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Author Topic:   The Awesome Republican Primary Thread
nwr
Member
Posts: 6409
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 1246 of 1485 (711575)
11-20-2013 1:43 PM
Reply to: Message 1233 by AZPaul3
11-19-2013 6:29 PM


Re: Citizens United does suck, but ...
The remedy, unfortunately, is the long hard slog of Constitutional Amendment.
That should not be needed.
Congress can establish a new form of incorporation that restricts political campaigning for corporations.
A change in corporate taxes could strongly encourage migration to the new form of incorporation.

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1233 by AZPaul3, posted 11-19-2013 6:29 PM AZPaul3 has replied

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AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8548
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.0


Message 1247 of 1485 (711603)
11-20-2013 4:02 PM
Reply to: Message 1246 by nwr
11-20-2013 1:43 PM


Re: Citizens United does suck, but ...
Congress can establish a new form of incorporation that restricts political campaigning for corporations.
A change in corporate taxes could strongly encourage migration to the new form of incorporation.
I like it. Voluntary restriction of rights.
Question, if you were given the choice between favorable tax treatment in exchange for giving up your rights or retaining your rights under harsher tax measures, would you do it?
As a new non-rights corporation where you could lessen your tax burden on the majority of your business wouldn’t you, openly or surreptitiously, keep a much smaller full-rights corporate brother for the political workings?
Now the biggie. If you were the court and the claim came to you that plaintiff was being fined for choosing to exercising his constitutional rights would you agree to this new scheme?

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Replies to this message:
 Message 1248 by jar, posted 11-20-2013 4:07 PM AZPaul3 has replied
 Message 1253 by RAZD, posted 11-20-2013 10:48 PM AZPaul3 has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 420 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(1)
Message 1248 of 1485 (711604)
11-20-2013 4:07 PM
Reply to: Message 1247 by AZPaul3
11-20-2013 4:02 PM


Re: Citizens United does suck, but ...
Another option is for SCOTUS to find that the Right of Free Speech belongs only to individuals and use the precedent that the right has been expanded in the past to include specified groups.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1247 by AZPaul3, posted 11-20-2013 4:02 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1249 by AZPaul3, posted 11-20-2013 4:28 PM jar has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8548
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.0


Message 1249 of 1485 (711608)
11-20-2013 4:28 PM
Reply to: Message 1248 by jar
11-20-2013 4:07 PM


Re: Citizens United does suck, but ...
Another option is for SCOTUS to find that the Right of Free Speech belongs only to individuals and use the precedent that the right has been expanded in the past to include specified groups.
What section of the constitution would allow the court to legislate this restriction on it's own volition? And if it has such a right then what would keep the court from likewise finding cause to restrict your rights?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1248 by jar, posted 11-20-2013 4:07 PM jar has replied

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 Message 1250 by jar, posted 11-20-2013 4:46 PM AZPaul3 has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 420 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(2)
Message 1250 of 1485 (711610)
11-20-2013 4:46 PM
Reply to: Message 1249 by AZPaul3
11-20-2013 4:28 PM


Re: Citizens United does suck, but ...
There are three Supreme Laws of the Land, the Constitution is just one. If the SCOTUS decides that corporations do not have the Right of Free Speech then corporations do not have the Right of Free Speech.
There is nothing in the US that prevents the SCOTUS for restricting my rights.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1249 by AZPaul3, posted 11-20-2013 4:28 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1251 by AZPaul3, posted 11-20-2013 5:50 PM jar has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8548
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.0


Message 1251 of 1485 (711619)
11-20-2013 5:50 PM
Reply to: Message 1250 by jar
11-20-2013 4:46 PM


Re: Citizens United does suck, but ...
There are three Supreme Laws of the Land, the Constitution is just one.
As far as the states and municipalities of the nation are concerned, yes. But on a federal level remember that Marbury v. Madison did more than establish judicial review. It also made the Constitution superior to both statute and treaty.
There is nothing in the US that prevents the SCOTUS for restricting my rights.
Sure there is. Article II, Section 4
If the SCOTUS decides that corporations do not have the Right of Free Speech then corporations do not have the Right of Free Speech.
Now you are getting into Judicial Temperament. The Court binds itself by oath to preserve, protect and defend the Constitution. If the president and the senate do their job right in selection, the members of the court will abide by the intent as well as the letter of the constitution.
Regardless of all this you are correct. Korematsu v. United States is the glaring example of where the rule of emotion trumped the rule of law.
Edited by AZPaul3, : changed Article

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 Message 1250 by jar, posted 11-20-2013 4:46 PM jar has replied

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jar
Member (Idle past 420 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 1252 of 1485 (711630)
11-20-2013 8:23 PM
Reply to: Message 1251 by AZPaul3
11-20-2013 5:50 PM


Re: Citizens United does suck, but ...
Not just emotion but many other ways, for example if Congress does not do their duty but rather packs the court for political reasons.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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 Message 1251 by AZPaul3, posted 11-20-2013 5:50 PM AZPaul3 has seen this message but not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1430 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 1253 of 1485 (711637)
11-20-2013 10:48 PM
Reply to: Message 1247 by AZPaul3
11-20-2013 4:02 PM


dark money
Congress can establish a new form of incorporation that restricts political campaigning for corporations.
A change in corporate taxes could strongly encourage migration to the new form of incorporation.
I like it. Voluntary restriction of rights.
Make it a condition for any non-profit organization or company: if you don't pay taxes then you don't mess with politics. Neither funding of campaigns nor lobbying of congress allowed.
This would go a long way to solving the dark money ...
Enjoy

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1247 by AZPaul3, posted 11-20-2013 4:02 PM AZPaul3 has replied

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 Message 1254 by Jon, posted 11-20-2013 11:15 PM RAZD has seen this message but not replied
 Message 1255 by AZPaul3, posted 11-21-2013 2:12 AM RAZD has seen this message but not replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 1254 of 1485 (711638)
11-20-2013 11:15 PM
Reply to: Message 1253 by RAZD
11-20-2013 10:48 PM


Re: dark money
Make it a condition for any non-profit organization or company: if you don't pay taxes then you don't mess with politics. Neither funding of campaigns nor lobbying of congress allowed.
Why limit it to non-profits?

Love your enemies!

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AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8548
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.0


Message 1255 of 1485 (711641)
11-21-2013 2:12 AM
Reply to: Message 1253 by RAZD
11-20-2013 10:48 PM


Re: dark money
Make it a condition for any non-profit organization or company: if you don't pay taxes then you don't mess with politics. Neither funding of campaigns nor lobbying of congress allowed.
Thus the Homeowner's Association can no longer sponsor a debate of School Board candidates then endorse a favored candidate.
And again, by what constitutional provision may congress invalidate constitutional rights for any segment of society?
Only an amendment will do. Without that there will be strong and justifiable challenges.
SCOTUS may go along with such a scheme, in error as we have seen the court do many times. Then 30, 50, 100 years from now the court will see its error and overturn the precedent as we have also seen the court do many times.
The only viable fix I can see is an amendment baring corporations of certain size (the mega-corps) from lobbying congress, contributing to political campaigns and sponsoring or funding political ads.
Even here, you just know the money will find a legal way around the restrictions.

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Replies to this message:
 Message 1256 by jar, posted 11-21-2013 8:51 AM AZPaul3 has replied
 Message 1258 by ringo, posted 11-21-2013 12:19 PM AZPaul3 has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 420 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(6)
Message 1256 of 1485 (711653)
11-21-2013 8:51 AM
Reply to: Message 1255 by AZPaul3
11-21-2013 2:12 AM


Re: dark money
The real solution is to build an informed and educated electorate, particularly in the Classic sense of those terms.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1255 by AZPaul3, posted 11-21-2013 2:12 AM AZPaul3 has replied

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AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8548
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.0


Message 1257 of 1485 (711698)
11-21-2013 12:16 PM
Reply to: Message 1256 by jar
11-21-2013 8:51 AM


Political Sesame Street
The real solution is to build an informed and educated electorate, particularly in the Classic sense of those terms.
Oh I fully agree.
The problem is that in a nation where creationist universities are numerous, the illogic of religion runs rampant and the most popular television fare are vampires, zombies and faked-up "reality" shows, getting a constitutional amendment passed and ratified within the week seems considerably easier.
But you are right, again, so we do have to try.

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ringo
Member (Idle past 437 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 1258 of 1485 (711699)
11-21-2013 12:19 PM
Reply to: Message 1255 by AZPaul3
11-21-2013 2:12 AM


Re: dark money
AZPaul3 writes:
SCOTUS may go along with such a scheme, in error as we have seen the court do many times. Then 30, 50, 100 years from now the court will see its error and overturn the precedent as we have also seen the court do many times.
I'm glad to see the Supreme Court make errors. An infallible court would be a dangerous thing.
And I'm glad to see those errors corrected.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1255 by AZPaul3, posted 11-21-2013 2:12 AM AZPaul3 has replied

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AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8548
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.0


Message 1259 of 1485 (711710)
11-21-2013 12:59 PM
Reply to: Message 1258 by ringo
11-21-2013 12:19 PM


Re: dark money
An infallible court would be a dangerous thing.
But this world has an infallible Pope and that's not a dangerou ...
OK, bad example.

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jar
Member (Idle past 420 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 1260 of 1485 (711713)
11-21-2013 1:12 PM
Reply to: Message 1259 by AZPaul3
11-21-2013 12:59 PM


Re: dark money
Also not true.
Papal infallibility is very limited.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1259 by AZPaul3, posted 11-21-2013 12:59 PM AZPaul3 has seen this message but not replied

  
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