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Author Topic:   Biblical Eugenics - being wrong about how to colorize your goats
Alias
Inactive Member


Message 61 of 185 (706665)
09-16-2013 9:23 AM
Reply to: Message 56 by Coyote
09-16-2013 12:05 AM


Re: Off-topic and nonsense besides
Right, which you knew would happen yet you engaged... Good way to withdraw I suppose.

Thanks
Alias :-)

FYI:

"Imagination is more important than knowledge." -Albert Einstein

"One of the saddest lessons of history is this: if we've been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We're no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It is simply too painful to acknowledge, even to ourselves, that we've been taken. Once you give a charlatan power over you, you almost never get it back" - Carl Sagan -Demon Haunted World

"The whole history of science has been the gradual realization that events do not happen in an arbitrary manner, but that they reflect a certain underlying order, which may or may not be divinely inspired." -Stephen Hawking

"Before God we are all equally wise and equally foolish." -Albert Einstein


This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by Coyote, posted 09-16-2013 12:05 AM Coyote has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 62 of 185 (706669)
09-16-2013 9:49 AM
Reply to: Message 60 by Alias
09-16-2013 9:20 AM


Re: a test for honesty.
35 does not make it clear laban removed the animals. It would be clear if it read laban removed the animals but that is not how it reads.

What I actually said was that verses 35 and 36 make it was clear that someone removed the animals. Do you disagree with that?

I also said that verse 36 made it clear that Jacob was tending Laban's flocks after the colored animals were removed. I note you did not respond to that. I note that you also have provided no explanation for the fact that verse 40 says that after someone, let's say Jacob to avoid the issue, removed all of the colored animals from Laban's flock, Laban still had colored animals.

And in your last paragraph when you admit they are facing laban's colored animals you expect me to believe that they were 3 days apart from Jacob

No I don't expect you to believe that. Despite the fact that I've demonstrated that the text requires that result, and that your own interpretation is completely fubar, I expected you to continue to defend the indefensible. What disappoints me is that you did not bother to do even that.

I note that your post does not contain a single argument. Instead you try to "lol" your way through. I don't see much reason to respond to that stuff.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I believe that a scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy.
Richard P. Feynman

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by Alias, posted 09-16-2013 9:20 AM Alias has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 64 by Alias, posted 09-16-2013 12:15 PM NoNukes has responded

  
Alias
Inactive Member


Message 63 of 185 (706670)
09-16-2013 10:04 AM
Reply to: Message 59 by NoNukes
09-16-2013 9:10 AM


Re: a test for honesty.
I'll take your first point that since I don't believe Jesus walked on water so why should you believe your version of gen 30-31. FYI: my version of 30 is different than fundies point of view that's something i'm proud of but that does not quantify to trash talking the story since I'm standing up for what the story reads hence verse 30:40 that the colored flock were with jacob as he removed them in v 35. There is value to the story and it is god helped the faithful. I'll agree to that point.

Edited by Alias, : Err


Thanks
Alias :-)

FYI:

"Imagination is more important than knowledge." -Albert Einstein

"One of the saddest lessons of history is this: if we've been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We're no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It is simply too painful to acknowledge, even to ourselves, that we've been taken. Once you give a charlatan power over you, you almost never get it back" - Carl Sagan -Demon Haunted World

"The whole history of science has been the gradual realization that events do not happen in an arbitrary manner, but that they reflect a certain underlying order, which may or may not be divinely inspired." -Stephen Hawking

"Before God we are all equally wise and equally foolish." -Albert Einstein


This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by NoNukes, posted 09-16-2013 9:10 AM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 65 by NoNukes, posted 09-16-2013 12:28 PM Alias has responded

  
Alias
Inactive Member


Message 64 of 185 (706678)
09-16-2013 12:15 PM
Reply to: Message 62 by NoNukes
09-16-2013 9:49 AM


Re: a test for honesty.
I'm going to respond to the main conversation. In verse 30:40 it reads that Jacob faced the young, that were born in 39, toward the colored flock of Laban's. It even states it was to seperate his from Laban's which means jacob had access to Laban's colored flock from 35. No where does it suggest laban left colored flock behind after (if laban removed them in 35) removing them in 35. If we read it as Jacob removing them in 35, 30:40 is much more clear as is the whole passage due to their agreement in 32-34 and in CH 29 where it reads laban wanted to pay Jacob something (vs cheating him).

Thanks
Alias :-)

FYI:

"Imagination is more important than knowledge." -Albert Einstein

"One of the saddest lessons of history is this: if we've been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We're no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It is simply too painful to acknowledge, even to ourselves, that we've been taken. Once you give a charlatan power over you, you almost never get it back" - Carl Sagan -Demon Haunted World

"The whole history of science has been the gradual realization that events do not happen in an arbitrary manner, but that they reflect a certain underlying order, which may or may not be divinely inspired." -Stephen Hawking

"Before God we are all equally wise and equally foolish." -Albert Einstein


This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by NoNukes, posted 09-16-2013 9:49 AM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 66 by NoNukes, posted 09-16-2013 12:32 PM Alias has responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 65 of 185 (706679)
09-16-2013 12:28 PM
Reply to: Message 63 by Alias
09-16-2013 10:04 AM


Reading comprehension.
I'll take your first point that since I don't believe Jesus walked on water so why should you believe your version of gen 30-31.

FYI: my version of 30 is different than fundies point of view that's something i'm proud of but that does not quantify to trash talking the story since I'm standing up for what the story

Being different from fundies is nothing really noteworthy. Fundies often read the Bible correctly, even when they take the meaning in literal was that were never intended. But having done so, fundies often end up straining at gnats.

In my opinion, and this is strictly my opinion, you seem willing to distort the story of Jacob beyond what the text actually says because you don't find any value in the story actually told in the text. I don't see that as standing up for the story. Your intentions are good, but the Bible does not need the kind of help you are offering.

As I see it, the story, true or false, is about the relationship and dispute between Laban and Jacob, and might well be similar to any dispute you might have with your brother man. In that respect the story is universal. In resolving the dispute, Jacob consults God, and Laban apparently does not.

As far as the meat of the story is concerned, it matters very little whether you can actually affect sheep biology using rods. So for me, the genetics part of the story is interesting, but of little importance. But for you and the fundamentalists apparently the issue of where striped sheep come from is essential. Well at least the fundies version of the tale is coherent. You have yet to tell me where the Laban's colored sheep mentioned in verse 40 could have come from.

The Grasshopper and the Ant episode never happened. Ants cannot talk. But to try to find some way to read the story so that the insects are not actually talking is ro miss the entire point.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I believe that a scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy.
Richard P. Feynman

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by Alias, posted 09-16-2013 10:04 AM Alias has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 69 by Alias, posted 09-16-2013 1:14 PM NoNukes has responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 66 of 185 (706680)
09-16-2013 12:32 PM
Reply to: Message 64 by Alias
09-16-2013 12:15 PM


Re: a test for honesty.
If we read it as Jacob removing them in 35, 30:40 is much more clear as is the whole passage due to their agreement in 32-34 and in CH 29 where it reads laban wanted to pay Jacob something (vs cheating him).

Verse 40 unequivocably refers to Laban's colored cattle. How does Laban manage to still have any colored cattle?


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I believe that a scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy.
Richard P. Feynman

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by Alias, posted 09-16-2013 12:15 PM Alias has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 67 by Alias, posted 09-16-2013 12:41 PM NoNukes has not yet responded
 Message 68 by Alias, posted 09-16-2013 12:47 PM NoNukes has responded

  
Alias
Inactive Member


Message 67 of 185 (706681)
09-16-2013 12:41 PM
Reply to: Message 66 by NoNukes
09-16-2013 12:32 PM


Re: a test for honesty.
??? Your second sentence answers your first.

Thanks
Alias :-)

FYI:

"Imagination is more important than knowledge." -Albert Einstein

"One of the saddest lessons of history is this: if we've been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We're no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It is simply too painful to acknowledge, even to ourselves, that we've been taken. Once you give a charlatan power over you, you almost never get it back" - Carl Sagan -Demon Haunted World

"The whole history of science has been the gradual realization that events do not happen in an arbitrary manner, but that they reflect a certain underlying order, which may or may not be divinely inspired." -Stephen Hawking

"Before God we are all equally wise and equally foolish." -Albert Einstein


This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by NoNukes, posted 09-16-2013 12:32 PM NoNukes has not yet responded

  
Alias
Inactive Member


Message 68 of 185 (706682)
09-16-2013 12:47 PM
Reply to: Message 66 by NoNukes
09-16-2013 12:32 PM


Re: a test for honesty.
Maybe this will clear it up. The agreement in 32 between laban and Jacob was for Jacob to breed colored/spotted, etc flock using Laban's flock as wages from laban. That way there is no gift from laban as per 31. Then it took place.

Edited by Alias, : Clarity


Thanks
Alias :-)

FYI:

"Imagination is more important than knowledge." -Albert Einstein

"One of the saddest lessons of history is this: if we've been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We're no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It is simply too painful to acknowledge, even to ourselves, that we've been taken. Once you give a charlatan power over you, you almost never get it back" - Carl Sagan -Demon Haunted World

"The whole history of science has been the gradual realization that events do not happen in an arbitrary manner, but that they reflect a certain underlying order, which may or may not be divinely inspired." -Stephen Hawking

"Before God we are all equally wise and equally foolish." -Albert Einstein


This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by NoNukes, posted 09-16-2013 12:32 PM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 71 by NoNukes, posted 09-16-2013 2:27 PM Alias has responded
 Message 72 by PaulK, posted 09-16-2013 2:52 PM Alias has responded

  
Alias
Inactive Member


Message 69 of 185 (706683)
09-16-2013 1:14 PM
Reply to: Message 65 by NoNukes
09-16-2013 12:28 PM


Re: Reading comprehension.
Laban's colored sheep in 40 came from the flock Jacob removed in 35 as per the agreemeant in 32. And I'm not doing a diservice to the bible as I'm not claiming god's servant is conning laban (thus making the bible seem as though it is endorsing conning). The passage is not clear and that is why interpretations vary. But I am interpreting it to support biblical thought that a con by god's servant didn't happen and is supported by biblical fact v 30-42. On top of that I will assert that this part of the story does matter because it portrays the morality of god hence why god is helping it's faithful servant.

Edited by Alias, : Clarity

Edited by Alias, : clarity


Thanks
Alias :-)

FYI:

"Imagination is more important than knowledge." -Albert Einstein

"One of the saddest lessons of history is this: if we've been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We're no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It is simply too painful to acknowledge, even to ourselves, that we've been taken. Once you give a charlatan power over you, you almost never get it back" - Carl Sagan -Demon Haunted World

"The whole history of science has been the gradual realization that events do not happen in an arbitrary manner, but that they reflect a certain underlying order, which may or may not be divinely inspired." -Stephen Hawking

"Before God we are all equally wise and equally foolish." -Albert Einstein


This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by NoNukes, posted 09-16-2013 12:28 PM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 70 by NoNukes, posted 09-16-2013 2:21 PM Alias has responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 70 of 185 (706686)
09-16-2013 2:21 PM
Reply to: Message 69 by Alias
09-16-2013 1:14 PM


Re: Reading comprehension.
Laban's colored sheep in 40 came from the flock Jacob removed in 35 as per the agreemeant in 32.

According to your interpretation, those sheep were removed by Jacob according to the agreement in verse 32. If so, then those sheep were not Laban's but were instead Jacob's. But that contradicts both explicit language in verse 40 and your own statement that the sheep in question where Jacob's by agreement.

So why does the Bible call them Laban's? My answer is because your assumption is wrong. Laban removed the sheep and put them in his son's care. If you can resolve the issue without trashing the text in verse 40, I'd like to hear how you do it. But so far you have not done that.

But I am interpreting it to support biblical thought that a con by god's servant didn't happen

Thanks for acknowledging that point. Your reading is a motivated one. It seems that your primary reason for resolving what you consider ambigous is to reach your desired result. But you don't limit your self to chosing meanings for arguably ambigous passages. You continue by rewriting the explicit ones.

It is not necessary to do this to save the story.

Consider the following interpretation. The original agreement can be interpreted to mean that there was an ongoing promise that Jacob would receive the spotted cattle born to Laban's herd. Jacob expected that the spotting would serve as a brand that would avoid any misunderstanding. He also expected that there would be a certain percentage of marked cattle born.

The Laban removes the mottled cattle from the herd. Even if he later returns these cattle to Jacob, his expectation is that the pure white cattle will not produce any more speckled cattle. In short, Jacob will earn no wages for any of his future work with Laban.

Jacob took steps to prevent such an outcome. I have no problem with that. Jar says that such an actions were not justified, but I disagree. Laban's expectations were frustrated, but he intended to cheat Jacob.

it portrays the morality of god hence why god is helping it's faithful servant.

Is Jacob's faithfulness limited to this one incident? Nope. So there is no reason to justify God's rewarding of Jacob. But the rewards you suggest (helping the sheep to mate/making them stronger) simply aren't anywhere in the text.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I believe that a scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy.
Richard P. Feynman

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by Alias, posted 09-16-2013 1:14 PM Alias has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 73 by Alias, posted 09-16-2013 3:06 PM NoNukes has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 71 of 185 (706687)
09-16-2013 2:27 PM
Reply to: Message 68 by Alias
09-16-2013 12:47 PM


Re: a test for honesty.
Maybe this will clear it up.

You aren't clearing anything up. Your making up a new position.

The agreement in 32 between laban and Jacob was for Jacob to breed colored/spotted, etc flock using Laban's flock as wages from laban. That way there is no gift from laban as per 31. Then it took place.

Except that Jacob only had access to the flock of non-spotted cattle after the events of verse 36. There is no way to interpret that verse to say anything different.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I believe that a scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy.
Richard P. Feynman

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by Alias, posted 09-16-2013 12:47 PM Alias has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 75 by Alias, posted 09-16-2013 4:03 PM NoNukes has responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 14490
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 72 of 185 (706688)
09-16-2013 2:52 PM
Reply to: Message 68 by Alias
09-16-2013 12:47 PM


Re: a test for honesty.
quote:

Maybe this will clear it up. The agreement in 32 between laban and Jacob was for Jacob to breed colored/spotted, etc flock using Laban's flock as wages from laban.

That's not what the Bible says:


31 So he said, “What shall I give you?” And Jacob said, “You shall not give me anything. If you will do this one thing for me, I will again pasture and keep your flock: 32 let me pass through your entire flock today, removing from there every speckled and spotted sheep and every black one among the lambs and the spotted and speckled among the goats; and such shall be my wages.

As can be seen, Jacob asked for all the coloured and spotted sheep that were ALREADY in the flock. As wages, not a a gift.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by Alias, posted 09-16-2013 12:47 PM Alias has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 74 by Alias, posted 09-16-2013 3:36 PM PaulK has responded

    
Alias
Inactive Member


Message 73 of 185 (706689)
09-16-2013 3:06 PM
Reply to: Message 70 by NoNukes
09-16-2013 2:21 PM


Re: Reading comprehension.
Answering main point, Jacob removed the flock in 35 to breed His own. Laban asked him what can I give you in 31. Jacob replied nothing. Hence in 35 when Jacob removed them it was merely to breed (not keep. Remove does not quantify to keep) his own as per the agreement in 32 to be paid vs getting a gift. FYI: all interpretations are self serving to an extant including yours. Hence why you say the interpretation that Jacob was genetically modifying them with the branches does not matter as to the main point. This also serves atheists but I don't think I need to draw that out... Here I will happily admit it is a wee bit off of an interpretation but the other interpretation where the con/cheat took place is much more off. It does not stay in the context of CH 29-31 of who laban was and how laban felt about jacob and it does not add up in vs 40 either. FYI: I think most commentaries are even confused in this one if you read them they don't really seem confident. It is not a clear text. FYI: I'm perfectly fine with disagreeing we don't need to argue any further.

Edited by Alias, : Clarity

Edited by Alias, : Err

Edited by Alias, : Fyi


Thanks
Alias :-)

FYI:

"Imagination is more important than knowledge." -Albert Einstein

"One of the saddest lessons of history is this: if we've been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We're no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It is simply too painful to acknowledge, even to ourselves, that we've been taken. Once you give a charlatan power over you, you almost never get it back" - Carl Sagan -Demon Haunted World

"The whole history of science has been the gradual realization that events do not happen in an arbitrary manner, but that they reflect a certain underlying order, which may or may not be divinely inspired." -Stephen Hawking

"Before God we are all equally wise and equally foolish." -Albert Einstein


This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by NoNukes, posted 09-16-2013 2:21 PM NoNukes has not yet responded

  
Alias
Inactive Member


Message 74 of 185 (706690)
09-16-2013 3:36 PM
Reply to: Message 72 by PaulK
09-16-2013 2:52 PM


Re: a test for honesty.
Right. I don't disagree but it rings more true that this is what is meant is that he was using them to breed vs taking laban's. If laban took them in 35 it does not make sense to his character in prev chapters or next chapters. Laban would not cheat Jacob and Jacob would not con Laban. Plus the con/cheat interpretation does not answer v 40. You have to say he was facing them toward laban's flock that were 3 days apart. Which still does not answer how it reads Jacob was separating his from laban's in 40 as well. Anyway I made my point. Glad you get it. You do not need to agree as I will admit both interpretations are arguable. I just don't accept the con/cheat interpretation, it seems less plausible in my mind. FYI this post was meant for nonukes but it is just the same to paulk. I didn't realize Paul responded. Small print on smartphone. Sorry. FYI: hello paulk.

Edited by Alias, : End

Edited by Alias, : Paulk m


Thanks
Alias :-)

FYI:

"Imagination is more important than knowledge." -Albert Einstein

"One of the saddest lessons of history is this: if we've been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We're no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It is simply too painful to acknowledge, even to ourselves, that we've been taken. Once you give a charlatan power over you, you almost never get it back" - Carl Sagan -Demon Haunted World

"The whole history of science has been the gradual realization that events do not happen in an arbitrary manner, but that they reflect a certain underlying order, which may or may not be divinely inspired." -Stephen Hawking

"Before God we are all equally wise and equally foolish." -Albert Einstein


This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by PaulK, posted 09-16-2013 2:52 PM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 76 by PaulK, posted 09-16-2013 4:05 PM Alias has responded

  
Alias
Inactive Member


Message 75 of 185 (706691)
09-16-2013 4:03 PM
Reply to: Message 71 by NoNukes
09-16-2013 2:27 PM


Re: a test for honesty.
Actually I have cleared it up, vs 40 contradicts the con cheat interpretation. How could Jacob have access to laban's colored flock to con laban in v 40, to seperate them from laban's colored flock, if laban removed his colored flock in v 35 and cheated Jacob from removing them?

Thanks
Alias :-)

FYI:

"Imagination is more important than knowledge." -Albert Einstein

"One of the saddest lessons of history is this: if we've been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We're no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It is simply too painful to acknowledge, even to ourselves, that we've been taken. Once you give a charlatan power over you, you almost never get it back" - Carl Sagan -Demon Haunted World

"The whole history of science has been the gradual realization that events do not happen in an arbitrary manner, but that they reflect a certain underlying order, which may or may not be divinely inspired." -Stephen Hawking

"Before God we are all equally wise and equally foolish." -Albert Einstein


This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by NoNukes, posted 09-16-2013 2:27 PM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 79 by NoNukes, posted 09-16-2013 4:35 PM Alias has responded

  
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