Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 63 (9162 total)
1 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 916,387 Year: 3,644/9,624 Month: 515/974 Week: 128/276 Day: 2/23 Hour: 1/1


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   the new new testament???
Dawn Bertot
Member (Idle past 103 days)
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 134 of 226 (704895)
08-19-2013 8:42 PM
Reply to: Message 127 by ramoss
08-13-2013 9:50 PM


Re: is it all interpretation/s?
I see. You can't show that the supernatural claims for the bible are more than a myth, so you go into full attack against the person who pointed that out to you.
Very transparent . And you still can not show that any of the supernatural claims are anything more than stores.
Well Ramoss, since I have now responded to your direct assertion concerning miracles are you not willing to follow through with your original complaint.
Still awaiting your response with great anticipation
Dawn Bertot

This message is a reply to:
 Message 127 by ramoss, posted 08-13-2013 9:50 PM ramoss has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 136 by ramoss, posted 08-19-2013 9:25 PM Dawn Bertot has replied

  
Dawn Bertot
Member (Idle past 103 days)
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 137 of 226 (704900)
08-19-2013 10:17 PM
Reply to: Message 135 by Coyote
08-19-2013 9:09 PM


Re: whats your "evidence" for that?
Tracing something back is not necessarily a test of anything but accurate copying.
We can trace the writings of Shakespeare back with pinpoint accuracy, but that doesn't make it something other than fiction...
True but this immediate and directly involved discussion has to with what should be constituted from a historical context as the NT and how that came about, why that came about and why it is what it is today
The reason you can confidently belief that what is shakespear's, is his, is because it was faithful transcribed and sttributed
The distinguishing mark between a fictional account and an account believed to be true (non-fiction) is that the writer will indicate it as such
There is no reason to believe the biblical writers were indicating something was fictional or that they would give there life for fiction
Dawn Bertot
Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.
Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 135 by Coyote, posted 08-19-2013 9:09 PM Coyote has not replied

  
Dawn Bertot
Member (Idle past 103 days)
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 138 of 226 (704901)
08-19-2013 10:23 PM
Reply to: Message 136 by ramoss
08-19-2013 9:25 PM


Re: is it all interpretation/s?
WHy, you response is quite telling, .. because, you see, I said you can't show that those miracles actually happened. The fact you basically are saying 'Prove they didn't', is indeed proof that you can show they happened.
Your very response is evidence.
You know that is not what I argued or what i said. I said and to which you paid no attention, that no one could prove anything in history that they did not witness, whether it was 2000 years ago or a week ago
I also said that miracles or the fanciful should not be the deciding factor as to whether an event happened in history. I did say the facts surrounding it should be what validates it reliability
You know full well I am not saying, "prove they didnt", if I dont believe you couldnt do it or that you shouldnt be required to do so.
You misrepresented me and my argument
Dawn Bertot
Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.
Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 136 by ramoss, posted 08-19-2013 9:25 PM ramoss has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 139 by ramoss, posted 08-19-2013 10:30 PM Dawn Bertot has replied

  
Dawn Bertot
Member (Idle past 103 days)
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 140 of 226 (704903)
08-19-2013 10:42 PM
Reply to: Message 139 by ramoss
08-19-2013 10:30 PM


Re: is it all interpretation/s?
I personally am not talking about 'what happened in history'
Sure you are. Do you know of anything that doesnt happen in history. Again like you I am not required to prove every detail in history for it to be believable
I am talking about miracles that are alleged to 'prove' that Jesus was God. Without that claim, and without the associated theology that goes with it, there isn't any meat in Christianity that isn't found elsewhere, and phrased better.
Again like all history, I have to ask myself, is there enough evidence, presently to demonstrate that certainly people at a certain time in history witnessed miracles to prove Jesus was God. Answer for me yes
Is there enough evidence that Napolean wittnessed certain flying metal discs in the sky at a certain battle. Answer probably yes. Atleast he saw something to make him speak of it and record it.
Now, he probably took one to many shots to the head and saw something, even if he was hallucinating. But I know he existed, he fought battles and saw things
Dawn Bertot
Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.
Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.
Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 139 by ramoss, posted 08-19-2013 10:30 PM ramoss has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 141 by Theodoric, posted 08-19-2013 11:00 PM Dawn Bertot has not replied

  
Dawn Bertot
Member (Idle past 103 days)
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 145 of 226 (704940)
08-20-2013 6:01 PM
Reply to: Message 142 by ringo
08-20-2013 1:35 PM


Re: whats your "evidence" for that?
Yes, I know that's been your mantra ever since your first post at EvC.
It's nonsense.
Pure logic or reasoning is worthless without real-world facts to work on. You can have the sharpest saw in the toolbox but it's useless without a piece of wood to saw.
Since Ramoss has been unable to continue with his line of assertion concerning miracles and there application to reliabilty, I will now continue to hopefully educate you Ringo on evidence and how exacally to conduct a debate
Its obvious you have paid little or no attention to what I have actually said about how logic is established and what it actually is or is not.
I have maintained and demonstrated exacally what you said, that logic is no good without some physical aspect attached to it
I have maintained that contrived logic or man made rules for logic are not actually real things, but rules we have set up to help us communicate
You really should pay attention Ringo
In that context I will now hopefully help to educate you with the rules of actual debate. Heres one
You cant just keep repeating yourself without actually responding to my actual arguments.
First you need to demonstrate that the NT writers are not reliable as witnesses to constitute a line of evidence. Whats wrong with thier actual testimony?
Secondly I have demonstrated that time, distance, accuracy, location, transcription of the NT documents is a line of evidence seperate from and independent of the actual writers themself.
You need to show how this is NOT actual with that evidence itself, not simply say it needs something attached to it
Thirdly, I have made it clear by both observation and argument that while independent human sources help a situation, they are not necessary to establish reliability
Fourthly, you have not demonstrated why if people agree in a situation, even with variance (which Ive pointed out) why they should be discounted as reliable. You cant just say its not reliable because they happen to agree
This is exacally where logical percision verses perception of evidence comes into play. Assuming that we need your specific rules of evidence, while helpful are not logical
There is not a type of evidence, there is just evidence, whether it comes in one line or many. The fact that you will not even admit the reliabilty demonstrated by the accuracy of trannscription over a 2000 year period, says something about your ability to reason correctly
Our confidence in the "accuracy" of an account is a function of confirmation by separate souces. No single account can ever be considered "accurate" in and of itself. It might by a fluke be near the truth but if it is consistent with other independent accounts we can consider it reliable.
Yes, this is a good way to proceed. However, Ive given you two seperate sources, neither of which will you admit as evidential, not because there is no good reason to do so, but simply because you dont like what it implies
But to avoid its conclusion you cant just disagree with it, you have to show why in and of itself it is not actual evidence. See the difference? Saying it needs something attached to it doesnt make it non-evidential
It doesn't matter whether you believe the New Testament or not and it doesn't matter whether I believe the New Testament or not. Thin evidence is thin evidence.
And on top of all of your blunders and evasion, you misrepresent me as well. Where did I ever say, that belief in the NT accounts was or should be coounted as evidence?
What I actually said was, because of the corroborating evidence, there is no good reason for not believing them
What I actually said was that you are unwilling to agree with or show objectivity even when the evidence is obvious
When I asked you about the transcription accruacy, amazingly you attributed it to Jesus followers, forgetting the actual PHYSICAL evidence involved in such a feat and the things that could have happened over that time period
Objectivity is of great value when youare actually debating
Dawn Bertot
Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.
Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 142 by ringo, posted 08-20-2013 1:35 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 148 by ramoss, posted 08-20-2013 8:17 PM Dawn Bertot has not replied
 Message 149 by ringo, posted 08-21-2013 12:03 PM Dawn Bertot has replied
 Message 160 by kofh2u, posted 08-23-2013 8:47 PM Dawn Bertot has not replied

  
Dawn Bertot
Member (Idle past 103 days)
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 146 of 226 (704944)
08-20-2013 6:20 PM
Reply to: Message 143 by NoNukes
08-20-2013 4:15 PM


Re: is it all interpretation/s?
Bertot has managed to undercut his entire line of argument, which was not entirely meritless, by using this example.
Hardly, I was not ascribing to Alexander the great (sorry my mistake) and the ufo incident the same evidence I do to the NT reliability, I was simply using it as an illustration
I agree however that alittle more research inthat area would have been useful
Undercut? Not at all
Dawn Bertot

This message is a reply to:
 Message 143 by NoNukes, posted 08-20-2013 4:15 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 147 by Theodoric, posted 08-20-2013 6:29 PM Dawn Bertot has not replied
 Message 150 by NoNukes, posted 08-21-2013 12:28 PM Dawn Bertot has not replied

  
Dawn Bertot
Member (Idle past 103 days)
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 151 of 226 (704987)
08-21-2013 4:32 PM
Reply to: Message 149 by ringo
08-21-2013 12:03 PM


Re: whats your "evidence" for that?
You seem to be suggesting that one data point can be reliable in and of itself.
No I am suggesting that I have more than one data point to begin with. Ive given you those data points.
But for the sake of people watching I will give them to you again. We have the eyewitness testimony, with even variance in the stories, ie, evidence
Now remember here we are speaking concerning the reliabilty of the text and what should constitute the NT.
Secondly we have the faithful, accurate, reliable transmission of documents, from thier original sources
I dont need anyother data point to back that up, its called evidence of the highest order
You have categorically evaded the evidence concerning the reliability and transmission of the text itself
But before I forget let me address the issue concerning the Mutiny and lines of evidence.
My reason for bringing in the Mutiny to begin with was to demonstrate that you are not far removed from that event, so while there are some lines of evidence concerning it, those lines of evidence fade as time passes
Also those lines of evidence are also basically from the same source, those involved with and around the story itself. IOWs there is no outside corroborating evidence, only those directly involved. Just like the NT
Now imagine 2000 years from now, when some of that evidence is lost. The story becomes less belivable, because the documentation, graves, he said she said fades.
Now the NT is of higher order in reliability than even that story, even 200 years or so removed
If your intent is to conceed that the reliabiltiy of the NT is such that you cannot deny, by moving to the actual stories contained therein, then you should say so
Is this your intent? You seem to be switching gears and ignoring the topic and arguments
I appreciate your illustrations but they have nothing to do with the immediate discussion on what evidence there is for the NTs existence and why it is the way it is
Dawn Bertot
Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.
Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.
Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.
Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 149 by ringo, posted 08-21-2013 12:03 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 152 by ringo, posted 08-21-2013 5:02 PM Dawn Bertot has replied

  
Dawn Bertot
Member (Idle past 103 days)
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 153 of 226 (705014)
08-21-2013 11:21 PM
Reply to: Message 152 by ringo
08-21-2013 5:02 PM


Re: whats your "evidence" for that?
You have no eyewitness testimony. The identity of the witnesses (even their existence) can not be substantiated. You have purported eyewitnesses. You need evidence that they were eyewitnesses.
Ill try this again, since Ramoss wasnt able to respond to it maybe you will give it a shot. Since you were not an eyewitness to the events of the mutiny, you did not actually see the events, you did not know the people that alledgedly reported the events, you did not see them write any of the things down. You do not know "they" actually wrote it down
You did not know the Admiralty or the people that actually made counter contentions
It follows that you do not actually have eyewitnesses, if we follow your line of reasoning. Your assuming these events happened and the people that reported it are telling the truth.
Yet for some odd reason you believe the events without question
Since we don't have the original sources - e.g. the gospel in Matthew's own handwriting - your statement is false.
And fictional documents such as Treasure Island can also be faithfully transmitted. Faithful transmission says nothing about the veracity of the content.
Thats nonsense. Look at the long list of people that alledgedly wrote during the 1st 2nd and 3rd century, which according to the one poster here, did not mention Jesus, but could have as he alledges
When you were reading that list, did you for a moment doubt that the authors on that list actually worte what they were purported to have written? Of course you dont, you accept it without really questioning that they did
But for some odd reason when it comes to Matthew, Paul and Peter, everything gets thrown out the window
Evidence that doesn't have other evidece t back it up is evidence of the lowest order.
Thats non-sense. There is no amount of evidence right now or 2000 years from now that will prove that the events of the Mutiny actually happened.
The only real question to ask, is there any good reason for not believing them, given the evidence that surrounds it.
The only evidence that backs up the Mutiny story that makes you actually feel confident in it, is that you are not so far removed from it. Thats the actual truth
As I said previously evidence is just evidence
Dawn Bertot
Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.
Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 152 by ringo, posted 08-21-2013 5:02 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 154 by ringo, posted 08-22-2013 12:08 PM Dawn Bertot has replied

  
Dawn Bertot
Member (Idle past 103 days)
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 170 of 226 (705275)
08-25-2013 7:01 PM
Reply to: Message 154 by ringo
08-22-2013 12:08 PM


Re: whats your "evidence" for that?
Bligh was an eyewitness. The mutineers were eyewitnesses. The Admiralty has records showing that they all existed.
You have no such confirmation of your so-called "eyewitnesses". Where are the records to show that Jesus, Matthew, Mark, Luke and John even existed? Where are the Jewish records to correspond to Bligh's journal? Where are the Roman records to correspond to the Admiralty records?
All you have is the mutineers' account.
Lets try this again. I know in your own special way and way of thinking you think you have independent wittnesses. You dont actually, not according to your hard line of evidence gathering
You did not witness these events. You are assuming what you can gather are the facts
The Admirilty, loyalists and mutineers are a part of the story. What you need is what you require of me. Independent news reports of the event. Other people not connected with the story, that are reporting the story.
Now, Im not saying you cant produce something of this sort and even if you can it will be scant. Most if not all of the accounts and news reports are slowly fading from existence
Imagine two thounsand years from now trying to find a news account of that event. It would be nearly impossible
The Admiralty backed up Bligh's official authority but considerd him a weak leader in some ways.
Three different viewpoints give us a clearer perspective of the big picture. Where are the corresponding different viewpoints in the New Testament?
These are not independent sources, according to your definition of independent. Where are the outside sources, that did not know or were not involved with bligh and Christian
Maybe you can get some native testimony thrown in there
All you have is the mutineers' account
Wrong. Differing stories or agreeing stories do not make or break the testimony. You seem to believe that because you have disputation in the stories that that counts as evidence. Seriously?
Also, I keep noticing that you ignore my point concerning the contention of the thread. The thread posits the idea that we believers cannot demonstrate that the NT as we now have it is what it was from the beginning, to a great degree of accuracy
Ill keep bringing up that point in hopes that you will atleast address it in some rational form.. Thats unless you have conceeded that fact and are now wanting to move to the present discussion
The funny/sad part is that Dawn Bertot holds up the Bounty as a historical incident which "is not questioned" but he doesn't understand why it isn't questioned any more - because the questions have been answered.
Again you did not witness these events, thats my reason for bringing it up. You did not posit the type of indepentdent evidence, that you require of everyone else
Here is an illustration. The Gospels report on numerous occasions, the Christ and the disciples were drug in front of the jewish councils and that at one point Gamaliel said certain things about other alledged Messiahs that tried and failed
Were we able to find the actual existence of one of these names mentioned in the Bible and thier actions, you would not accept it as evidence, that this particular writer was telling the truth, atleast about what Gamaliel actually said
Any outside evidence brought to light is immediately dismissed by you fellas becasue you have no intention of being objective
Things not previously believed and only mentioned in the Bible, then latter discovered to be accurate are quickly dismissed by you fellas as inconsequential. But when the Bible is the only source saying these events and people took place and existed, you say its inaccurate
But when its corroborted, you say its inconsequential, it doesnt make a difference. Where is the objecitvity
The type of evidence you use, then ask for from us has been provided. But every single example is simply dismissed. Now, its not dismissed in actuality, only in your minds
As an example of your intellectual blatant dishonesty and laziness, I cite again your unwillingness to even acknowledge that we have nearly word for word what the original letters contained. You know that we do, you just dont like it
Dawn Bertot
Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.
Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.
Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.
Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.
Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.
Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 154 by ringo, posted 08-22-2013 12:08 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 175 by ringo, posted 08-26-2013 12:18 PM Dawn Bertot has replied

  
Dawn Bertot
Member (Idle past 103 days)
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 171 of 226 (705280)
08-25-2013 7:42 PM
Reply to: Message 155 by jar
08-22-2013 12:53 PM


Re: whats your "evidence" for that?
You forget all the other independent lines of evidence.
The pay records and manifest of the vessel show who was hired and onboard.
The people on the Topaz and their report to the Admiralty.
The report sent to the Admiralty by the flotilla under Sir Thomas Staines.
The wreck of the Bounty that is still there.
The DNA of the Pitcairn Island inhabitants itself.
Note that all of these and many more are separate, independent lines of evidence.
There is nothing comparable when looking at the stories found in the Bible.
Now notice Jar and pay very close attention, you probably wont, but Ill try anyway.
Two or three thousand years from now, some of if not of these lines of evidence will be lost destroyed or reduced to ambiguity.
BTW, these are not actually evidence as Ringo requires, if you did not actually witnesse the events
Most of them will be dismissed as lies, interpolations, changes or myth. What then will remain to make the story believable. From an evidenntial standpoint nearly nothing.
The NT already has in place more physical evidence than will remain for the Bounty, in two thousand years of its events. The faithful trail of accurate transcription being the best.
IOWs, I would immediately disbelieve its content, if it demonstrated itself to be inaccurate on the surface or in its testimony.
Historical accuracy another. Places and people not previously beileved to exist and mentioned only by the Bible, discounted as disaccurate by historians, then discovered to be true
The list just gets better and better. Ignoring it or pooh poohing it away as evidenceis not a response.
Just like the bounty, we have to ask ourselves, is there any reason to doubt its accuracy and reliability as time passes and things are lost
The wreck of the Bounty that is still there.
This would be comparable to the trail of accuracy concerning the scriptures
The DNA of the Pitcairn Island inhabitants itself.
Compared to who? Eyewitnesses that no longer exist?
One moment you want physical evidence, the next you reject it.
Dawn Bertot
Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.
Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.
Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.
Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.
Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.
Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 155 by jar, posted 08-22-2013 12:53 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 172 by NoNukes, posted 08-26-2013 12:26 AM Dawn Bertot has replied
 Message 174 by jar, posted 08-26-2013 8:49 AM Dawn Bertot has not replied

  
Dawn Bertot
Member (Idle past 103 days)
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 178 of 226 (705401)
08-26-2013 7:13 PM
Reply to: Message 175 by ringo
08-26-2013 12:18 PM


Re: whats your "evidence" for that?
Yup. Got 'em. Right here.
Yup. I was actually hoping you would find something of this nature because it will go along way in demonstrating my point exacally.
Imagine now we are hiftorians in this prefent day looking for fources to fupport and report on an event three hundred years removed. ofcourse we come upon this scant hard to find article and ofcourse we use it because it tends to be reliable
Now imagine Josephus barely removed from events and Eusibeus 300 years removed and all the people inbetween.
The sources available to Josephus must have been many, the sources to Eusibeus scant, but nonetheless reliable, just like you article concerning the bounty
The story of the bounty and its support, while scant, are now reliable. This is ofcourse exacally how we detemine the reliability of the NT. From sources that were not far removed from the events that depended on other reliable sources.
We consider the earlier sources as reliable the same way you consider the Oxford News paper reliable
I did notice you said "em". Does this mean you have more than this one hard to find article or were you just trying to make an overated point by "em" (them)
Your independent evidence for the Bounty is quickly fading and being lost Ringo, you had better find some more for those people two thousand years from now, to help them believe the story
Besides as I have indicated finding a Sahedrin account or some Roman record or file would only be rejected by you as evidence. You say it would count but knowing you fellas history it would not
Can you provide any piece of obvious evidence that has and does support the Bible in any way that you fellas have not picked apart, without results or justification
My definition of independent, as I have mentioned, is people who are trying to kill each other. That's a good indication that they're not in collusion.
My point exacally but when its done in and by the Bible writers you call it collusion or contradiction
No, that isn't what the thread posits at all. The thread posits that there are other non-canonical documents that can be demonstrated ato be just as authentic as your canonical documents.
Uh yeah that is the point I was making, because they are not canonical, they are not considered reliable as what was from the beginning
On the contrary, I accept everything as evidence. What we're discussing in this thread is the quality of evidence.
LOL. Name one thing you consider reliable as evidence that supports the Bible. thats the point of your and my discussion, to demonstrate you are not objective from or in any sense
Eyewitness accounts are by their nature poor quality evidence. Purported eyewitness accounts from people whose existence can not be established are even worse quality. Hearsay accounts that, "so-and-so says he saw such-and-such" are also poor quality.
My guess is that the people two thousand years from now will still believe the account of the bounty when all the evidence you suggest above is removed or unavailable directly. Why you say?
because they will follow the trail of evidence from other reliable sources. Man Im good
Other non-canonical documents have evidence of equal quality to the New Testament. Your own example, the Bounty, has better quality evidence.
Seriously? I cant ftop laughing to write
I have never disputed that we do. I think I have pointed out, though, that that isn't the least bit significant. We also have nearly word for word the original text of Treasure Island but that doesn't mean the text was ever true. Accurate transmission does not indicate truth.
By comparison you illustration of the treasure Island with the NT documents is silly at best idiocy at worst
Two thousand years from now if it is even remembered treasure Island of course will not have a trail of evidence to support it like the NT
thats the point of manuscript evidence supporting the NT, especially from different geographical locations
Secondly, stories like the Iliad and treasure Island do not have a trail of historical information following them, that can be cooroborated by reliable sources
But this is where your objectivity comes in doesnt it Ringo? You know instinctively that Treasure Island is fictional, not only because of your proximity to its contents, but because there is not a trail of reliable history behind it. But you know without even trying thatJesus and Mohammed were real people, right?
But thats assuming one chooses to be objective. Hmmmmm?
I'm open to the New Testament being accurate. Are you open to it beng inaccurate?
You see my point, we havent even got started and your assuming its unreliable, even without implying how in your intimation
I'm also open to other non-canonical documents being as accurate as the New Testament. Are you?
Now, how in the world can a man that preaches about and relies so heavily on evidence, claim(in his view) that the NT has no evidence supporting it make the absurd claim that documents, with even less evidence, are evidence at all
You cant even be consistent in your assertions
Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.
Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.
Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.
Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.
Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.
Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.
Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.
Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.
Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 175 by ringo, posted 08-26-2013 12:18 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 182 by ringo, posted 08-27-2013 12:15 PM Dawn Bertot has replied

  
Dawn Bertot
Member (Idle past 103 days)
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 179 of 226 (705410)
08-26-2013 8:17 PM
Reply to: Message 172 by NoNukes
08-26-2013 12:26 AM


Re: whats your "evidence" for that?
That is complete nonsense. It turns out that eye witness accounts and testimony are the least reliable evidence of all types.
And we are right back where we started. Of course eyewitness testimony can have no less value than anyother type of evidence, as Evidence. Nobody that we know of witnessed Oswald Shooting JFK, but there were several very reliable witnesses as to shot his brother. No doubt, correct?
Your statement above is to categorical
The most reliable evidence is indirect or circumstantial evidence.
This statement may or may not be true. At any rate, you just need get to Ringo to see that concerning the NT. Heck if you could just get him to be objective, that would be a start
Instead he has talked about methods of buttressing purported eye witness testimony, most of said methods not involving witnesses.
But thats the point isnt it? Any methods of evidence that support the validity and reliability of the NT, not involving witnesses, are sumarily dismissed by you fellas.
As the direct, eyewitness evidence and most of the physical evidence fades for the bounty, most people thousands of years from now will still believe it as an actual event in history, even without gobs of direct evidence
Ive only bolstered or used the NT writers as evidence of witness, because there is no good reason to reject them outright. They have not been the sole support for its reliability
Dawn Bertot
Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.
Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 172 by NoNukes, posted 08-26-2013 12:26 AM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 180 by NoNukes, posted 08-26-2013 11:08 PM Dawn Bertot has replied

  
Dawn Bertot
Member (Idle past 103 days)
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 181 of 226 (705429)
08-26-2013 11:36 PM
Reply to: Message 180 by NoNukes
08-26-2013 11:08 PM


Re: whats your "evidence" for that?
You are wrong. Eyewitness testimony is less reliable than evidence that does not require us to determine the honesty, and human accuracy of eyewitness testimony.
Ok, lets go with your premise and this is just the tip of the iceburg. Its gets even better from here
From that uneducated idiot as one poster here discribed him, F F Bruce, In his book, 'The New Testament Documents Are They Reliable', he states,
Here, in the pages of Josephus, we meet many figures who are well known to us from the New
Testament: the colourful family of the Herods; the Roman emperors Augustus, Tiberius, Claudius, and
Nero; Quirinius, the governor of Syria; Pilate, Felix, and Festus, the procurators of Judaea, the high
priestly families-Annas, Caiaphas, Ananias, and the rest; the Pharisees and Sadducees; and so on. against
the background which Josephus provides we can read the New Testament with greater understanding and
interest.
When Gamaliel, in Acts v. 37, speaks of Judas the Galilean who led a rising in the days of the taxing, we
turn to the pages of Josephus, and find the story of this rising both in his War (ii. 8) and in the Antiquities
(xviii. 1). Josephus also tells of an impostor named Theudas (Ant. xx. 5.1) who appeared shortly after
AD, 44, but the Theudas mentioned by Gamaliel flourished before Judas the Galilean an (AD 6), and in
any case Gamaliel's speech was made between 30 and 33. It is unnecessary to think that Luke perpetrated
an anachronism through misreading Josephus (the weight of evidence is against Luke's having read
Josephus); Josephus himself tells us that about the time of the death of Herod the Great (4 BC) there
were ever so many such troubles in Judaea, and the activity of Gamaliel's Theudas (which was not an
uncommon name) may belong to this period.
The famine in the days of Claudius (Acts xi. 28) is also referred to by Josephus; if Luke tells us how the
Christians in Antioch sent help to the Jerusalem church on this occasion, Josephus tells us how Helena,
the Jewish queenmother of Adiabene, which lay northeast of Mesopotamia, had corn bought in
Alexandria and figs in Cyprus to relieve the hunger of the Jerusalem populace on the same occasion.'
The sudden death of Herod Agrippa I, narrated by Luke in Acts xii. 19-23, is recorded also by Josephus
(Ant. xix. 8. 2) in a form agreeing with Luke's general Outline, though the two accounts are quite
independent of each other. This is the story as told by Josephus:
'When Agrippa had reigned three full years over all Judaea, he came to the city of Caesarea, which was
formerly called Strato's Tower. There he exhibited shows in honour of Caesar, inaugurating this as a
festival for the emperor's welfare. And there came together to it a multitude of the provincial officials and
of those who had been promoted to a distinguished position. On the second day of the shows he put on a
robe all made of diver, of altogether wonderful weaving, and arrived in the theatre at break of day. Then
the silver shone as the sun's first rays fell upon it and glittered wonderfully, its resplendence inspiring a
sort of fear and trembling in those who gazed upon it. Immediately his flatterers called out from various
http://www.worldinvisible.com/...bruce/ntdocrli/ntdocc09.htm (3 of 7) [21/07/2003 12:16:16 a.m.]
http://www.worldinvisible.com/...bruce/ntdocrli/ntdocc09.htm
quarters, in words which in truth were not for his good, addressing him as a god, and invoking him with
the cry, "Be propitious! if hitherto we have revered thee as a human being, yet henceforth we confess
thee to be superior to mortal nature."
'The king did not rebuke them, nor did he repudiate their impious flattery. But looking up soon
afterwards he saw the owl sitting on a rope above his head, and immediately recognized it as a messenger
of evil as it had formerly been a messenger of good,' and a pang of grief pierced his heart. There came
also a severe pain in his belly, beginning with a violent attack.... So he was carried quickly into the
palace, and the news sped abroad among all that he would certainly die before long.... And when he had
suffered continuously for five days from the pain in his belly, he departed this life in the fifty fourth year
of his age and the seventh of his reign.'
The parallels between the two accounts are obvious, as is also the absence of collusion between them.
Luke describes the king's sudden stroke by saying, in biblical language, that 'the angel of the Lord smote
him'; it is unnecessary to think that there is any significance in the fact that the Greek word for 'angel' in
Luke's account (angelos) is the same as the word for 'messenger' applied to the owl by Josephus, though
some early Christian Fathers seem to have thought so. The Tyrians may well have taken advantage of
this festival to be publicly reconciled to the king.
In general, we may sum up the comparison of the two accounts in the words of an unbiased historian,
Eduard Meyer: 'In outline, in data, and in the general conception, both accounts are in full agreement. By
its very interesting details, which are by no means to be explained as due to a "tendency" or a popular
tradition, Luke's account affords a guarantee that it is at least just as reliable as that of Josephus."
More important still, Josephus makes mention of John the Baptist and of James the brother of our Lord,
recording the death of each in a manner manifestly independent of the New Testament, so that there is no
ground for suspecting Christian interpolation in either passage; In Ant. xviii. 5. 2 we read how Herod
Antipas, the tetrarch of Galilee, was defeated in battle by Aretas, king of the Nabataean an Arabs, the
father of Herod's first wife, whom he deserted for Herodias. Josephus goes on:
'Now some of the Jews thought that Herod's army had been destroyed by God, and that it was a very just
penalty to avenge John, surnamed the Baptist. For Herod had killed him, though he was a good man, who
bade the Jews practice virtue, be just one to another and pious toward God, and come together in
baptism.' He taught that baptism was acceptable to God provided that they underwent it not to procure
remission of certain sins, but for the purification of the body, if the soul had already been purified by
righteousness. And when the others gathered round him (for they were greatly moved when they heard
his words), Herod feared that his persuasive power over men, being so great, might lead to a rising, as
they seemed ready to follow his counsel in everything. So he thought it much better to seize him and kill
him before he caused any tumult, than to have to repent of falling into such trouble later on, after a revolt
had taken place. Because of this suspicion of Herod, John was sent in chains to Machaerus, the fortress
which we mentioned above, and there put to death. The Jews believed that it was to avenge him that the
disaster fell upon the army, God wishing to bring evil upon Herod.'
If we are speaking concerning reliability, you really should read the book. Its not even a contest to oppose its reliabity in confidence of evidental accuracy. But in your disbelief try and find some objectivity
Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.
Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 180 by NoNukes, posted 08-26-2013 11:08 PM NoNukes has not replied

  
Dawn Bertot
Member (Idle past 103 days)
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 183 of 226 (705558)
08-28-2013 11:45 PM
Reply to: Message 182 by ringo
08-27-2013 12:15 PM


Re: whats your "evidence" for that?
No, I don't consider the Oxford News "reliable".
This is why we cannot honestly have a discussion, because you will not be objective. Of-course you consider it reliable
Josephus actually does come close to the same thing. What's missing in the evidence for the New Testament, as I've been saying, is the opposing viewpoint(s).
Im not sure what close to the samething means
It wasn't hard to find; it was the first hit on Google. I wasn't making a point at all. I was just answering your question.
What else do you have of an independent nature. Thats my point. The person that posted the article was estatic that they had found that one document
Dawn Bertot writes:
Besides as I have indicated finding a Sahedrin account or some Roman record or file would only be rejected by you as evidence.
Ringo
No it wouldn't.
Thats simply not true. You and others have tried to discredit every other piece of corroborating evidence to Eusibeus
No I don't. I said that without an independent source, we can't rule out collusion.
The general rule is ascribed as collusion in one context contradiction in another
The existence of Jerusalem.
The problem is that there isn't much in the Bible that is verifiable by evidence. There are some things that might be true but haven't (yet) been verified. There are also some things that are definitely false.
Jerusalem was not what I meant and you know it. There is much that has been verified and as of yet you have not provided why the NT writers are unreliable. Perhaps you will do that at some point.
I know why you believe it to be unreliable but you will probably never state it out right
On the contrary, the history behind Treasure Island is more reliable than that of the Bible, even if the individual characters are not evidenced any beter than those in the Bible. You'd be hard-presed to find anything historically inaccurate in Treasure Island, whereas the Bible is full of historical nonsense like worldwide floods.
Well its right on the tip of your tounge, but you just wont say miracles
Ive already demonstrated your intellectual dishonesty by pointing out that you presently know for a fact that one is fictional and say the book of Acts is pitted in historical fact. Even if it was just a feeling you know the difference between Shakespear and a probable real story
Ringo writes
Personally, I don't think Jesus was a real person.
From wiki
Despite divergent scholarly opinions on the construction of portraits of the historical Jesus, almost all modern scholars consider his baptism and crucifixion to be historical facts.[46][47] James Dunn states that these "two facts in the life of Jesus command almost universal assent" and "rank so high on the 'almost impossible to doubt or deny' scale of historical facts" that they are often the starting points for the study of the historical Jesus.[46]
The Pilate Stone from Caesarea Maritima, now at the Israel MuseumScholarly agreement on the crucifixion of Jesus by Pontius Pilate is widespread, and most scholars in the third quest for the historical Jesus consider the crucifixion indisputable.[108][109][110][111] Eddy and Boyd state that it is now "firmly established" that there is non-Christian confirmation of the crucifixion of Jesus.[112] Bart Ehrman states that the crucifixion of Jesus on the orders of Pontius Pilate is the most certain element about him.[110] John Dominic Crossan states that the crucifixion of Jesus is as certain as any historical fact can be.[108] John P. Meier views the crucifixion of Jesus as historical fact and states that based on the criterion of embarrassment Christians would not have invented the painful death of their leader.[111] Meier states that a number of other criteria, e.g. the criterion of multiple attestation (i.e. confirmation by more than one source), the criterion of coherence (i.e. that it fits with other historical elements) and the criterion of rejection (i.e. that it is not disputed by ancient sources) help establish the crucifixion of Jesus as a historical event.[113]
Again I demonstrate you have no objectivity when not only Biblical Scholars but Most scholars generally agree with even the basic facts. You simply play the blind monkeys to avoid responsibility
I haven't said that the New Testament has no evidence supporting it. I've said that the evidence is no better than the evidence supporting the non-canonical books. This thread is your opportunity to compare those two lines of evidence.
There are not 5000 manuscripts of the non-canonical books. You cannot reproduce the noncanonical books in the Apostolic fathers back to that time period with repdidity
This simple acid test should be simple even for someone like yourself. They used and copied what they knew to be the original material. These two simple points alone establish thier reliability without anything else
Your up
Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.
Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.
Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.
Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 182 by ringo, posted 08-27-2013 12:15 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 184 by Theodoric, posted 08-28-2013 11:51 PM Dawn Bertot has not replied
 Message 185 by ringo, posted 08-29-2013 12:35 PM Dawn Bertot has replied

  
Dawn Bertot
Member (Idle past 103 days)
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 187 of 226 (705973)
09-04-2013 4:45 PM
Reply to: Message 185 by ringo
08-29-2013 12:35 PM


Re: whats your "evidence" for that?
We've been through that. Accurate copying and large numbers of copies do not indcate reliability of the original. A bestselling novel is still fiction.
This is hardly the point I am making and you it. I am suggesting that from the very begginning of Christianity, we know and have a standard, rule and guide (Which is meant by Canon) that is reliable as being from its original source
I am further demonstrating that the other alledged which claim to be canonical, can make no such claim
I have now asked you several times to demonstrate the canonicity of those alledged books with that which we know to be reliable as a standard from the beginning
Why do you refuse to do this? Isnt that what the thread is about
See the first paragraph of this post. Once again, no single source can be treated as reliable and sources that take the same viewpoint can not be considered independent.
What part of that do you not understand?
Again, reliability in this instance has nothing to do with human testimony. It only has to do with the fact that we know we have that which is reliable as original
It has to do with the fact that the people of original christianity knew what was considered authentic verses spurious or fake.
Now if you can provide evidence that the other books were readily accepted as those of the canon, Im willing to listen to your argument
We don't need to discuss individual details of single sources. They are all inherently unreliable. Charles Manson's testimony is unreliable on its own. So is Gandhi's. Every house needs a foundation.
You seem to think that reliability and evidence only comes from human testimony and resources
Dawn Bertot

This message is a reply to:
 Message 185 by ringo, posted 08-29-2013 12:35 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 188 by jar, posted 09-04-2013 4:48 PM Dawn Bertot has not replied
 Message 191 by ringo, posted 09-05-2013 12:23 PM Dawn Bertot has replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024