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Author Topic:   Biblical Eugenics - being wrong about how to colorize your goats
PaulK
Member
Posts: 14343
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 76 of 185 (706692)
09-16-2013 4:05 PM
Reply to: Message 74 by Alias
09-16-2013 3:36 PM


Re: a test for honesty.
quote:

Right. I don't disagree but it rings more true that this is what is meant is that he was using them to breed vs taking laban's.

Well, no, that isn't what it means.

quote:

If laban took them in 35 it does not make sense to his character in prev chapters or next chapters. Laban would not cheat Jacob and Jacob would not con Laban.

Laban already tricked Jacob into marrying Leah instead of Rachel in the previous chapter. In the following chapter Jacob claims that Laban has:


cheated me and changed my wages ten times
(31:7)

quote:

Plus the con/cheat interpretation does not answer v 40. You have to say he was facing them toward laban's flock that were 3 days apart.

Or possibly it means the new lambs, born in verse 39 and only separated from Laban's flock in the following part of verse 40.

Moreover, if we have to reject a verse, surely it should be the verse that doesn't fit rather than does that do.

quote:

You do not need to agree as I will admit both interpretations are arguable

I don't view what you are doing as "interpretation".

quote:

I just don't accept the con/cheat interpretation, it seems less plausible in my mind.

In the light of verse 31:7, then the con/cheat interpretation seems right to me. Unless you view that as one of Jacob's lies.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by Alias, posted 09-16-2013 3:36 PM Alias has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 78 by Alias, posted 09-16-2013 4:34 PM PaulK has responded

    
Larni
Member
Posts: 3954
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 77 of 185 (706693)
09-16-2013 4:32 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by Alias
09-15-2013 2:48 PM


Re: a test for honesty.
So no resurrection, then?

The above ontological example models the zero premise to BB theory. It does so by applying the relative uniformity assumption that the alleged zero event eventually ontologically progressed from the compressed alleged sub-microscopic chaos to bloom/expand into all of the present observable order, more than it models the Biblical record evidence for the existence of Jehovah, the maximal Biblical god designer.
-Attributed to Buzsaw Message 53

The explain to them any scientific investigation that explains the existence of things qualifies as science and as an explanation
-Attributed to Dawn Bertot Message 286

Does a query (thats a question Stile) that uses this physical reality, to look for an answer to its existence and properties become theoretical, considering its deductive conclusions are based against objective verifiable realities.
-Attributed to Dawn Bertot Message 134


This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by Alias, posted 09-15-2013 2:48 PM Alias has not yet responded

    
Alias
Inactive Member


Message 78 of 185 (706694)
09-16-2013 4:34 PM
Reply to: Message 76 by PaulK
09-16-2013 4:05 PM


Re: a test for honesty.
Respong to 3rd point for now, on cell. In v 40 Jacob separated the young and faced the others toward Laban's. There were three sets. The young, old, and laban's. Your point does not add up. The young were separate from Laban's. And I think it's just as bad to add in meaning as it is to take out a verse. Either way you get interpretation.

Edited by Alias, : Err


Thanks
Alias :-)

FYI:

"Imagination is more important than knowledge." -Albert Einstein

"One of the saddest lessons of history is this: if we've been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We're no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It is simply too painful to acknowledge, even to ourselves, that we've been taken. Once you give a charlatan power over you, you almost never get it back" - Carl Sagan -Demon Haunted World

"The whole history of science has been the gradual realization that events do not happen in an arbitrary manner, but that they reflect a certain underlying order, which may or may not be divinely inspired." -Stephen Hawking

"Before God we are all equally wise and equally foolish." -Albert Einstein


This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by PaulK, posted 09-16-2013 4:05 PM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 81 by PaulK, posted 09-16-2013 4:55 PM Alias has responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 79 of 185 (706695)
09-16-2013 4:35 PM
Reply to: Message 75 by Alias
09-16-2013 4:03 PM


Re: a test for honesty.
Actually I have cleared it up, vs 40 contradicts the con cheat interpretation. How could Jacob have access to laban's colored flock to con laban in v 40, to seperate them from laban's colored flock, if laban removed his colored flock in v 35 and cheated Jacob from removing them?

Verse 40 requires that the speckled cattle belong to Laban. You cannot seem to address this. Secondly, Jacob does not need access to Laban's sheep merely to have his own sheep face in their direction. So no problem is presented here.

Both verse 36 and verse 40 contain items that you simply cannot address without giving up your interpretation. Verse 36 explicitly says that Jacob is tending the rest of the sheep, which means sheep without any coloring. You have no way around that.

You also cannot have Jacob take the colored sheep in verse 35 and then still have them belong to Laban in verse 40.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I believe that a scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy.
Richard P. Feynman

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by Alias, posted 09-16-2013 4:03 PM Alias has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 80 by Alias, posted 09-16-2013 4:37 PM NoNukes has not yet responded

  
Alias
Inactive Member


Message 80 of 185 (706696)
09-16-2013 4:37 PM
Reply to: Message 79 by NoNukes
09-16-2013 4:35 PM


Re: a test for honesty.
There are three sets of flock. Ref to my last post to paulk..

Thanks
Alias :-)

FYI:

"Imagination is more important than knowledge." -Albert Einstein

"One of the saddest lessons of history is this: if we've been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We're no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It is simply too painful to acknowledge, even to ourselves, that we've been taken. Once you give a charlatan power over you, you almost never get it back" - Carl Sagan -Demon Haunted World

"The whole history of science has been the gradual realization that events do not happen in an arbitrary manner, but that they reflect a certain underlying order, which may or may not be divinely inspired." -Stephen Hawking

"Before God we are all equally wise and equally foolish." -Albert Einstein


This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by NoNukes, posted 09-16-2013 4:35 PM NoNukes has not yet responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 14343
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 81 of 185 (706697)
09-16-2013 4:55 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by Alias
09-16-2013 4:34 PM


Re: a test for honesty.
quote:

Respong to 3rd point for now, on cell. In v 40 Jacob separated the young and faced the others toward Laban's. There were three sets. The young, old, and laban's.

Perhaps you would like to show that this is in the text, because I can't see any such division.

quote:

Your point does not add up. The young were separate from Laban's.

The lambs are striped and black and on the spot and could be seen as Laban's at that point. That seems rather better than asserting that the "con explanation" doesn't fit with chapters that see Laban conning Jacob and Jacob complaining that he's been conned !

quote:

And I think it's just as bad to add in meaning as it is to take out a verse. Either way you get interpretation.

That's a very simplistic view. We have a verse - or part of a verse - that fits poorly with the rest of the story. Surely it is better to regard that verse as suspect rather than to try to warp the rest of the story to fit with it.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by Alias, posted 09-16-2013 4:34 PM Alias has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 82 by Alias, posted 09-16-2013 5:13 PM PaulK has responded

    
Alias
Inactive Member


Message 82 of 185 (706702)
09-16-2013 5:13 PM
Reply to: Message 81 by PaulK
09-16-2013 4:55 PM


Re: a test for honesty.
OK. Point 1, Jacob takes the young separated them by them self (group 1). Then the others (group 2) were facing Laban's (group 3). 1 group alone, others (group 2) facing Laban's (group 3).

Point 2, no ref point 1

Point 3, merely opinion.

Edited by Alias, : Err


Thanks
Alias :-)

FYI:

"Imagination is more important than knowledge." -Albert Einstein

"One of the saddest lessons of history is this: if we've been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We're no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It is simply too painful to acknowledge, even to ourselves, that we've been taken. Once you give a charlatan power over you, you almost never get it back" - Carl Sagan -Demon Haunted World

"The whole history of science has been the gradual realization that events do not happen in an arbitrary manner, but that they reflect a certain underlying order, which may or may not be divinely inspired." -Stephen Hawking

"Before God we are all equally wise and equally foolish." -Albert Einstein


This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by PaulK, posted 09-16-2013 4:55 PM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 84 by PaulK, posted 09-16-2013 6:02 PM Alias has responded

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 83 of 185 (706706)
09-16-2013 5:56 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by Alias
09-13-2013 7:40 PM


In a later message you wrote:

But I am interpreting it to support biblical thought that a con by god's servant didn't happen

You're talking about a guy, Jacob, who wore fur on his hands to trick his father into thinking that he was his older brother so that he could steal his birthright. Read Genesis 27.

The "con" he does to Laban is in retaliation to Laben cheating him on his wages (Laban also tricked Jacob into marrying his older daugheter when he really loved the younger one). Its not nearly as bad as lying to your dad for an inheritance, and Laban was a jerk first anyways, so there's really no need to save Jacob from this one.

I agree with you that it isn't at all clear who took what animals from which flock and which one's were who's afterwards. But that is beside the point.

Jacob performed a "breeding experiment" by having the animals look at patterned wood while they mated so that they would have patterned offspring.

I think that stems from the idea that what the animals are looking at when they breed can affect what their offspring will look like.

Do you have any argument against that?

And this has nothing to do with bashing the Bible or helping atheists. Too often we get the attitude that the Bible is erroneous. I think this is just another example of something that it got wrong.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by Alias, posted 09-13-2013 7:40 PM Alias has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 85 by Alias, posted 09-16-2013 6:08 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 14343
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 84 of 185 (706707)
09-16-2013 6:02 PM
Reply to: Message 82 by Alias
09-16-2013 5:13 PM


Re: a test for honesty.
quote:

OK. Point 1, Jacob takes the young separated them by them self (group 1). Then the others (group 2) were facing Laban's (group 3). 1 group alone, others (group 2) facing Laban's (group 3).

I notice that you haven't quoted the text here, which is hardly showing justification from the text.

Also this is just a little misleading. Your Group 2 also belongs to Laban. Group 3 is only the "streaked and dark" animals that Laban still owns.

quote:

Point 2, no ref point 1

Point 1 doesn't address the facts that - according to the story - Laban cheated Jacob over his marriage, and that Jacob later complained of multiple other instances.

quote:

Point 3, merely opinion.

Rather more than that. Can you provide any reason to justify rewriting the story just because one verse doesn't fit very well ?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by Alias, posted 09-16-2013 5:13 PM Alias has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 86 by Alias, posted 09-16-2013 6:12 PM PaulK has not yet responded

    
Alias
Inactive Member


Message 85 of 185 (706708)
09-16-2013 6:08 PM
Reply to: Message 83 by New Cat's Eye
09-16-2013 5:56 PM


That's all side noise. We can't show w/o a doubt that the story reads Jacob was conning laban. This thread is really about biblical eugenics. Can't be shown w/o a doubt. :-)

Thanks
Alias :-)

FYI:

"Imagination is more important than knowledge." -Albert Einstein

"One of the saddest lessons of history is this: if we've been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We're no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It is simply too painful to acknowledge, even to ourselves, that we've been taken. Once you give a charlatan power over you, you almost never get it back" - Carl Sagan -Demon Haunted World

"The whole history of science has been the gradual realization that events do not happen in an arbitrary manner, but that they reflect a certain underlying order, which may or may not be divinely inspired." -Stephen Hawking

"Before God we are all equally wise and equally foolish." -Albert Einstein


This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by New Cat's Eye, posted 09-16-2013 5:56 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 87 by PaulK, posted 09-16-2013 6:13 PM Alias has responded
 Message 89 by New Cat's Eye, posted 09-16-2013 6:24 PM Alias has responded

  
Alias
Inactive Member


Message 86 of 185 (706709)
09-16-2013 6:12 PM
Reply to: Message 84 by PaulK
09-16-2013 6:02 PM


Re: a test for honesty.
Paul I'll do that just for you when I get home to my PC. Thx for admitting 40 does not fit. It makes it much easier for me.

Thanks
Alias :-)

FYI:

"Imagination is more important than knowledge." -Albert Einstein

"One of the saddest lessons of history is this: if we've been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We're no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It is simply too painful to acknowledge, even to ourselves, that we've been taken. Once you give a charlatan power over you, you almost never get it back" - Carl Sagan -Demon Haunted World

"The whole history of science has been the gradual realization that events do not happen in an arbitrary manner, but that they reflect a certain underlying order, which may or may not be divinely inspired." -Stephen Hawking

"Before God we are all equally wise and equally foolish." -Albert Einstein


This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by PaulK, posted 09-16-2013 6:02 PM PaulK has not yet responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 14343
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 87 of 185 (706710)
09-16-2013 6:13 PM
Reply to: Message 85 by Alias
09-16-2013 6:08 PM


quote:

That's all side noise. We can't show w/o a doubt that the story reads Jacob was conning laban

I read Jacob as using trickery to overcome Laban's cheating in this case.

But indeed the point of the thread is that the staves are supposed to cause the unmarked sheep and goats to bear speckled or black offspring - and that this is so reliable that Jacob can throw in some selective breeding as well so that he gets the best of the lambs.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by Alias, posted 09-16-2013 6:08 PM Alias has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 88 by Alias, posted 09-16-2013 6:19 PM PaulK has responded

    
Alias
Inactive Member


Message 88 of 185 (706712)
09-16-2013 6:19 PM
Reply to: Message 87 by PaulK
09-16-2013 6:13 PM


Reliable to you and those that agree with u. Hence interpretation

Thanks
Alias :-)

FYI:

"Imagination is more important than knowledge." -Albert Einstein

"One of the saddest lessons of history is this: if we've been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We're no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It is simply too painful to acknowledge, even to ourselves, that we've been taken. Once you give a charlatan power over you, you almost never get it back" - Carl Sagan -Demon Haunted World

"The whole history of science has been the gradual realization that events do not happen in an arbitrary manner, but that they reflect a certain underlying order, which may or may not be divinely inspired." -Stephen Hawking

"Before God we are all equally wise and equally foolish." -Albert Einstein


This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by PaulK, posted 09-16-2013 6:13 PM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 90 by PaulK, posted 09-16-2013 6:27 PM Alias has responded

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 89 of 185 (706713)
09-16-2013 6:24 PM
Reply to: Message 85 by Alias
09-16-2013 6:08 PM


It doesn't matter at all if Jacob was conning Laban. Please just stop talking about that altogether.

This thread is really about biblical eugenics.

Exactly. And the Bible says that if you put striped branches in front of mating goats than that will cause their offspring to be striped.

Can't be shown w/o a doubt.

Oh for fuck's sake. Does your argument really boil down to: Hurr, you can't prove that! lol

This isn't youtube, grow up already or gtfo.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by Alias, posted 09-16-2013 6:08 PM Alias has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 91 by Alias, posted 09-16-2013 6:28 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 14343
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 1.6


(1)
Message 90 of 185 (706714)
09-16-2013 6:27 PM
Reply to: Message 88 by Alias
09-16-2013 6:19 PM


quote:

Reliable to you and those that agree with u. Hence interpretation

Verses 41-42 seem pretty clear. Jacob puts the branches in when the better animals are mating and takes them away when the lesser stock are mating. The outcome is that Jacob gets the best animals and Laban the worse. And by the agreement with Laban the animals Jacob gets must be speckled or spotted or dark. The implications are obvious.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by Alias, posted 09-16-2013 6:19 PM Alias has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 93 by Alias, posted 09-16-2013 7:07 PM PaulK has responded

    
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