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Author Topic:   Which animals would populate the earth if the ark was real?
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 181 of 991 (705535)
08-28-2013 1:44 PM


Hmmmm
I've always wondered where they kept the termites, and what they ate????

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

Replies to this message:
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Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 182 of 991 (705539)
08-28-2013 2:09 PM
Reply to: Message 181 by Coyote
08-28-2013 1:44 PM


Re: Hmmmm
.....and which one of the humans had HIV?

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

This message is a reply to:
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Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 183 of 991 (705541)
08-28-2013 2:25 PM
Reply to: Message 182 by Tangle
08-28-2013 2:09 PM


Re: Hmmmm
Wasn't that the Three Stooges guy, Shemp. They caught him screwing one of the monkeys.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

This message is a reply to:
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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(1)
Message 184 of 991 (705544)
08-28-2013 3:22 PM
Reply to: Message 181 by Coyote
08-28-2013 1:44 PM


Re: Hmmmm
Termites would do okay, they ate the Ark which is why no one has ever found it.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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 Message 181 by Coyote, posted 08-28-2013 1:44 PM Coyote has not replied

  
mindspawn
Member (Idle past 2660 days)
Posts: 1015
Joined: 10-22-2012


Message 185 of 991 (705571)
08-29-2013 3:00 AM
Reply to: Message 172 by jar
08-26-2013 2:43 PM


Re: But the Biblical Flood myths have been totally refuted.
Perhaps Message 3 might help saves us all some time. It covers what must be seen if any of the Biblical Flood myths were true. It's easy since it is really simple, relies on nothing but what the Bible stories actually say, doesn't matter when the flood happened, requires no dating methods that you might question and absolutely refutes any version of the Biblical Flood.
Message 3 (Mr Jack) states:
Basically only insects, a few small rodents, maybe an amphibian or two. Possibly a few species of bird make it out alive. A handful of fish and other aquatic animals survive the devastation of the oceans.
After the flood the world is covered in a thick layer of mud, unsuited for most plant life, and treacherous to any large animal. The herbivores die first, unable to feed and unable to escape the predators. The predators die soon after with nothing to feed on. That leaves the smaller animals that could root through the mud to live on, surviving on the corpses of the dead, and the animal and plant matter washed up from the flood.
TO: Jar, Mr Jack, Tangle, Catholic Scientist, Ringo, Coyote
I understand that you guys don't read the bible, the story can be found in Genesis 8. Its clear in the biblical account that the earth dried up for 5 months. The animals were only released when the land was dry. Vegetation had been gaining a foothold for some time by then.
For this discussion to get more scientific you would require proof that its impossible for sufficient vegetation to gain a foothold after a 7 month flood. I need some proof instead of speculation. Remember this is a small number of animals released into a large landscape.
You would also need sufficient proof of a significant number of predators, I do not see the predator/herbivore ratio as very high at all, especially since some animals had 14 representatives, and some only had 2. And with drying lakes of water where the oceans receded , fresh fish would be in abundance for a while as large lakes dried up, and would be easier prey initially for those carnivores who could handle that diet.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 172 by jar, posted 08-26-2013 2:43 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 186 by Tangle, posted 08-29-2013 3:32 AM mindspawn has replied
 Message 190 by jar, posted 08-29-2013 7:49 AM mindspawn has replied
 Message 191 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-29-2013 9:27 AM mindspawn has replied
 Message 193 by ringo, posted 08-29-2013 11:51 AM mindspawn has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 186 of 991 (705573)
08-29-2013 3:32 AM
Reply to: Message 185 by mindspawn
08-29-2013 3:00 AM


Re: But the Biblical Flood myths have been totally refuted.
mindspawn writes:
TO: Jar, Mr Jack, Tangle, Catholic Scientist, Ringo, Coyote
I understand that you guys don't read the bible, the story can be found in Genesis 8. Its clear in the biblical account that the earth dried up for 5 months. The animals were only released when the land was dry. Vegetation had been gaining a foothold for some time by then.
According to the book, Noah released his animals as soon as the land was dry enough for him to do it.
8 But God remembered Noah and all the wild animals and the livestock that were with him in the ark, and he sent a wind over the earth, and the waters receded.
2 Now the springs of the deep and the floodgates of the heavens had been closed, and the rain had stopped falling from the sky.
3 The water receded steadily from the earth. At the end of the hundred and fifty days the water had gone down,
4 and on the seventeenth day of the seventh month the ark came to rest on the mountains of Ararat.
5 The waters continued to recede until the tenth month, and on the first day of the tenth month the tops of the mountains became visible.
6 After forty days Noah opened a window he had made in the ark
7 and sent out a raven, and it kept flying back and forth until the water had dried up from the earth.
8 Then he sent out a dove to see if the water had receded from the surface of the ground.
9 But the dove could find nowhere to perch because there was water over all the surface of the earth; so it returned to Noah in the ark. He reached out his hand and took the dove and brought it back to himself in the ark.
10 He waited seven more days and again sent out the dove from the ark.
11 When the dove returned to him in the evening, there in its beak was a freshly plucked olive leaf! Then Noah knew that the water had receded from the earth.
12 He waited seven more days and sent the dove out again, but this time it did not return to him.
13 By the first day of the first month of Noah’s six hundred and first year, the water had dried up from the earth. Noah then removed the covering from the ark and saw that the surface of the ground was dry.
14 By the twenty-seventh day of the second month the earth was completely dry.
15 Then God said to Noah,
16 Come out of the ark, you and your wife and your sons and their wives.
17 Bring out every kind of living creature that is with youthe birds, the animals, and all the creatures that move along the groundso they can multiply on the earth and be fruitful and increase in number on it.
18 So Noah came out, together with his sons and his wife and his sons’ wives.
19 All the animals and all the creatures that move along the ground and all the birdseverything that moves on landcame out of the ark, one kind after another.
Noah's ark was sat on a mountain, so even though he was dry, he had to wait a while for the bath water to drain out. (Where to?)
I love the idea that anything could grow on land poisoned by salt water.
I love the idea that an olive tree would survive being totally submerged by brackish water for months - it obviously hadn't grown from seed in a few days. Or was this a miracle?
I also love the idea that the entire ecosystem of the globe could be destroyed then spring immediately back to life in a matter of days.
(But I mostly love that I'm discussing a fairy story with an adult as though it was true.)
Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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mindspawn
Member (Idle past 2660 days)
Posts: 1015
Joined: 10-22-2012


Message 187 of 991 (705574)
08-29-2013 5:03 AM
Reply to: Message 186 by Tangle
08-29-2013 3:32 AM


Re: But the Biblical Flood myths have been totally refuted.
According to the book, Noah released his animals as soon as the land was dry enough for him to do it.
True, which refutes Mr Jacks argument that Noah released the animals BEFORE the land was dry enough to do it.
The book says after 5 months of land showing, he released the animals. (from the first of the 10th month until the 27th of the 2nd month)
Noah's ark was sat on a mountain, so even though he was dry, he had to wait a while for the bath water to drain out. (Where to?)
I love the idea that anything could grow on land poisoned by salt water.
I love the idea that an olive tree would survive being totally submerged by brackish water for months - it obviously hadn't grown from seed in a few days. Or was this a miracle?
I also love the idea that the entire ecosystem of the globe could be destroyed then spring immediately back to life in a matter of days.
(But I mostly love that I'm discussing a fairy story with an adult as though it was true.)
Its was 54 days after the first land was exposed, that the olive tree sprouted. Seeds can last many months of waterlogging and still survive. They only had to last 5 months, because until then the earth was being covered with water, or the waters were receding. Mountaintops were then only covered for 150 days. The Genesis story says that the waters only prevailed for 150 days (Genesis 7:24).
Salt is only thick on soil when there is evaporation, this was a marine transgression followed soon after by a marine regression. Salted soil needs a freshwater rinsing of the topsoil and then compost for rapid restoration. Rainfalls and rotting plant debris could have done so in the 47 days following the flood, allowing those first plants to take hold. With all that natural compost it was perfect for plant growth that could have rooted in the debris at first and not even in the soil.
Many plants do not need an ecosystem, just soil, water and light.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 186 by Tangle, posted 08-29-2013 3:32 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
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mindspawn
Member (Idle past 2660 days)
Posts: 1015
Joined: 10-22-2012


Message 188 of 991 (705575)
08-29-2013 5:20 AM
Reply to: Message 179 by ringo
08-28-2013 11:55 AM


If there were two cats and two mice, the mice would be extinct by suppertime.
And if there were 2 cats and 14 mice, 14 rats, 14 moles, 14 deer, 14 moose, 14 springbok, 14 wildebees, 14 giraffes, 14 wild boar, 14 cattle, 14 pigs, 14 rabbits, 14 koala bears, 14 ostriches?
And 2 dogs and 14 elephants, 14 buffalo, 14 camels, 14 sheep, 14 goats, 14 hamsters, 14 lizards, 14 frogs, 14 zebra, 14 dodos, 14 mammoths?
Plus many stranded fish.
There are so many possible scenarios that the argument that animals could not survive the disembarking of the ark is a very unrealistic stance.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 179 by ringo, posted 08-28-2013 11:55 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
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Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 189 of 991 (705583)
08-29-2013 7:36 AM
Reply to: Message 187 by mindspawn
08-29-2013 5:03 AM


Re: But the Biblical Flood myths have been totally refuted.
mindspawn writes:
The book says after 5 months of land showing, he released the animals. (from the first of the 10th month until the 27th of the 2nd month)
No it doesn't. It says that when the land was dry enough, he released the animals. ie before he released the animals, the land was not dry. If the land was not dry, it was still wet and would not contain any life.
Try soaking your lawn in seawater for a few months, then see how long it takes to recover. Clue: it doesn't recover; it's been poisoned.
Its was 54 days after the first land was exposed, that the olive tree sprouted.
The operative word is "tree". You know, bloody big bushy thing?
The rest of your musings are just too silly to address - sorry, this is childish nonsense.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

This message is a reply to:
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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 190 of 991 (705585)
08-29-2013 7:49 AM
Reply to: Message 185 by mindspawn
08-29-2013 3:00 AM


Re: But the Biblical Flood myths have been totally refuted.
You need to understand that I and many others here actually DO read the Bible. In fact I am a devout Christian for well over a half century and have helped found churches, build churches, teach adult and children's Sunday School.
The Biblical Flood stories are just myths and is the Exodus, the conquest of Canaan, the Garden of Eden, the Tower of Babel and many other parts of both the old and new Testaments.
Go read Message 3 again.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 185 by mindspawn, posted 08-29-2013 3:00 AM mindspawn has replied

Replies to this message:
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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 191 of 991 (705595)
08-29-2013 9:27 AM
Reply to: Message 185 by mindspawn
08-29-2013 3:00 AM


Re: But the Biblical Flood myths have been totally refuted.
TO: Jar, Mr Jack, Tangle, Catholic Scientist, Ringo, Coyote
I understand that you guys don't read the bible
What? Fuck you, man. Don't be a dick.

This message is a reply to:
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ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 192 of 991 (705604)
08-29-2013 11:44 AM
Reply to: Message 188 by mindspawn
08-29-2013 5:20 AM


mindspawn writes:
And if there were 2 cats and 14 mice....
Why would there be 2 cats and 14 mice? It's either 2 and 2 or 14 and 14.
It's true that there would be a disproportionate number of "clean" animals but clean species are a small minority. Going 2 by 2 would also mean a disproportionate ratio of predators to prey.
mindspawn writes:
Plus many stranded fish.
Cows don't eat fish.
mindspawn writes:
There are so many possible scenarios that the argument that animals could not survive the disembarking of the ark is a very unrealistic stance.
On the contrary, there are no realistic scenarios. Have you really thought any of your "possibilities" through?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 188 by mindspawn, posted 08-29-2013 5:20 AM mindspawn has replied

Replies to this message:
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ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(2)
Message 193 of 991 (705606)
08-29-2013 11:51 AM
Reply to: Message 185 by mindspawn
08-29-2013 3:00 AM


Re: But the Biblical Flood myths have been totally refuted.
mindspawn writes:
For this discussion to get more scientific you would require proof that its impossible for sufficient vegetation to gain a foothold after a 7 month flood.
You have that backwards. You would have to show that it can.
It's a simple enough experiment: Put a variety of plants into terrariums, cover them with water of varying salinity for varying lengths of time, then drain the terrariums and observe the results.
Has that experiment been done by creationists? No? I wonder why.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 185 by mindspawn, posted 08-29-2013 3:00 AM mindspawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 200 by mindspawn, posted 08-30-2013 3:50 AM ringo has replied

  
mindspawn
Member (Idle past 2660 days)
Posts: 1015
Joined: 10-22-2012


Message 194 of 991 (705628)
08-30-2013 2:50 AM
Reply to: Message 189 by Tangle
08-29-2013 7:36 AM


Re: But the Biblical Flood myths have been totally refuted.
No it doesn't. It says that when the land was dry enough, he released the animals. ie before he released the animals, the land was not dry. If the land was not dry, it was still wet and would not contain any life.
Try soaking your lawn in seawater for a few months, then see how long it takes to recover. Clue: it doesn't recover; it's been poisoned.
This is a very confident assertion that land that has been drained of seawater is poisoned for longer than 5 months. Where is your science to back that up? This is a science forum, not speculation.
The operative word is "tree". You know, bloody big bushy thing?
The rest of your musings are just too silly to address - sorry, this is childish nonsense.
It was an olive leaf, not an olive tree. See verse 11 in post 186

This message is a reply to:
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mindspawn
Member (Idle past 2660 days)
Posts: 1015
Joined: 10-22-2012


Message 195 of 991 (705629)
08-30-2013 2:57 AM
Reply to: Message 178 by New Cat's Eye
08-28-2013 9:39 AM


Herding animals and migratory animals could survive the initial exiting, but there's no way to sustain a big enough populations for the species to survive as a whole.
On what basis? This sounds like pure speculation, you need some facts to back this up. You need to prove the following:
1) Seeds cannot survive 5 months in water
2) Salt water poisons land beyond recovery in 5 months, even after rainfall and rotting vegetation have covered the soil.
3) Plants cannot grow from the rotting vegetation that would have been abundant after the flood.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 178 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-28-2013 9:39 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

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