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Author Topic:   CNN on Religious blogs
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 16 of 31 (708414)
10-09-2013 7:09 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by yenmor
10-06-2013 3:57 AM


Re: Is It Possible?
yenmor writes:
Do you follow the pattern? Each culture I listed did not believe in a god that is immediately right in front of them, but they believe in a god that is just outside their understanding.
So does this mean that we humans assume that our understanding will someday exceed that of a belief in a God outside our understanding? It almost seems as if we insist that for a God to be real or worthy of our worship He/She/It needs to present Himself in front of us!
I do not dismiss the possibility of a god. What I do not subscribe to is the type of god that needs worshiping at the threat of hell fire.
Perhaps you wont allow for the possibility of a God who is in control of your destiny.... and for the record, I don't worship God because of a threat of hellfire....I freely worship. No threats or promises of gifts need apply.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by yenmor, posted 10-06-2013 3:57 AM yenmor has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by ringo, posted 10-10-2013 12:32 PM Phat has not replied
 Message 18 by onifre, posted 10-10-2013 1:24 PM Phat has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 17 of 31 (708468)
10-10-2013 12:32 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by Phat
10-09-2013 7:09 PM


Re: Is It Possible?
Phat writes:
So does this mean that we humans assume that our understanding will someday exceed that of a belief in a God outside our understanding?
Understanding always exceeds belief. There always can be something beyond our understanding but belief has a very poor track record of predicting what our next level of understanding will be.
Phat writes:
It almost seems as if we insist that for a God to be real or worthy of our worship He/She/It needs to present Himself in front of us!
Of course. That's only the first step.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Phat, posted 10-09-2013 7:09 PM Phat has not replied

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 2951 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


(1)
Message 18 of 31 (708471)
10-10-2013 1:24 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by Phat
10-09-2013 7:09 PM


Re: Is It Possible?
I don't worship God because of a threat of hellfire....I freely worship. No threats or promises of gifts need apply.
Oh yeah, you say that after the fact. You're a Christian. So there is the thrat of hell fire and there is a reward for believing. That is engrained in your brain. Whether you like it or not, your decisions about belief and worship are influenced by those threats and rewards.
How many god/s that don't threaten hell fire or offer rewards do you also worship? None? Seems rather odd that you worship one of the only ones that does AND is the one shared by others in your geographical location.
- Oni

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Phat, posted 10-09-2013 7:09 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by Faith, posted 10-10-2013 1:39 PM onifre has replied
 Message 20 by Phat, posted 10-10-2013 1:51 PM onifre has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 19 of 31 (708472)
10-10-2013 1:39 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by onifre
10-10-2013 1:24 PM


Re: Is It Possible?
Phat says rewards and punishments don't enter into his worshiping God, and I just want to say that's the case for me too. When I first believed it was in a rather generic "God" who I understood to be the creator of all things and omnipresent, omniscient and omnipotent, but I had very little idea of who He was, what the Bible said about Him, and I had no real knowledge of Jesus Christ at that time either. I was just amazed and thrilled to know that there was a God after all, and I loved Him whoever He was just for being there. I often feel that way still, after years of learning about Him. Hell never entered into it, and the only reward I think of is finally getting to be with Him.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by onifre, posted 10-10-2013 1:24 PM onifre has replied

Replies to this message:
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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 20 of 31 (708475)
10-10-2013 1:51 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by onifre
10-10-2013 1:24 PM


God Locator
Oni writes:
How many god/s that don't threaten hell fire or offer rewards do you also worship? None? Seems rather odd that you worship one of the only ones that does AND is the one shared by others in your geographical location.
There is only one God, Onifre. Humans can conjure up as few(0) or as many(polytheism) as they want...it matters not. Christianity flourishes in all cultures and in all geographic locations.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by onifre, posted 10-10-2013 1:24 PM onifre has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by AZPaul3, posted 10-10-2013 2:15 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 24 by onifre, posted 10-10-2013 4:25 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


(2)
Message 21 of 31 (708480)
10-10-2013 2:15 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by Phat
10-10-2013 1:51 PM


Re: God Locator
Christianity flourishes in all cultures and in all geographic locations.
So do Hindu and Islam.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by Phat, posted 10-10-2013 1:51 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by Faith, posted 10-10-2013 2:59 PM AZPaul3 has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 22 of 31 (708495)
10-10-2013 2:59 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by AZPaul3
10-10-2013 2:15 PM


Re: God Locator
Phat was answering the accusation that Christianity is culture bound.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by AZPaul3, posted 10-10-2013 2:15 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by AZPaul3, posted 10-10-2013 6:30 PM Faith has not replied

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 2951 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


(1)
Message 23 of 31 (708506)
10-10-2013 4:21 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by Faith
10-10-2013 1:39 PM


Re: Is It Possible?
I can't argue about your individual form of belief. But Hell and salvation are the strong marketing tools in old Christianity that paved the way to todays control of western culture.
- Oni

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by Faith, posted 10-10-2013 1:39 PM Faith has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by Diomedes, posted 10-10-2013 4:29 PM onifre has not replied

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 2951 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


(1)
Message 24 of 31 (708507)
10-10-2013 4:25 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by Phat
10-10-2013 1:51 PM


Re: God Locator
There is only one God, Onifre.
That is a fear tactic also found in the Bible. A threat from the god in jewish mythology that he was the one true god.
Christianity flourishes in all cultures and in all geographic locations.
Not in all cultures. There are plenty of indigenous people who have never heard of Christianity.
And if by "flourishes" you mean exists in a tiny minority, then maybe. But frankly, there are places where Christianity is on the decliine. Like, oh I don't know, America.
- Oni
Edited by onifre, : No reason given.
Edited by onifre, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
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Diomedes
Member
Posts: 995
From: Central Florida, USA
Joined: 09-13-2013


Message 25 of 31 (708508)
10-10-2013 4:29 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by onifre
10-10-2013 4:21 PM


Re: Is It Possible?
But Hell and salvation are the strong marketing tools in old Christianity that paved the way to todays control of western culture.
In addition, Christianity also preyed (prayed??) on our human and societal tendency towards altruism. So not only did you want to 'save' yourself from hellfire, you wanted to save those you cared about. It was an absolutely brilliant marketing ploy and worked quite effectively.
Nowadays, while sects of Christianity focus on hell in different ways, the notion of hell is still a strong archetype in Christian doctrine. But even if hell itself is de-emphasized, most if not all Christians believe in some form of divine judgement in the afterlife. So even if they claim their beliefs are not dictated by the threat of damnation, they are cognizant of some level of judgement after they die.

"Our future lies not in our dogmatic past, but in our enlightened present"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by onifre, posted 10-10-2013 4:21 PM onifre has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by GDR, posted 10-10-2013 6:51 PM Diomedes has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 26 of 31 (708523)
10-10-2013 6:30 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by Faith
10-10-2013 2:59 PM


Re: God Locator
Phat was answering the accusation that Christianity is culture bound.
Yes, Faith, I know. Phat's use of the word "culture" was misplaced. All religion is culture-bound. The "culture" in question may be small (village, neighborhood, family) but most people grow up believing the religion this "culture" force fed them in childhood rather than by feat of individual intellect. Thus, in every larger "culture," as per Phat's usage, every religion thrives in all cultures and in all geographic locations. And they are all still culture-bound.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by Faith, posted 10-10-2013 2:59 PM Faith has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 27 of 31 (708526)
10-10-2013 6:51 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by Diomedes
10-10-2013 4:29 PM


Re: Is It Possible?
Diomedes writes:
Nowadays, while sects of Christianity focus on hell in different ways, the notion of hell is still a strong archetype in Christian doctrine. But even if hell itself is de-emphasized, most if not all Christians believe in some form of divine judgement in the afterlife. So even if they claim their beliefs are not dictated by the threat of damnation, they are cognizant of some level of judgement after they die.
I don't think anyone did a better job of explaining the concept of hell than did C S Lewis. Here is a quote from that tremendous allegory concerning hell called "THe Great Divorce".
quote:
There are only two kinds of people in the end: those who say to God, "Thy will be done," and those to whom God says, in the end, "Thy will be done." All that are in Hell, choose it. Without that self-choice there could be no Hell. No soul that seriously and constantly desires joy will ever miss it. Those who seek find. Those who knock it is opened.
Essentially he is saying that those who choose to retain a life that is self focused will be free to go that route which is hell and life separated from God. Those that choose the life based on the "Golden Rule" will choose that life which is life with God.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by Diomedes, posted 10-10-2013 4:29 PM Diomedes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by Tangle, posted 10-11-2013 3:52 AM GDR has not replied
 Message 29 by Diomedes, posted 10-11-2013 11:11 AM GDR has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(5)
Message 28 of 31 (708545)
10-11-2013 3:52 AM
Reply to: Message 27 by GDR
10-10-2013 6:51 PM


Re: Is It Possible?
GDR writes:
I don't think anyone did a better job of explaining the concept of hell than did C S Lewis. Here is a quote from that tremendous allegory concerning hell called "THe Great Divorce".
CS Lewis's best mate JRR Tolkein did the best job of explaining Orks and Ents too.
They used to sit together in the Eagle & Child pub in Oxford and talk about their fantasies.
CS Lewis has no more knowledge about the fantasy of heaven and hell than Tolkein did about Hobbiton. He's just making it up! It's not based on anything he actually knows.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by GDR, posted 10-10-2013 6:51 PM GDR has not replied

  
Diomedes
Member
Posts: 995
From: Central Florida, USA
Joined: 09-13-2013


Message 29 of 31 (708605)
10-11-2013 11:11 AM
Reply to: Message 27 by GDR
10-10-2013 6:51 PM


Re: Is It Possible?
I would actually argue that 'Dante's Inferno' is probably the best overall description of hell. It went into extreme detail when explaining how the damned would exist in the various planes of hell, as he envisioned them.
Much of the notions of hell that exist in Christianity today actually have their origins in some of the early Greek and Egyptian mythologies. The concept of the afterlife in Greek mythology for example had Hades ruling the underworld, but within that place, the most 'damned' would be thrown into the pit of Tartarus, which was the baseline for the concept of suffering for past transgressions.
Tartarus is actually mentioned by name in the Bible as well, demonstrating the cross-over of various religious beliefs:
quote:
Peter 2:4. "God did not spare the angels when they sinned, but cast them into Tartarus and committed them to pits of darkness, reserved for judgment"
What is fascinating is it shows the origin of the 'fallen angel' myth in Christianity as being actually attributed to the fall of the Titans in Greek mythology, as they were the ones cast into the pit, along with various other ancient deities referenced in Greek lore.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by GDR, posted 10-10-2013 6:51 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by GDR, posted 10-12-2013 10:08 AM Diomedes has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 30 of 31 (708675)
10-12-2013 10:08 AM
Reply to: Message 29 by Diomedes
10-11-2013 11:11 AM


Re: Is It Possible?
Diomedes writes:
I would actually argue that 'Dante's Inferno' is probably the best overall description of hell. It went into extreme detail when explaining how the damned would exist in the various planes of hell, as he envisioned them.
I guess I was looking for the best explanation of hell from a Christian perspective. I’ll still go with Lewis.
Diomedes writes:
Much of the notions of hell that exist in Christianity today actually have their origins in some of the early Greek and Egyptian mythologies. The concept of the afterlife in Greek mythology for example had Hades ruling the underworld, but within that place, the most 'damned' would be thrown into the pit of Tartarus, which was the baseline for the concept of suffering for past transgressions.
It is my contention that as God continues to work through human hearts and imagination our understanding of His nature becomes clearer and more focused. It is obvious that in the OT writing in particular that there is an overlap between the monotheistic Jews and their pagan neighbours.
Diomedes writes:
Tartarus is actually mentioned by name in the Bible as well, demonstrating the cross-over of various religious beliefs:
quote:
Peter 2:4. "God did not spare the angels when they sinned, but cast them into Tartarus and committed them to pits of darkness, reserved for judgment"
What is fascinating is it shows the origin of the 'fallen angel' myth in Christianity as being actually attributed to the fall of the Titans in Greek mythology, as they were the ones cast into the pit, along with various other ancient deities referenced in Greek lore.
I looked through a number of translations and I couldn’t find one that is like yours which actually mentioned Tartarus by name. However, I can see that the implication is there regardless. It is interesting to consider what if anything the ancient mythologies have to tell us. In one sense the idea of fallen angels could easily be seen to be a metaphor for just what Lewis was talking about when we actually choose hell.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by Diomedes, posted 10-11-2013 11:11 AM Diomedes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by Diomedes, posted 10-12-2013 11:11 AM GDR has not replied

  
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