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Author Topic:   Which animals would populate the earth if the ark was real?
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 961 of 991 (709738)
10-29-2013 3:32 PM
Reply to: Message 956 by JonF
10-29-2013 8:57 AM


Re: Uniformity assumptions...
Right on both. A 4500 year half life is a million times shorter than reality and results in decay rates one million times faster than reality.
And yes if we included a neutron capture cross section for this reaction an even larger flux would be required.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I believe that a scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy.
Richard P. Feynman
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 956 by JonF, posted 10-29-2013 8:57 AM JonF has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 962 of 991 (709747)
10-29-2013 4:28 PM
Reply to: Message 958 by PurpleYouko
10-29-2013 11:32 AM


Re: Uniformity assumptions...
"Whence came bad number"
I appreciate your helpful attempt to bail me out by finding some possible units in which I could be right.
but actually I just misread a graph plotting neutron energy instead of neutron count.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I believe that a scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy.
Richard P. Feynman
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 958 by PurpleYouko, posted 10-29-2013 11:32 AM PurpleYouko has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 963 by Mutwa, posted 10-30-2013 1:32 AM NoNukes has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 966 of 991 (709786)
10-30-2013 8:11 AM
Reply to: Message 964 by mindspawn
10-30-2013 7:29 AM


Re: This so bad it is disrespectful.
Slight increases change decay sightly, what would a complete blockout of the mystery effect do? Interesting to contemplate.
Like might be the case when dating moon rocks? Or meteors? Why not look this stuff up and tell us about the anomalous dating problems that have turned up?
Seriously. We've sent radioactive materials into space for the purposes of powering up devices on space craft. Has there been any evidence of million fold increases in radioactivity?
I'd also point out that even the varying decay rates that you are relying on are measured by increased radioactivity of the samples.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I believe that a scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy.
Richard P. Feynman
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 964 by mindspawn, posted 10-30-2013 7:29 AM mindspawn has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 973 of 991 (709810)
10-30-2013 11:32 AM
Reply to: Message 968 by PurpleYouko
10-30-2013 9:27 AM


I see a disconnect
mindspawn writes:
The assumption that this effect would be slight during past periods of strong magnetic fields appears to me just an assumption with no actual empirical foundation. Slight increases change decay sightly, what would a complete blockout of the mystery effect do? Interesting to contemplate.
PurpleYouko writes:
I agree completely. We cannot make any such assumption. in fact I would assume only that whatever affect we are seeing will be proportional to whatever the sun is doing. I would expect a really big solar event to slow radioactive decay more than a small event. I have no idea if the correlation is linear or not.
And from the article....
quote:
When the Earth is farther away, we have fewer solar neutrinos and the decay rate is a little slower," Jenkins said. "When we are closer, there are more neutrinos, and the decay a little faster
I'm going to comment on the disconnect between your comment which makes perfect sense, and mindspawn's comment which makes no sense whatsoever, yet with which you just expressed agreement. In particular, I note that your two comments are not about the same thing at all.
Assuming that there is some mysterious effect in the sun affects decay rates, yes it is possible that the effect would increase with increased activity in the sun.
However, that is not the same thing as suggesting that a completely effective magnetic field could possibly massively increase decay rates on earth.
If decay rates increase with solar activity, (and doggone it, that's what Jenkins says is observed) why would expect them to increase even more with a stronger magnetic field around the earth? Mindspawn is looking for an effect that is the exact opposite of the effect that is actually observed. I see that you also have talked about an opposite correlation to the one that Jenkins says is observed.
That is the reason why he/she is proposing theories whereby the sun can produce particles such as neutrons or produce some other secondary effect that slow down decay rates without killing us.
It turns out that dating moon rocks produces dates of 4.4 billion years. The moon has a puny magnetic field and such has been the case for something like 3.5 billion years. Meteor rocks have been dated at 4.6 billion years and those things are not even in the vicinity of a planet before they reach other.
In other words we have evidence that the effect mindspawn is talking about does not exist.
Sure. Let's be cautious about the extent of the effect the sun might have on decay rates. But let's not be buffoons about it either.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I believe that a scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy.
Richard P. Feynman
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 968 by PurpleYouko, posted 10-30-2013 9:27 AM PurpleYouko has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 974 by PurpleYouko, posted 10-30-2013 11:58 AM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 977 of 991 (709829)
10-30-2013 12:45 PM
Reply to: Message 974 by PurpleYouko
10-30-2013 11:58 AM


Re: I see a disconnect
mindspawn writes:
would a complete blockout of the mystery effect do? Interesting to contemplate.
The thought crosses my mind that he might be alluding to the question of what would happen if the sun should stop it's activity altogether? Would decay rates speed up? maybe. If so then by how much
Why should that thought cross your mind? He said "blockout" by an increased magnetic field of the earth blocking the effects of radiation reaching the earth and not "blackout". Mindspawn wants decay rates to be slow now and rapid in the past.
To be abrupt about it, the described effect as explained by Jenkins is an increase of decay rates when the sun is closer to the earth, and not a decrease in decay rates due to more solar activity or more neutrions.
Is there any evidence or experiment suggesting that increased solar activity results in decreased decay rates? Or that decreased solar activity actually increases decay rates? Because neither is consistent with the claims from the actual experiment as I understand it.
Guess that kind of debunks the hypothesis that the solar wind has anything to do with it. Ah well.
Except that the operation of atomic clocks has nothing to do with decay rates of radioactive material. So you can keep right on speculating about an effect that to the best of my knowledge has never been observed.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I believe that a scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy.
Richard P. Feynman
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 974 by PurpleYouko, posted 10-30-2013 11:58 AM PurpleYouko has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 979 by PurpleYouko, posted 10-30-2013 1:02 PM NoNukes has replied
 Message 980 by PaulK, posted 10-30-2013 1:07 PM NoNukes has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 982 of 991 (709851)
10-30-2013 1:31 PM
Reply to: Message 979 by PurpleYouko
10-30-2013 1:02 PM


Re: I see a disconnect
The drop in decay rates prior to a solar flare is unconnected to any indication of concurrent increased solar activity. So far, there is no evidence of anything that by its presence reduces decay rates.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I believe that a scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy.
Richard P. Feynman
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 979 by PurpleYouko, posted 10-30-2013 1:02 PM PurpleYouko has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 983 by PurpleYouko, posted 10-30-2013 1:49 PM NoNukes has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 984 of 991 (709861)
10-30-2013 2:16 PM
Reply to: Message 981 by JonF
10-30-2013 1:10 PM


Re: I see a disconnect
If it was not clear, I meant to mention that we send into space nuclear batteries that provide energy by radioactive decay.
If either shielding or solar radiation sped up that decay rate we'd know about it.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I believe that a scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy.
Richard P. Feynman
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 981 by JonF, posted 10-30-2013 1:10 PM JonF has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 985 by PurpleYouko, posted 10-30-2013 2:34 PM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

  
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