be depressed and have a very accurate internal model of how the world is and works, than be happy but wrong. Yes, happiness is one of my values, and I do seek to have that value fulfilled, but I have other values that I consider more important. And while you can try to describe the fulfillment of values itself as "happiness," as Jon is doing in effect, I think that such a usage contradicts the more common usages of the term, as this would mean that a miserable person could be "happy," which most would consider to be a contradiction. Edited by Rahvin, : No reason given.The human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion (either as being the received opinion or as being agreeable to itself) draws all things else to support and agree with it. - Francis Bacon "There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers A world that can be explained even with bad reasons is a familiar world. But, on the other hand, in a universe suddenly divested of illusions and lights, man feels an alien, a stranger. His exile is without remedy since he is deprived of the memory of a lost home or the hope of a promised land. This divorce between man and his life, the actor and his setting, is properly the feeling of absurdity. — Albert Camus "...the pious hope that by combining numerous little turds of variously tainted data, one can obtain a valuable result; but in fact, the outcome is merely a larger than average pile of shit." - Barash, David 1995... "Many that live deserve death. And some die that deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then be not too eager to deal out death in the name of justice, fearing for your own safety. Even the wise cannot see all ends." - Gandalf, J. R. R. Tolkien: The Lord Of the Rings
Nihil supernum
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Tangle Member Posts: 9489 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.9 |
CS writes: But what I said was that they do actually have a real purpose, not just that they believe that they do. What's the difference between a purpose and a 'real' purpose?
A king has a son so as to have an heir; one purpose of that life is to be the next king. You're using the word 'purpose' in a trivial sense, which is fine, but it's not particularly interesting. I can clean my shoes with a purpose and having accomplished that purpose i can feel happier with my lot. But again, so? This is EVC, when we talk about puropse, it normally means Purpose. And Purpose is what religious people believe life is for. One of the things that believers puzzle over - or at least, I hear over and over again from them - is how an atheist can have Purpose without belief. The answer is simple - if you like clean shoes, you clean them as best you can. Once you've accepted that life has no Purpose you can find happinesses in cleaning shoes with a purpose.Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
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Theodoric Member Posts: 9076 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.7 |
You are right. I gave you too much credit.
Though both are an appeal to consequence. Your argument is much simpler and sillier.Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.
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Theodoric Member Posts: 9076 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.7 |
Doesn't even strike me as Pascal's Wager - it's just an argument from consequence that he went ahead and embraced. But that is all Pascal's Wager is; an appeal to consequence. But alas his is no where near as refined and complex as Pascal's Wager.Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.
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Jon Inactive Member |
Where does the article claim that happiness in the belief in a deity is evidence for that deity's existence?
Love your enemies!
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Jon Inactive Member |
If you mean that people can find things to do with their lives that they find worthwhile and satisfying then I agree. That, however, is not purpose. I think my case can be rested on this.Love your enemies!
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marc9000 Member Posts: 1509 From: Ky U.S. Joined: Member Rating: 1.4 |
I think your method of gathering information on religious background is highly flawed. I actually agree with that, in some cases. But here are my exact words;
quote: The bolded part is what applies to this thread. Since I used my skepticism to further explore the claim that was made, I found that it made a lot of sense in this case.
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marc9000 Member Posts: 1509 From: Ky U.S. Joined: Member Rating: 1.4 |
marc9000 writes: I'd like this thread to take a closer look at "the impact of religious practice on social stability", from the Heritage Foundation link found within this threads topic link,.... There's considerable variation in religiosity around the world, marc, and also considerable regional variation in your own country. I agree.
I was interested to read this on the health benefits of religiosity. Interested, because I happen to know that there's a general negative correlation between high religiosity and longevity around the world, and also within the United States. Your link "states by life expectancy" shows many different classifications for the different states, but shows only a 5 year variation between the two extremes. I think that's pretty insignificant, one of the most insignificant parts of the Heritage Foundation link. If it interests you that's fine - I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you on it. But I need to clarify what I meant by the "social stability" part of the sentence of mine that you quoted. I was more interested in the following statements from the Heritage Foundation link;
quote: quote: quote: The last one especially, earlier in this thread we saw the claim that atheists are less likely to get divorced. Both can't be right.
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