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Author Topic:   Biblical Eugenics - being wrong about how to colorize your goats
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 16 of 185 (706559)
09-14-2013 8:47 AM
Reply to: Message 14 by Alias
09-13-2013 7:40 PM


It does not state god told him to do it. This does not hurt literalist's at all.

The Bible describes the silly tactic as actually working. Do you not see a problem with that?


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I believe that a scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy.
Richard P. Feynman

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by Alias, posted 09-13-2013 7:40 PM Alias has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by Alias, posted 09-14-2013 10:37 AM NoNukes has responded

  
Alias
Inactive Member


Message 17 of 185 (706560)
09-14-2013 10:12 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by jar
09-13-2013 8:01 PM


Re: Making stuff up.
Hello jar, I have read this passage several times and also read different versions. It seems that in verse 35 (context of v 32-33) jacob removed the sparkled, spotted and streaked flock from laban's stock. Then in verse 37-39 jacob used the flock "he removed from laban's flock and gave to his sons" to breed (hence his request in v 32-33) and they bore sparkled, spotted and streaked flock in 39. We can also see that Jacob had access to the streaked, sparkled and spotted flock in 30:40

quote:
'Jacob set apart the young of the flock by themselves, but made the rest face the streaked and dark-colored animals that belonged to Laban. Thus he made separate flocks for himself and did not put them with Laban’s animals.'

In verse 41 jacob kept the strong animals and used them to breed for himself more strong animals. The idea I'm seeing is the branches were used to help breed (hence why they were in front of the flock as they mated) and it also seems he used the branches to breed stronger animals since that's what he kept.

I think the issue is that this story is not clear in verse 35-36. I feel it does change the entire context of the story depending on how you interpret those verses. Verse 32 makes it more clear that jacob is the one referred to in 35 (hence the request that he removes the flock) (laban has no sons and 35 reads he gave them to his sons). Some may interpret 35 as laban removing the flock due to 34 because 34 is laban and in 35 it uses "he" for the third word (a pronoun in english perhaps not in the original writings) (ref to jacob though which it also seems like it could refer to laban) making it seem like jacob started with non sparkled, streaked, or spotted flock in 38. In 36 laban left leaving 3 days between him and jacob, and then ALSO (on top of jacob removing the flock and giving the flock to his sons in 35) jacob tended the other flock of labans in 36. Ultimately if you read 35 as jacob is removing the flock noted in the verse and reusing them to breed near the branches (his wages) it does not read as though he thought the branches were making them spotted, streaked or sparkled. It does also seem as though the breeding of new flock was to breed his wages. AGAIN as mentioned earlier if you read 30:40 it does make it more clear that jacob removed the flock in 35 because he has access to them in 30:40.

Edited by Alias, : Clarity

Edited by Alias, : err fix

Edited by Alias, : clarity

Edited by Alias, : clarity

Edited by Alias, : clarity

Edited by Alias, : clarity

Edited by Alias, : clarity

Edited by Alias, : clarity

Edited by Alias, : clarity

Edited by Alias, : clarity


Thanks
Alias :-)

FYI:

"Imagination is more important than knowledge." -Albert Einstein

"One of the saddest lessons of history is this: if we've been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We're no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It is simply too painful to acknowledge, even to ourselves, that we've been taken. Once you give a charlatan power over you, you almost never get it back" - Carl Sagan -Demon Haunted World

"The whole history of science has been the gradual realization that events do not happen in an arbitrary manner, but that they reflect a certain underlying order, which may or may not be divinely inspired." -Stephen Hawking

"Before God we are all equally wise and equally foolish." -Albert Einstein


This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by jar, posted 09-13-2013 8:01 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by jar, posted 09-14-2013 10:23 AM Alias has responded
 Message 34 by NoNukes, posted 09-15-2013 1:57 PM Alias has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30846
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 18 of 185 (706561)
09-14-2013 10:23 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by Alias
09-14-2013 10:12 AM


Re: Making stuff up.
Jacob had NO flock and his job was taking care of Laban's flock. His payment was to be the streaked, spotted and striped goats and the dark lambs.

It is pretty clear in ALL the various translations and versions exactly what is happening; Jacob is maximizing his payment by increasing the incidence of streaked, striped and spotted goats and dark lambs.

But the important point is that in the story his trick with the branches works.

That is factually wrong.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by Alias, posted 09-14-2013 10:12 AM Alias has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by Alias, posted 09-14-2013 10:39 AM jar has acknowledged this reply

  
Alias
Inactive Member


Message 19 of 185 (706562)
09-14-2013 10:37 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by NoNukes
09-14-2013 8:47 AM


NoNukes writes:

The Bible describes the silly tactic as actually working. Do you not see a problem with that?

No. I am not a bible literalist. I don't think the bible is inerrant. I feel it is corrupt but you have to sift through it to find important god inspired scriptures. God inspired does not mean god wrote it, it just means "maybe" a prophet wrote it. I am a skeptic but also a theist (agnostic theist).

Edited by Alias, : quote


Thanks
Alias :-)

FYI:

"Imagination is more important than knowledge." -Albert Einstein

"One of the saddest lessons of history is this: if we've been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We're no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It is simply too painful to acknowledge, even to ourselves, that we've been taken. Once you give a charlatan power over you, you almost never get it back" - Carl Sagan -Demon Haunted World

"The whole history of science has been the gradual realization that events do not happen in an arbitrary manner, but that they reflect a certain underlying order, which may or may not be divinely inspired." -Stephen Hawking

"Before God we are all equally wise and equally foolish." -Albert Einstein


This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by NoNukes, posted 09-14-2013 8:47 AM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by Theodoric, posted 09-14-2013 1:36 PM Alias has responded
 Message 27 by NoNukes, posted 09-15-2013 3:31 AM Alias has responded
 Message 38 by Larni, posted 09-15-2013 2:25 PM Alias has responded

  
Alias
Inactive Member


Message 20 of 185 (706563)
09-14-2013 10:39 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by jar
09-14-2013 10:23 AM


Re: Making stuff up.
Ref to post 17.

Thanks
Alias :-)

FYI:

"Imagination is more important than knowledge." -Albert Einstein

"One of the saddest lessons of history is this: if we've been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We're no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It is simply too painful to acknowledge, even to ourselves, that we've been taken. Once you give a charlatan power over you, you almost never get it back" - Carl Sagan -Demon Haunted World

"The whole history of science has been the gradual realization that events do not happen in an arbitrary manner, but that they reflect a certain underlying order, which may or may not be divinely inspired." -Stephen Hawking

"Before God we are all equally wise and equally foolish." -Albert Einstein


This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by jar, posted 09-14-2013 10:23 AM jar has acknowledged this reply

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 5777
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005


Message 21 of 185 (706567)
09-14-2013 1:36 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by Alias
09-14-2013 10:37 AM


Lets look at your signature quotes. Because context is everything.

"Imagination is more important than knowledge." -Albert Einstein

Now in context.

quote:
I believe in intuition and inspiration. … At times I feel certain I am right while not knowing the reason. When the eclipse of 1919 confirmed my intuition, I was not in the least surprised. In fact I would have been astonished had it turned out otherwise. Imagination is more important than knowledge. For knowledge is limited, whereas imagination embraces the entire world, stimulating progress, giving birth to evolution. It is, strictly speaking, a real factor in scientific research.

Cosmic Religion : With Other Opinions and Aphorisms (1931) by Albert Einstein, p. 97

"Before God we are all equally wise and equally foolish."

This probably not an actual Einstein quote. There is no original source.
http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Talk:Albert_Einstein

I am not sure what point you are trying to get across with these quotes and the quotes by Hawking and Sagan.


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by Alias, posted 09-14-2013 10:37 AM Alias has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by Alias, posted 09-14-2013 2:15 PM Theodoric has responded

    
Alias
Inactive Member


Message 22 of 185 (706569)
09-14-2013 2:15 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by Theodoric
09-14-2013 1:36 PM


Haha. Poor you. You can't come up with a good argument. Evolution is an imaginative thought. The same facts that support it support intelligent design. If you want to talk about it let's open up that conversation. FYI: evolution is not contrary to creationism (pantheism).

ALSO Let's add context to your quote. Here is another one from Einstein.


“I believe in Spinoza's God, who reveals Himself in the lawful harmony of the world, not in a God who concerns Himself with the fate and the doings of mankind...

to Rabbi Herbert Goldstein (1929)”

― Albert Einstein

Ref

Edited by Alias, : Clarity

Edited by Alias, : Clarity

Edited by Alias, : Clarity

Edited by Alias, : Quote


Thanks
Alias :-)

FYI:

"Imagination is more important than knowledge." -Albert Einstein

"One of the saddest lessons of history is this: if we've been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We're no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It is simply too painful to acknowledge, even to ourselves, that we've been taken. Once you give a charlatan power over you, you almost never get it back" - Carl Sagan -Demon Haunted World

"The whole history of science has been the gradual realization that events do not happen in an arbitrary manner, but that they reflect a certain underlying order, which may or may not be divinely inspired." -Stephen Hawking

"Before God we are all equally wise and equally foolish." -Albert Einstein


This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by Theodoric, posted 09-14-2013 1:36 PM Theodoric has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by Coyote, posted 09-14-2013 2:52 PM Alias has responded
 Message 25 by Theodoric, posted 09-14-2013 10:14 PM Alias has responded

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 23 of 185 (706571)
09-14-2013 2:52 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by Alias
09-14-2013 2:15 PM


Nonsense
Evolution is an imaginative thought. The same facts that support it support intelligent design.

This is patently false.

But it is off-topic here. Start up a new thread and we can discuss it at length.


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers


This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by Alias, posted 09-14-2013 2:15 PM Alias has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by Alias, posted 09-14-2013 3:02 PM Coyote has not yet responded

  
Alias
Inactive Member


Message 24 of 185 (706572)
09-14-2013 3:02 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by Coyote
09-14-2013 2:52 PM


Re: Nonsense
If its off topic then "you people" need to stop asserting. Go ahead start a new topic. Patently false, lol hahaha!

Thanks
Alias :-)

FYI:

"Imagination is more important than knowledge." -Albert Einstein

"One of the saddest lessons of history is this: if we've been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We're no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It is simply too painful to acknowledge, even to ourselves, that we've been taken. Once you give a charlatan power over you, you almost never get it back" - Carl Sagan -Demon Haunted World

"The whole history of science has been the gradual realization that events do not happen in an arbitrary manner, but that they reflect a certain underlying order, which may or may not be divinely inspired." -Stephen Hawking

"Before God we are all equally wise and equally foolish." -Albert Einstein


This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by Coyote, posted 09-14-2013 2:52 PM Coyote has not yet responded

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 5777
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005


Message 25 of 185 (706578)
09-14-2013 10:14 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by Alias
09-14-2013 2:15 PM


What does anything Mr. Einstein said have to do with evolution or this topic?

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by Alias, posted 09-14-2013 2:15 PM Alias has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by Alias, posted 09-14-2013 10:21 PM Theodoric has not yet responded

    
Alias
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 26 of 185 (706579)
09-14-2013 10:21 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by Theodoric
09-14-2013 10:14 PM


I was responding to you. You started that conversation. Ask yourself.

Thanks
Alias :-)

FYI:

"Imagination is more important than knowledge." -Albert Einstein

"One of the saddest lessons of history is this: if we've been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We're no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It is simply too painful to acknowledge, even to ourselves, that we've been taken. Once you give a charlatan power over you, you almost never get it back" - Carl Sagan -Demon Haunted World

"The whole history of science has been the gradual realization that events do not happen in an arbitrary manner, but that they reflect a certain underlying order, which may or may not be divinely inspired." -Stephen Hawking

"Before God we are all equally wise and equally foolish." -Albert Einstein


This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by Theodoric, posted 09-14-2013 10:14 PM Theodoric has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 27 of 185 (706581)
09-15-2013 3:31 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by Alias
09-14-2013 10:37 AM


NoNukes writes:

The Bible describes the silly tactic as actually working. Do you not see a problem with that?

To which you replied.

No. I am not a bible literalist. I don't think the bible is inerrant.

That's fine. But the claim I am asking you defend is the one I quote below in which you claim that the sheep breeding story can be taken literally.

Alias writes:

This does not hurt literalist's at all.

Really? Any defense for this?


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I believe that a scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy.
Richard P. Feynman

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by Alias, posted 09-14-2013 10:37 AM Alias has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by Alias, posted 09-15-2013 12:48 PM NoNukes has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 28 of 185 (706582)
09-15-2013 3:41 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by jar
09-12-2013 3:28 PM


Re: a test for honesty.
But it is an interesting passage since it shows Jacob conning Laban and becoming rich through the con job.

After reading the story several times, it appears to me that Jacob can be excused for his con, because he was actually conning a cheater.

After making the deal with Jacob, Laban then stacks the deck in his own favor by removing all of the parents with any coloring on them and put them in a separate flock from the one that Jacob would watch over. Laban expected his deal with Jacob would be wage free.

Jacob then found a way to produce speckled animals anyway and used his trick on only the strongest animals in the Laban's flock.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I believe that a scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy.
Richard P. Feynman

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by jar, posted 09-12-2013 3:28 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by jar, posted 09-15-2013 8:48 AM NoNukes has not yet responded
 Message 31 by Alias, posted 09-15-2013 12:51 PM NoNukes has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30846
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 29 of 185 (706584)
09-15-2013 8:48 AM
Reply to: Message 28 by NoNukes
09-15-2013 3:41 AM


Re: a test for honesty.
Even if that were true I don't see how that makes anything justified but I do think that is likely the point of the story. If you read the passages before the goat story you similar patterns.

These were fireside stories and fables and stories about getting even were common.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by NoNukes, posted 09-15-2013 3:41 AM NoNukes has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by Alias, posted 09-15-2013 12:54 PM jar has acknowledged this reply

  
Alias
Inactive Member


Message 30 of 185 (706589)
09-15-2013 12:48 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by NoNukes
09-15-2013 3:31 AM


NoNukes writes:

That's fine. But the claim I am asking you defend is the one I quote below in which you claim that the sheep breeding story can be taken literally.

Alias writes:

This does not hurt literalist's at all.

NoNukes writes:

Really? Any defense for this?

Well what theological reason is there to defend it? I don't see how Jacob not understanding that "using the branches" will not help the "flock mate or breed stronger flock" harms the bible from a literalist vantage. It does show the lack of scientific understanding for a ancient individual but isn't that expected? So literally we learn ancients didn't understand genetics. How does this harm the overall vantage of the bible being interpreted literally as the word of god? It has no reflection on god at all since this was not an instruction from god. There certainly is nothing going on that the atheists are claiming in this thread either (it is expected for atheists to interpret this story as per their claims in this thread though). There is no con happening (again expected for atheists to read it this way). There is no eugenics happening (expected for atheists to read it this way). I don't know that atheists manipulate this story to be dishonest or just because of their natural vantage of things overall, so they don't realize that they are merely interpreting it that way. In any case, I am not a christian nor a literalist and my interpretation of this is simply "Jacob getting paid by Laban". Verse 30:30 - 30:34. Refer to my other posts for my other points against other claims in this thread.

Genesis 30:30-34 NIV writes:

30 The little you had before I came has increased greatly, and the LORD has blessed you wherever I have been. But now, when may I do something for my own household?”

31 “What shall I give you?” he asked. “Don’t give me anything,” Jacob replied. “But if you will do this one thing for me, I will go on tending your flocks and watching over them:

32 Let me go through all your flocks today and remove from them every speckled or spotted sheep, every dark-colored lamb and every spotted or speckled goat. They will be my wages.

33 And my honesty will testify for me in the future, whenever you check on the wages you have paid me. Any goat in my possession that is not speckled or spotted, or any lamb that is not dark-colored, will be considered stolen.”

34 “Agreed,” said Laban. “Let it be as you have said.”

Then if you follow this story into chapter 31 we find laban meeting up with jacob after jacob leaves. Laban has nothing to say about the flock/payment (except that everything is his which is not true because it was payment AND he must pay for the work of Jacob as is mentioned over and over) however he was technically upset about his gods being taken and his children/grandchildren being taken without a goodbye (which his own daughter stole the gods). Technically labans children/grand children are also Jacobs since they are his wives/children and they don't HAVE to say goodbye..... I mean all this noise in this thread is silly.


Thanks
Alias :-)

FYI:

"Imagination is more important than knowledge." -Albert Einstein

"One of the saddest lessons of history is this: if we've been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We're no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It is simply too painful to acknowledge, even to ourselves, that we've been taken. Once you give a charlatan power over you, you almost never get it back" - Carl Sagan -Demon Haunted World

"The whole history of science has been the gradual realization that events do not happen in an arbitrary manner, but that they reflect a certain underlying order, which may or may not be divinely inspired." -Stephen Hawking

"Before God we are all equally wise and equally foolish." -Albert Einstein


This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by NoNukes, posted 09-15-2013 3:31 AM NoNukes has not yet responded

  
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